Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

FREE WILL?​

Through recent neuroscience studies, we have revealed some interesting traits of 'free will'.

The 'instinctual' or involuntary and unconscious response of the neurological system precedes the 'intentional' or voluntary and conscious decisions of the test subjects' responses to the stimuli presented in the studies.

(Example: The teacher places a test on your desk. Your arm is told by the autonomous system to begin reaching towards the desk for the pencil before you consciously think of the pencil.)

Some of the evaluators of the results would claim the evidence points towards free will not existing. That your actions and reactions supersede any decision you make towards those actions or reactions.

Others (whom I agree with) believe that the results do not eradicate the idea of free will. They would suggest that the results merely point out that free will is not a factor within the moment to moment of daily decisions, rather they exist in the long term. You can plan with a determined effort to alter the current path you are on.

(Example: I smoke cigarettes, I don't have to pick up a cigarette every time I feel the 'itch' for nicotine. I could choose to ween myself off or plan to quit cold turkey, but if I do not put forth effort towards a determined plan, I am disregarding my ability of free will.

Then there's the idea that the past has already occurred and is no longer necessarily the reality. As well as the idea that the undetermined future can be altered to a nigh infinite degree and thus not yet reality. To us mortal carbon-based creatures, only the moment of 'now' is the true reality of our existence.

So... does free will actually exist? I would argue 'yes' but, I'm the first to admit how wrong I've been in the past and how there's % probability I will be wrong again on various topics.

The following is a decent (opinion) documentary on YouTube regarding the subject:

Closer To Truth - Big Questions in Free Will

At best, this works by a few seconds.

And it certainly does NOT mean that someone can know the future in the way that TB claims God can.

Also, not a single actual scientific article provided as support. Just a video on YouTube. Anyone can put anything on YouTube. Your video means nothing. Provide actual science please.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

At best, this works by a few seconds.

And it certainly does NOT mean that someone can know the future in the way that TB claims God can.

Also, not a single actual scientific article provided as support. Just a video on YouTube. Anyone can put anything on YouTube. Your video means nothing. Provide actual science please.

Oof, no need to be so uptight. Let me respond in similar form:

I doubted your desire to go through the full study.... Here, I'll type 5 words in my browser... Scroll down to the 'dot-org'... and affectively do what you should have if you had any inclination to look into it =

Free Will Archives - John Templeton Foundation

Do think of how we communicate with one another, unless condescension is your intention.

 

[samtonga43]

it is possible that most people have an incorrect belief in God because of people that have been said to be messengers from God, but actually weren't.

True.

 

[Tiberius]

Oof, no need to be so uptight. Let me respond in similar form:

I doubted your desire to go through the full study.... Here, I'll type 5 words in my browser... Scroll down to the 'dot-org'... and affectively do what you should have if you had any inclination to look into it =

Free Will Archives - John Templeton Foundation

Do think of how we communicate with one another, unless condescension is your intention.

From the white paper linked to in that article...

"Libet and his colleagues found that when participants were asked to perform a series of endogenouslygenerated spontaneous wrist flexes as they felt the desire or intention to do so and report the timing of their awareness of their intention to flex, EEG readings showed brain preparation for the flexing, the RP, prior to the participants’ reported awareness of their intention to flex (1983). Participants completed dozens of trials, or task time intervals in which they made a movement. The beginning of each trial was signaled by a beep. Post flexing, participants reported the time of their awareness of their intention to flex in each trial by indicating where a moving spot was on a modified clock face when they were first aware of their intention to flex. This modified clock -- now referred to as a Libet clock -- makes a complete revolution every 2.56 seconds. Averaging over 40 trials, the average time of RP ramp up for spontaneous trials was about a half second (517 ms) before recorded movement. In contrast, the average reported time of first awareness of intention to move, labeled ‘W,' occurred about 200 ms (206 ms) prior to movement (‘M’). Libet and colleagues found, then, that the RP preceded the reported time of conscious intention to move by a third of a second."

So, as I said, this works by a few seconds at best. And it doesn't allow the future to be known, as it doesn't take into account events that have no conscious thought, such as natural phenomena.

So I don't think this can be presented as a mechanism by which God could know what a person will do in the future.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Okay, @Tiberius I think I see... Your initial disregard/defensiveness was because you thought I was defending or supporting @Trailblazer's beliefs?
On the contrary, she (trailblazer) may very well be less receptive of the idea of my post than you were, as it is often seen as an assault on the personal God of many faiths and the gift of free will provided by Him/Her.

I was simply trying to help inform any readers of the intriguing nature of 'free will' and that it may not be what was previously believed. As you cannot make choices (or at most have very little conscious control) on the fly, rather we primarily live within the limits of our past experiences and/or biases. I also pointed that some of us don't believe this to rule out 'free will', as you can still alter the (analogical) 'geodesic curve' your life's path is currently headed along.

If I were to make sense of it, I would say it is primarily for survival. If we had to fully think out every choice we made, the hesitation could very well cost life or limb. Especially if you consider our ancient past when we had to survive alongside predators with natural weapons such as claws and fangs.

 

[Sheldon]

Free Will Archives - John Templeton Foundation

Do think of how we communicate with one another, unless condescension is your intention.

Ok, as politely as possible in light of the previous post, can I just say the Templeton foundation is not an impartial or (entirely) scientific source, it was set up by the founder Sir John Marks Templeton, to promote and scientifically evidence religious spirituality. He was one of the world's greatest philanthropists but also devout Christian, who was convinced science could evidence spirituality and other aspects of his beliefs.

Whilst is does fund scientific research, I'd be wary of using the foundation's website as a sole and objective source.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your own arguments would suggest that no one at all could be proven to have had communication from God, even if they really were a messenger from God.

That puts them all into the same category, doesn't it? Specifically, the "This person claims they are a messenger from God but can't prove it" category.

No Messenger can "prove" that He received communication from God.
What tells us that they were a Messenger of God is the evidence.

If it didn't affect you, you wouldn't have said, "I am not into your joking around about a serious topic. You can at least TRY to understand what I am saying" in post 5966.

What I said had nothing to do with your opinion of me, I was just trying to get you to understand what I consider a serious topic, God. As I said, the Omnipotent God does whatever He pleases and does nothing He does not choose to do.

If that's the case, then God could not have known UNTIL IT WAS CHOSEN either.

God has always known what you will choose because God is all-knowing.
The all-knowing God has foreknowledge of what you will choose BEFORE you choose it.

Yes you did. You said, "Good, that will save me the trouble." It carries with it the very strong implication that the full sentence would have been, "Good, that will save me the trouble of repeating my lousy explanation."

No, that was your addition, I never conceded that my explanation was lousy.

 

[CG Didymus]

If I've not been fed a line... from what I've heard;

When Kim Jong Un arrives in town, everyone appears to worship him as a god. Most do not actually believe their totalitarian dictator is a god, but they do believe that lying to live is better than dying to be honest. Wish our species didn't do some of the things we do.

Most of us are forced into believing a religion and joining it. But, I think, we're still fed lots of lines. Just with Christianity, there's so many. People are told a certain interpretation and given reasons why it's true and they fall, or I mean they, come to believe it. Now we add the Baha'i Faith to the mix. They tell us things and give us reasons why we should believe those things. Some believe the line and some reject it.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Most of us are forced into believing a religion and joining it. But, I think, we're still fed lots of lines. Just with Christianity, there's so many. People are told a certain interpretation and given reasons why it's true and they fall, or I mean they, come to believe it. Now we add the Baha'i Faith to the mix. They tell us things and give us reasons why we should believe those things. Some believe the line and some reject it.

I think there are benefits that such ideas can provide. Religion isn't the only avenue to the same benefits, but it can provide benefits none-the-less.

When evangelism and/or force is used, I think any benefit that a belief in mysterious things could provide is lost and even turns them into potential detriments to the individual who believes. Then, of course that is the avenue that many wicked leaders/rulers used as a method to excuse their maniacal wars and xenophobic genocidal endeavors.

 

[Tiberius]

Okay, @Tiberius I think I see... Your initial disregard/defensiveness was because you thought I was defending or supporting @Trailblazer's beliefs?

Far from it. There is very little that TrailBlazer and I agree on.

My position is that if God exists and is able to know the future, then we can not also have free will. We can't, after all, have free will if we are predestined to do only what God has foreseen we will do.

I was simply trying to help inform any readers of the intriguing nature of 'free will' and that it may not be what was previously believed. As you cannot make choices (or at most have very little conscious control) on the fly, rather we primarily live within the limits of our past experiences and/or biases. I also pointed that some of us don't believe this to rule out 'free will', as you can still alter the (analogical) 'geodesic curve' your life's path is currently headed along.

I don't think that the source you linked to completely removes free will. We can still weigh up options, deliberate over what choice is the best.

 

[Tiberius]

No Messenger can "prove" that He received communication from God.
What tells us that they were a Messenger of God is the evidence.

All people who are considered to be messengers from God have the same evidence, even the ones who are not actually messengers from God.

What I said had nothing to do with your opinion of me, I was just trying to get you to understand what I consider a serious topic, God. As I said, the Omnipotent God does whatever He pleases and does nothing He does not choose to do.

I do not care if you consider it a serious topic or not.

God has always known what you will choose because God is all-knowing.
The all-knowing God has foreknowledge of what you will choose BEFORE you choose it.

Then I am locked into doing ONLY what God has foreseen and I can't possibly act any differently.

So how is that free choice?

And don't give me any of that garbage about, "God's foreknowledge doesn't make you do it," because I'm not saying that it does, and I'm getting really annoyed by your constant strawman even after I tell you I don't hold that position.

No, that was your addition, I never conceded that my explanation was lousy.

You never denied it though.

 

[Trailblazer]

My position is that if God exists and is able to know the future, then we can not also have free will. We can't, after all, have free will if we are predestined to do only what God has foreseen we will do.

God exists and is able to know the future but we also have free will. We can, after all, have free will since we can choose whatever we want to choose, and whatever we choose will be what the all-knowing God has always known we would choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

All people who are considered to be messengers from God have the same evidence, even the ones who are not actually messengers from God.

Saying that all people who are considered to be messengers from God have the same evidence is the fallacy of hasty generalization.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. Hasty generalization - Wikipedia

Then I am locked into doing ONLY what God has foreseen and I can't possibly act any differently.

So how is that free choice?

You will do what God has foreseen, but AS YOU SAID God's foreknowledge doesn't make you do it.
You will use your free will to CHOOSE to do what God has foreseen, whatever that is.

You can choose between A, B, C, and D.

If you choose A, that will be what God had foreseen.
If you choose B, that will be what God had foreseen.
If you choose C, that will be what God had foreseen.
If you choose D, that will be what God had foreseen.​

Whatever you choose will be what God had foreseen.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

God exists and is able to know the future but we also have free will. We can, after all, have free will since we can choose whatever we want to choose, and whatever we choose will be what the all-knowing God has always known we would choose.

The only way that He knows the future and we aren't predestined to follow that one future, is if there were an infinite of futures (or universes) for every choice we can make, and every possibility that can be played out. So, logically that would only lead me to think you believe in the multiverse theory?

 

[Tiberius]

God exists and is able to know the future but we also have free will. We can, after all, have free will since we can choose whatever we want to choose, and whatever we choose will be what the all-knowing God has always known we would choose.

Repeating the same contradictory statement over and over is not going to make it any more rational.

 

[Tiberius]

Saying that all people who are considered to be messengers from God have the same evidence is the fallacy of hasty generalization.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. Hasty generalization - Wikipedia

You have a nasty habit of posting definitions that are not required. It makes you look arrogant and condescending. Stop it.

And the evidence IS the same - a claim that they are a messenger from God.

You will do what God has foreseen, but AS YOU SAID God's foreknowledge doesn't make you do it.
You will use your free will to CHOOSE to do what God has foreseen, whatever that is.

You can choose between A, B, C, and D.

If you choose A, that will be what God had foreseen.
If you choose B, that will be what God had foreseen.
If you choose C, that will be what God had foreseen.
If you choose D, that will be what God had foreseen.​

Whatever you choose will be what God had foreseen.

You don't get it. What God has foreseen COMES BEFORE I make the choice.

If God foresees A, then I must choose A.
If God foresees B, then I must choose B.
If God foresees C, then I must choose C.
If God foresees D, then I must choose D.

Whatever God has foreseen will be what I choose, and I can't escape that.

And if you come back with that, "But God's foreknowledge is not what forces you to do it" or any garbage like that, I'll report you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Repeating the same contradictory statement over and over is not going to make it any more rational.

Repeating the same false statement over and over is not going to make it any more true.

 

[Trailblazer]

And the evidence IS the same - a claim that they are a messenger from God.

I guess you have not been listening to what I have been saying all these months. A claim is not evidence of any kind.

No, the evidence is NOT THE SAME. True messengers of God have evidence that support their claims whereas false prophets have jack squat.

You don't get it. What God has foreseen COMES BEFORE I make the choice.

If God foresees A, then I must choose A.
If God foresees B, then I must choose B.
If God foresees C, then I must choose C.
If God foresees D, then I must choose D.

Whatever God has foreseen will be what I choose, and I can't escape that.

You don't get it. Whatever God foresaw is what you will choose.

If God foresaw A, then you will choose A.
If God foresaw B, then you will choose B.
If God foresaw C, then you will choose C.
If God foresaw D, then you will choose D.

Whatever God foresaw will be what you choose. It could be A, B, C, or D.

And if you come back with that, "But God's foreknowledge is not what forces you to do it" or any garbage like that, I'll report you.

Any more threats and I am out of here.

 

[Tiberius]

Repeating the same false statement over and over is not going to make it any more true.

You claim it's false, but you've been unable to show that.

If you claim it's false for no reason, I'll reject your claim for no reason. Consider it rejected.

 

[Tiberius]

I guess you have not been listening to what I have been saying all these months. A claim is not evidence of any kind.

That's all you've been able to provide.

No, the evidence is NOT THE SAME. True messengers of God have evidence that support their claims whereas false prophets have jack squat.

And what evidence is this? I've asked you before what a True Messenger From God (TM) would have that can't possibly be had by someone who wasn't a True Messenger, but you have been unable to give a good answer.

You don't get it. Whatever God foresaw is what you will choose.

If God foresaw A, then you will choose A.
If God foresaw B, then you will choose B.
If God foresaw C, then you will choose C.
If God foresaw D, then you will choose D.

Whatever God foresaw will be what you choose. It could be A, B, C, or D.

Yes, if God foresees A, then I WILL choose A, and I WILL NOT choose B, or C, or D.

Any more threats and I am out of here.

Then maybe you can try treating me with a little respect and stop repeatedly using that strawman against me when I have repeatedly told you that is not my position.