Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

It's still irrelevant. God knew what shirt would be worn, whether by me or you or anyone else, so as soon as he knew, we were bound to wear that particular shirt.

No, you were only bound to wear that shirt after you chose to wear it. God knew you would choose it because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's the most ridiculous argument ever.

In Jurassic Park, the lawyer jumps out of the car and runs for the toilet. I know he will do that as soon as I start watching the movie. So he has no free choice,. I know he MUST run for the toilet. But if it's not his choice and it's not mine (I'm not making him run for the toilet, after all), then what's making him run?

Perhaps it's those same fairies that are making him run!

He chose to run to the toilet, nobody made him.

But there was only one possible outcome once God had foreseen it, wasn't there? If God foresees that I will wear the red shirt, then wearing the red shirt is the only possible outcome.

No, there was more than one possible outcome until you chose the red shirt. If you had chosen the blue shirt God would have foreseen that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He chose to run to the toilet, nobody made him.

The writers did. Just as in your belief God makes you do things. He has to according to you if you reason consistently.

No, there was more than one possible outcome until you chose the red shirt. If you had chosen the blue shirt God would have foreseen that.

Now you are contradicting yourself again.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are contradictory.

You claim you do not need any objective evidence for any supernatural claims. You have also stated that the idea of objective evidence for supernatural claims is "drop dead illogical."

That is what I said and it is not contradictory.

Yet you then state you have objective evidence that the Baha'i faith is true.

The Baha'i faith, however, makes supernatural claims. Specifically, "God exists," and "God sends messengers."

If you claim to have objective evidence for the Baha'i faith, you are saying you have objective evidence that the supernatural claims of the Baha'i faith. And you said that was impossible and illogical.

I have objective evidence that the Baha'i Faith is true, but I do not have objective evidence for the supernatural claims because there can be no objective evidence for supernatural claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

And if the evidence is real and valid, then everyone who examines it should reach the same conclusion, right?

Of course everyone would not reach the same conclusion even if the evidence is real and valid. That is logically impossible because they would have to be clones in order to reach the same conclusion.

Then your private "verification" that you can't share with anyone else doesn't count as actual verification.

It is actual verification because I verified it. Religious beliefs require no cross-checking.

A comment about gore on the banks of the Rhine isn't really specific. Is that about WW1, WW2 or the Kaiser? Also, were there actual dead bodies lined up along the banks of the Rhine in the way this describes?Maybe if he'd said something about the trenches in France, or the air raids over England, that kind of thing, it would be more convincing. But as it is, the prophecy fails point five of my criteria (you can see the list in my signature).

I was wrong about it being about WWI and WWII and @Truthseeker9 corrected me:

Correction on gore on the banks of the Rhine:

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

In one of His Tablets written before the first World War (1914–1918), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explained that Bahá’u’lláh’s reference to having seen the banks of the Rhine “covered with gore” related to the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871), and that there was more suffering to come. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi states that the “oppressively severe treaty” that was imposed on Germany following its defeat in the first World War “provoked ‘the lamentations [of Berlin]’ which half a century before, had been ominously prophesied.”
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas", 90

Contrary to what is popularly believed among Baha'is, the "another turn" is World War I and the oppressive treaty after that was the "lamentations of Berlin".

No one noticed that "we have seen you" is in the past tense.

#2619 Truthseeker9

So what? People of all religions say that history proves their religion true. You're not making any claim that followers of any other religion haven't made. I see no reason to think you are right when they have been wrong.

The religions were not wrong. Only the man-made doctrines of those religions were wrong.

This doesn't actually address my point.

If it actually describes reality in some way, then it is not open to interpretation.

Not all scriptures describe reality, as some scriptures are metaphorical. For example, the following is is one metaphorical meaning of the story of Adam and Eve.

“Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.” 8 Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.

This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 126

You can read the whole chapter on this link: 30: ADAM AND EVE

No one is disputing those claims. The point you seem to not realise is that the supernatural claims of the religion can be false even if the things you mentioned are true.

That is possible since they can never be proven true.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it's great that the Baha'i Faith dumps Satan out of the equation, but that still leaves this supposedly all-loving God that created humans with the ability and desire to kill each other. And then gave them the brains to figure out better ways to do it. I'm sure he appreciates that you don't blame him.

I do not blame God for creating man with a spiritual nature and a material nature and the free will to choose between the two natures, because that is just, since God revealed teachings and laws for people to follow in order that they follow their spiritual nature.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

Moreover, all imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, let me try... God knows what choice the guy makes. He turns right. He knows this because this unknowable, invisible, unprovable God exists in a spiritual realm and can see the beginning and the end of everything.... Which includes everything this guy has ever done. God has already it happen. Now the guy comes to the street corner and thinks, "Should I turn left or right?" The choice is all his. He might choose right he might choose left. Today he turns right.

The next day he thinks, "You know... I went right yesterday. Let me do something different." So he goes left and gets hit by a bus. Up in heaven he asks God, "Why didn't you warn me. You know all, so why didn't you stop me from going left?" God says, "Listen, I'm not going to interfere with your free-will. You're on your own and you can make any choice you want. But remember when your Momma used to tell you to look both ways before you cross the street. Well, that was me that got her to tell you that. Besides, I know what you were looking at on your phone. You should be ashamed of yourself."

Oh, and something else you can answer... That's a fictional story. Is it metaphorical just because it is fiction?

That story sounds about right, and no, it is not metaphorical just because it is fiction because all fiction is not metaphorical.

 

[ratiocinator]

Humans are not apes , there is many dissimilar characteristics .

Simply factually incorrect. We are part of the family Hominidae, the "great apes".

Besides the point , physics didn't create the ape either...

Baseless assertion. There is plentiful evidence that physics did create apes (via chemistry, biochemistry, and biology).

...so what did if not a God ?

Even if it was a complete mystery (which it isn't), that's not the way logic works. If you want to claim a god it's up to you to define it and give us some reason to believe it. This is basic logic: the burden of proof. Just saying we haven't provided an alternative would be an argument from ignorance fallacy.

You really could do with learning some science and logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we determine the future God help us.

That is a good point, and God did exactly that, He helped us when He sent Baha'u'llah, and God is still helping us from the unseen realm.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

Please note what the following quote says.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

I would think God is the one that has determined the future. 'Cause if it's up to humans... we'll never get there.

God is the one who is going to help us get there, as noted above. We do not do anything by our own power alone; without the assistance of God we cannot do anything.

“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 249-250

And I still didn't catch up. This threads going way too fast. Good night.

I might catch up but only because I went through this very fast and only skimmed some posts that were not to me and ignored some that were to me. A girl can only do so much!

 

[ratiocinator]

Quite clearly an inaccuracy I have put in bold . No , people think space itself is expanding when space has no physicality . People also say there is nothing outside of the expansion ,not even space .

You being unable to understand something does not make it inaccurate. Of course space has physicality. It has physical characteristics, like being three-dimensional and having a specific geometry. The theory that covers the expansion of space, which is, as you quoted, a metric expansion, not an expansion into something else, has not only made multiple successful predictions but is also required to make the GPS system work by taking into account the distortion of space-time that is the Earth's gravitational field.

And again, the "nothing outside" doesn't mean there is some nothingness, it means that outside doesn't refer to a place (and space itself might be infinite anyway). You appear to be stuck in 19th century physics.

 

[KWED]

Thou shall not kill !
Is that a false statement or something God would want if there is a God ?

"And God spake all these words, saying...
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

So even god makes false statements about religion.

 

[KWED]

Proof in physics is a very shallow concept . Doesn't reality disprove physics ?

What are you on about? Physics describes reality.

Seems like more than your soul is broken.

 

[Sheldon]

No .. if G-d is not omniscient, then how could any prophet be informed [ by G-d ] of any future events, such as the signs of the last days?

If an omniscient deity exist, how come 3 separate adherents can't decide what it means or wants?

 

[Sheldon]

"And God spake all these words, saying...
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

So even god makes false statements about religion.

That's omniscient deities for you, never clear about anything. Even trifling details like murder.

 

[KWED]

Meaningless drivel..

Careful with that irony, it burns.

You have already said that you don't believe in free-will.

No I haven't

You are fooling yourself. You are just making arguments that seem smart to you, while in fact, they aren't logically sound.

Either you think we have free-will, or you don't
Which is it?.

Pay attention. I will say this again, but slowly...
There is no "absolute" free will.
In reality we have partial free will, depending on the context.
Under a god with infallible omniscience who wills and decrees the outcome of all events, we have no free will.
Hope this helped.

 

[KWED]

Logical possibilities do not require evidence . If you cannot produce evidence to the contrary then it is always wise to keep an open mind . The possibility of a God is a real possibility because of the science shortfall in information .
Unless science can explain how energy can manifest from nothing there will always be the possibility of a God . Unless science can explain life and conscious beings there will be always the possibility of a God .

Why can't you just accept this possibility ?

The existence of some sort of non-specific supernatural force is a possibility, but highly unlikely given all the available evidence.
The existence of the gods of religion as described in scripture is not a possibility.

 

[Sheldon]

You will choose the one God knows but you could have chosen the other one and God would have known you would choose it.

If I can choose then clearly no deity exists that can know which ONE choice I will make.

 

[KWED]

There is such a God but He did not guide those people you mentioned. People can believe whatever they want to believe but that does not make it true.

So, how do you know if the voice in your head is really god, or just a psychotic event?
And what do you say to those who also use your explanation to justify their own claims of knowing god's will?

 

[Sheldon]

Careful with that irony, it burns.

No I haven't

Pay attention. I will say this again, but slowly...
There is no "absolute" free will.
In reality we have partial free will, depending on the context.
Under a god with infallible omniscience who wills and decrees the outcome of all events, we have no free will.
Hope this helped.

I already explained this to him and he ignored it, or didn't understand it. If you stub your toe, do you choose how much adrenalin your body releases? Or he could try going without sleep of course, even simpler and less painful.

The knots theists tie themselves in is sometimes hilarious.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So in this argument it is like God has seen that moment already played out and knows which direction the guy turns and what shirt he is wearing.

That's right, yes.

But, I hear religious people say that they planning on doing something, but only if it is God's will. They are including God in the choices they make. Does God actually get involved? Like if the person turns right he would have gotten hit by a bus, so God told him, in God's mystic way, to turn left.

Now, that's a very good point.
The argument about whether free-will and omniscience is mutually exclusive or not, is more about understanding WHY many people get it wrong.
[ about the apparent paradox ]

That is not the whole "story", however. There is more than our own free-will involved in the grand scheme of things.
Some people understand and ACCEPT that they are compatible.
They might also then suggest that it is then impossible for God to interact with a future that He already knows.

This is not the case. An infinite God, in this respect, is not so easily visualised. The concept of infinity raises all kinds of issues.

For example, There is the famous:-

infinity = infinity + 1, which needs further thought.

0 [ zero ] is also an infinite concept, and when we have a statement such as x = y/z, one has to be very careful that z is not equal to zero, as it then becomes complicated

If there is a God, and he actually cares about people that love him and pray to him, this is what I'd expect God to be doing. So the future isn't just that God knows what's going to happen, but knows what will happen if the wrong choice is made and he does try to intervene and communicate to his people what the right choice, to turn right or turn left would be. Do you believe this or in something like this?

Yes, of course I do. I don't think that prayer to God is futile, and He is not able to "intervene" in our affairs.