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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
These men received communication from God, ushered in a new religious cycle and established a true religion.
What religious cycle and which true religion did Abraham and Krishna usher and establish? And don't tell me that you don't care because you're a Baha'is and not whatever those other religions might be. This is your Baha'i claim.

Oh, and one of the messages Abraham got from this God was "Go kill your son." But then, you believe those Bible stories are fiction. But Abraham was a messenger of God? And if he was that means he was a messenger before there was a Baha'i Faith, so without using the Baha'i writings, can you show me why and how you think Abraham was a messenger of God and ushered in a new cycle and established a new religion? Since I doubt you can, let me answer for you, "I don't know, and I don't care." The Baha'i Faith says it. And you believe it. And that settles it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
A true religion? No; they established multiple religions that contradict each other. They all can't be right! Was Jesus the Christ right? Was Muhammad right? Or were some of the others you mentioned right; because the others must be wrong.

As I pointed out to you before, their messages contradict! They all can't be telling the truth.
Baha'is, and it might have been TB, said that the "original" message got lost. "Originally... all religions and their messengers had messages that did not contradict each other. Then people mucked them up. Here's an Abdul Baha quote...
The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ. The teachings of all the Prophets are the same in character. Now men have changed the teaching. If you look at the present practice of the Buddhist religion, you will see that there is little of the Reality left. Many worship idols although their teaching forbids it. – Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 63.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
One of the natures of God is that he is Omniscient which means he has unlimited knowledge and ability. If God is Omniscient, he does have the ability to deliver the message himself in a way that humans can understand it.
Flawed man is not equipped to receive an accurate message from an infinite God. The two are incompatible. The messengers were created as perfect mirrors so they could accurately give God's message. Flawed human beings can be inspired by God, but can't be completely accurate. That's my understanding, anyway.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Flawed man is not equipped to receive an accurate message from an infinite God. The two are incompatible. The messengers were created as perfect mirrors so they could accurately give God's message. Flawed human beings can be inspired by God, but can't be completely accurate. That's my understanding, anyway.
Fully agree with you :)
( Flawed man means one who has yet to see Gods truth) so it is not a negative in it self, it means man/woman would have to open up to the wisdom of God, and stop the attachments to this physical world. If not, God will be hidden for all time
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Fully agree with you :)
( Flawed man means one who has yet to see Gods truth) so it is not a negative in it self, it means man/woman would have to open up to the wisdom of God, and stop the attachments to this physical world. If not, God will be hidden for all time
Well, to me all are flawed except the Messengers with a capital M. Should have made messengers Messengers. None of us ever completely know God's truth, God's truth is infinite, so we can't know all of it.

Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 18:109

SAY: Should the sea become ink, to write the words of my Lord, the sea would surely fail ere the words of my Lord would fail, though we brought its like in aid.
Muhammad, "The Qur'an", 18.111

109. Say: “If the ocean were Ink (wherewith to write out) The words of my Lord, Sooner would the ocean be Exhausted than would the words Of my Lord, even if we Added another ocean Like it, for its aid.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 18.109
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Well, to me all are flawed except the Messengers with a capital M. Should have made messengers Messengers. None of us ever completely know God's truth, God's truth is infinite, so we can't know all of it.

Say: Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof to help.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 18:109

SAY: Should the sea become ink, to write the words of my Lord, the sea would surely fail ere the words of my Lord would fail, though we brought its like in aid.
Muhammad, "The Qur'an", 18.111

109. Say: “If the ocean were Ink (wherewith to write out) The words of my Lord, Sooner would the ocean be Exhausted than would the words Of my Lord, even if we Added another ocean Like it, for its aid.”
Muhammad , "The Holy Qur-an", 18.109
These verses you qoute are also seen in sufism :) in my understanding it means one has to experience it for one self, and not rely fully on the written word since words cant explain it all :) so only by combination of writing and experience can a seeker advance in wisdom from God.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
So you have the ability to communicate with God?
No.

My father spoke to my life as his owned status.

He told me our human brother the scientist has made the attack on life personal. His thesis even says he has.

He chose to assist me. I believe him as in healing I loved all my family and wanted them healed. Some times no healing. Just advice for the patient existed.

So I know it's real by personal experience.

Not by some other human telling me what they "think" it is. Whilst not changed bodily or physically theirselves.

Knowing father is personal.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
These verses you qoute are also seen in sufism :) in my understanding it means one has to experience it for one self, and not rely fully on the written word since words cant explain it all :) so only by combination of writing and experience can a seeker advance in wisdom from God.
That, too. The Word of God operates on different levels.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So, God could make them with a higher spiritual capacity but would rather not? Yeah, thousands of years of people fighting and killing each other like the lower natured animals. Great plan.
Human capacities vary but what is important is that we use the capacities we are given.

“And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As I pointed out to you before, their messages contradict! They all can't be telling the truth.
As I said before, the messages are not the original messages because they were corrupted by men, so that is why they contradict now, but they did not contradict before they were corrupted.
Again; if God has unlimited ability, that would mean he has the ability to communicate to humans in a way that we DO understand God directly.
No, God's abilities have nothing to do with this. It is all about human ability. God cannot make us understand because we do not have the ability.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Except for your prophets, The Bab and Baha'u'llah, how do you know those other ones were true messengers? Did you study them and find that to be true, or you're just going by what your religion tells you?
How could I know they were true Messengers from studying them? I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote because He had knowledge from God.
Again, if God is the creator, he purposely made humans with a lack of spiritual capacity.
Humans do not have a lack of spiritual capacity, we have a spiritual capacity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What religious cycle and which true religion did Abraham and Krishna usher and establish? And don't tell me that you don't care because you're a Baha'is and not whatever those other religions might be. This is your Baha'i claim.
It is only a Baha'i claim that there were different religious cycles but that does not mean I have to know all about every cycle.

41: THE UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Question.—What is the real explanation of the cycles which occur in the world of existence?

Answer.—Each one of the luminous bodies in this limitless firmament has a cycle of revolution which is of a different duration, and every one revolves in its own orbit, and again begins a new cycle. So the earth, every three hundred and sixty-five days, five hours, forty-eight minutes and a fraction, completes a revolution; and then it begins a new cycle—that is to say, the first cycle is again renewed. In the same way, for the whole universe, whether for the heavens or for men, there are cycles of great events, of important facts and occurrences. When a cycle is ended, a new cycle begins; and the old one, on account of the great events which take place, is completely forgotten, and not a trace or record of it will remain. As you see, we have no records of twenty thousand years ago, although we have before proved by argument that life on this earth is very ancient. It is not one hundred thousand, or two hundred thousand, or one million or two million years old; it is very ancient, and the ancient records and traces are entirely obliterated.

Each of the Divine Manifestations has likewise a cycle, and during the cycle His laws and commandments prevail and are performed. When His cycle is completed by the appearance of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. In this way cycles begin, end and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning. We have before stated proofs and evidences concerning this subject; there is no need of repetition.

Briefly, we say a universal cycle in the world of existence signifies a long duration of time, and innumerable and incalculable periods and epochs. In such a cycle the Manifestations appear with splendor in the realm of the visible until a great and supreme Manifestation makes the world the center of His radiance. His appearance causes the world to attain to maturity, and the extension of His cycle is very great. Afterward, other Manifestations will arise under His shadow, Who according to the needs of the time will renew certain commandments relating to material questions and affairs, while remaining under His shadow.

We are in the cycle which began with Adam, and its supreme Manifestation is Bahá’u’lláh.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 160-161

Abraham is associated with Judaism, Krishna with Hinduism. That is all I know.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
No, I believe God exists and I believe God has Messengers.
You have decided God exists so it is you that is master over God. Everyone is master of their own God because everyone that believes defines what God is and what God isn't. It is you that grants God his messengers by declaring them as being real and actual messengers, it is you that makes the ultimate decision.
 
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Kfox

Well-Known Member
As I said before, the messages are not the original messages because they were corrupted by men, so that is why they contradict now, but they did not contradict before they were corrupted.
So the original message of Jesus and the original message of Muhammad were in agreement? How do you know this?
No, God's abilities have nothing to do with this. It is all about human ability. God cannot make us understand because we do not have the ability.
I disagree; God's abilities has everything to do with this. If God can do anything, he can talk to me the same way you can talk to me. If God chooses to speak to me in a language I cannot understand, that is his fault not mine.
 
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