Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

[fantome profane]

Why tie up the existence of God with answers about christianity.

If one is wrong it doesn't mean the other is

You are not being fair. You are asking people about the first moment they decided. And the truth is that for a lot of religious people who became atheists the initial reason may not have been all that good. Bunyip is telling you about his thoughts when he was 7, because that is what you asked.

But as to why they remained atheists or why they are atheists now after they have had time to deeply consider the issue, that is a very different question.

 

[Revoltingest]

What about logical thinking ?

It's wonderful.
But we're limited by the validity of our premises, ie, I see nothing
which can lead me to a proof or disproof of the supernatural.
I can debunk some specific religious claims, but that's about all.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

Thanks for mentioning up my thread.

Similarly, I read your thread "errors in Quraan". I left the thread immediately after seeing the OP. I expected to see some actual material to discuss.

And by the way I didn't see anyone talking this bad about himself.

And by the way Mr "truthisnotyourenemy" I want to tell you one thing, truth is not you enemy.

I hope Allah guides you, have a nice day

Leaving my thread immediately was your loss!
Hopefully you'll take your head out of the sand one day and stop believing 7th century myths and fables..
Allah is a figment of ones imagination and therefore cannot guide me.
Have a nice day.

 

[LuisDantas]

And you should be wary of the errors present in believers' sincere faith as well, so I don't see any downsides.

For a person who says that inspiration has errors, and is following a religion, This means he didn't find errors.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm just not parsing this statement of yours. It has no meaning to me. I assume it needs some context.

Do you realize that this amounts to simply wanting to know better than the people themselves, on a matter that is so very personal?

I don't know if I understood what you wrote the proper way, but I would totally understand if someone isn't interested in this discussion or answering me.

No, I am interested in the discussion, but I think you are taking some very unadvisable premises there, and I think you should consider whether they should be taken if you want to understand things as they truly are.

That is a puzzling statement to behold. I wonder if you are aware of how free to learn about faiths (particularly Christianity, but definitely many others as well) Mr. T would be.

NO matter what the religion is, as children begin growing they are highly influenced by what their parents do or don't do. That was my point.

That is true enough. I still think it is unreasonable to saddle parents with the need to know better than their sons on such a strictly personal matter.

It is certainly no one's duty to encourage people into theism, all the more so when it is their own offspring!

How do you know that there was a start, or a cause for such a hypothetical start?

We can see that man is born and dies, and man cannot grow beyond a certain size in height and weight. All of life is similarly limited, and the earth, moon and stars likewise have a starting and end point. The life of a star or galaxy may be a very long period of time, but they are definitely limited in that they all have a starting and ending. The universe is a very large place but it is a finite space, and is not unlimited. No scientist has been able to bring a definite evidence that suggests the universe has no limits.

Does that mean anything beyond that science is not all-knowing? I don't think so.

So to suggest that it is infinite means we are going beyond the bounds of what we can rationally assess. Such a thought requires us to challenge ourselves to find any example in our world of perception that is unlimited, no matter how hard we search we cannot find such an example. All we can perceive is limited, finite.

Unless I am missing something, that only means that it will always be something of an open question. It in no way implies that the universe can't be infinite or eternal, much less that it has to have been created!

Even if we did, aren't you in essence claiming that God is a special exception just because? If he can be such an exception, why can't we cut the middledeity and make such a claim of exception the existence itself?

Because if something created a god, than he is not god.

As I see it, you are saying that you don't see any way to have an answer besides that appeal to exception and making a point of calling such exception "God".

A fair stance, I suppose. As long as it is understood that it is an arbitrary choice that no one has to ever agree with.

Problem is, there is no particularly coherent message, and miracles are neither reliable nor convincing in a religious sense.

Unless the miracle can be tested.

Even so. Why would miracles ever be important for a religion? Miracles carry and encourage no wisdom, no moral virtue.

As for convincing people that there is God, that is even more questionable.

Why would God want people to believe yet not make it so? Why resort to hiding himself only to them make a point of expecting belief?

Isn't the very existence of atheists evidence that there is no particular need to believe?

And if God does nonetheless exist and want to be acknowledged, how come it is all but impossible to reach an agreement about even the basics of what he wants, or what he is like?

Because life is a test. This life isn't all.

I see that you are not alone in believing in that. For all that anyone can tell that might conceivably be true.

Still... why assume so? I don't think that is very reasonable at all.

I'm certainly not going to just try and force myself into believing in that, much less advise anyone into doing so.

It would be, if nothing else, dangerous.

(I realize that I was not the person being asked, but anyway...)

I like receiving answers from anyone

Of course not. There is also making something worth with the time while we exist.

That involves mainly caring for the legacy we inherit from others, both deceased and living, and passing it forward and drawing purpose from it.

This is a small part. There is more. Like after life.

That I just won't agree with. I straight doubt that you are right on that point, nor would I much care even if I knew for a fact that you are right.

Afterlives hold no appeal whatsoever to me. They are a very weird idea.

Religions and the existence of God are not together to both fail or succeed in the same time.

What do you mean about the existence of God "failing" or "succeeding"?

If God existed and sent down a "way of life" or a "religion", than that should be the way it is right? In other words, there would be only one right religion.

If "Christianity" fails and "hindauism" fails, this doesn't mean there isn't God. This means the religions are wrong.

In all honesty, the lack of existence of a God can be established far earlier and more easily anyway, so that is true yet unimportant.

The existence of God is not supposed to be religiously important. It is just a rethorical and inspirational tool for religious purposes. A minor tool, and a fully optional one.

My experience mirrors his, and I must say that I don't remember you presenting anything new, nor convincing.

Then again, why even attempt to? It is not like it is important for any of us to believe in God except perhaps out of personal need.

Actually it is so much important.

If there is God, this means there is a purpose, a massage, right and wrong.

I take it you mean "message", but I guess that again I will simply not agree, not at all.

Morality is quite independent of the existence of God, to the point that theism is overall actually a hindrance to it, sometimes an fully developed trap even.

If you are interested in the subject, I can recommend you a booklet. I think what I am trying to say would be more clear. It is about 10 pages.

There is little chance of convincing me that belief in God is either desirable of its own or useful for moral or existential purposes, but sure, do as you will. You may PM me if you want.

 

[Lyndale]

Your words are a ping pong ball in motion.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well for me, I was raised in a Christian family. By the age of 7 or so I began to realise that God was imaginary just as Santa Clause had turned out to be. What made me lose my faith was that my doubts made me ask questions and the answers I got were either evasions, distortions or brush offs.

I had an enquiring mind and the world view Christianity presented simply did not correlate with reality.

Essentially though, I am an atheist for exactly the same reasons why adults don't believe in Santa.

Once upon a time I had the opportunity to interview lots of atheists, and one distinct 'type' stood out. The intelligent, inquisitive, no-BS child who saw from an early age that God was like Santa -- a story told to him by parents and culture.

Usually these kids (as adults anyway) had very high IQs.

Other atheists were also highly intelligent but for some reason had to struggle through late teenagehood or early adulthood before they could break away from the system.

But I never knew an atheist who went back to theism. Maybe they exist, but I never met one.

 

[Desert Snake]

Once upon a time I had the opportunity to interview lots of atheists, and one distinct 'type' stood out. The intelligent, inquisitive, no-BS child who saw from an early age that God was like Santa -- a story told to him by parents and culture.

Usually these kids (as adults anyway) had very high IQs.

Other atheists were also highly intelligent but for some reason had to struggle through late teenagehood or early adulthood before they could break away from the system.

But I never knew an atheist who went back to theism. Maybe they exist, but I never met one.

That's great, but there isn't any 'santa' element to my beliefs, never was.
So, when I say i'm a Xian, I doubt you even know what I mean.. these are just terms, they vary from group to group.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

That's great, but there isn't any 'santa' element to my beliefs, never was.

Sure. 'Santa' only applies to God if He has a body or a will (personality).

So, when I say i'm a Xian, I doubt you even know what I mean.. these are just terms, they vary from group to group.

I agree. It's why I reject all such labels.

 

[Lyndale]

Clarification ~ Christian means "Christ Like". "Christ Like" means "Like His Father". Together all contain the Holy Spirit of God inside them. It's what makes Us united together.

So, if a person, group, religion, organization, etc,. DOES NOT have the ATTRIBUTES OF the above, then that is NOT Christian.

Know the attributes of Jesus to know what a Christian is.
Know the Parable of the "tares" to know what a Christian isn't.

There's a difference.

 

[Sabour]

You are not being fair. You are asking people about the first moment they decided. And the truth is that for a lot of religious people who became atheists the initial reason may not have been all that good. Bunyip is telling you about his thoughts when he was 7, because that is what you asked.

But as to why they remained atheists or why they are atheists now after they have had time to deeply consider the issue, that is a very different question.

I am not sure I understood what you are hinting at

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not sure I understood what you are hinting at

As I understand it, he is saying that the initial reason for calling oneself an atheist may be different and worse from that for remaining one as one ages.

 

[Sabour]

It's wonderful.
But we're limited by the validity of our premises, ie, I see nothing
which can lead me to a proof or disproof of the supernatural.
I can debunk some specific religious claims, but that's about all.

Well considering that I am a muslim and I've put the Quraan into the test to see whether it is the word of God, I see that it passed.

That is the only proof would be reasonable to you.

But that is not the only way that I see that God exists.

Frankly, it is enough for me to look at the sky at night, observe the moon. But Of course my "fact" wasn't build up on that only.

 

[Revoltingest]

Clarification ~ Christian means "Christ Like". "Christ Like" means "Like His Father". Together all contain the Holy Spirit of God inside them. It's what makes Us united together.

So, if a person, group, religion, organization, etc,. DOES NOT have the ATTRIBUTES OF the above, then that is NOT Christian.

Know the attributes of Jesus to know what a Christian is.
Know the Parable of the "tares" to know what a Christian isn't.

There's a difference.

Question: If your stated religion is "I follow Christ only", then how on Earth did you wind up in Ohio?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well considering that I am a muslim and I've put the Quraan into the test to see whether it is the word of God, I see that it passed.
That is the only proof would be reasonable to you.
But that is not the only way that I see that God exists.
Frankly, it is enough for me to look at the sky at night, observe the moon. But Of course my "fact" wasn't build up on that only.

I suspect that you & I would use different tests.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well considering that I am a muslim and I've put the Quraan into the test to see whether it is the word of God, I see that it passed.

I wonder what you mean by that. I'm no Quran expert, granted. But what I saw of it does not seem to even attempt to be testable.

 

[Sabour]

Leaving my thread immediately was your loss!

Well let us talk about that

1- You said "Errors", I found one

2- You wrote like 10 lines about something you can say in 5-6 words.

3- If you took the time to read the verse from another translation, you would have seen the word whale.

4- You didn't even verify the word in Arabic.

5- I think nobody bought it in the first place. Why should I defend something that is so shallow and obvious.

Hopefully you'll take your head out of the sand one day and stop believing 7th century myths and fables.
Allah is a figment of ones imagination and therefore cannot guide me.
Have a nice day.

Do you know what is the difference between you and me?
I don't say anything unless I really mean it. When I said I hope Allah guides you, I truly do. When you say have a nice day, I doubt you meant it.

Regarding what you said about "figment of ones imagination", I am up for discussing that if you are interested.

 

[Alceste]

I understand that.



How about what you experience during your sleep? I mean dreams.

When I dream, I am still alive and my consciousness is still rooted in a physical body.

I found it weird that you mentioned the latter sentence. Because If God existed, then what I said would be logical.

This is why I think what I said is logical

Mankind is driven to satisfy his organic needs and his instincts, and without any form of criterion for right and wrong surely he will go astray. The annals of history are full of man’s oppression of man. Greed, selfishness, killing, monopoly, and vice are manifestations of man fulfilling his survival instinct. If man is prepared to go as far as killing others in satisfaction of his needs , then surely man is in need of control over his actions. Without a criterion for action the striving for satisfaction of mans needs will lead him to constant conflict with others. One man’s freedom is anothers slavery. God has not left man to his own devices, man has never been free to undertake his life in which ever way he feels best. It is wholly consistent with our perception of man as being limited, dependant and imperfect, that for man to bring his own way, his own system, would be false, due to man’s limited understanding of life. Man is always subject to bias, disparity, differences, contradictions and the influence of his current environment, hardly a basis for complete impartiality and absolute truth. Any man made system will suffer from these same bias,disparity, differences, contradictions and influence. The example of modern day politicians and their links with the business community serves as a reminder of how the supposedly impartial nature of the political function can be abused. The religiousness instinct within man serves as a reminder to us of how mankind can be diverted from his true goal in life. History shows us many instances of man worshipping the Sun, Stars, Fire, Stone idols, and more recently books, writers, leaders and material things. Faced with this strong instinct of dependence/sanctification man strives to satisfy this need, but without a system or clear guidance in this matter purely intuitive or instinctive acts of worship have led man astray. Man must use his mind to establish the source of the correct form of sanctification/worship. It is not possible for a limited being to comprehend an unlimited being, therefore the Creator has given mankind communication through a channel that is clear for him. God has sent Prophets and Messengers (Prophets with the divine law) to mankind to give guidance in all of our affairs. The Prophets were each given miracles which proved to mankind the authenticity of their Prophethood. So we see that Musa (Moses) was given the power of magic, when his staff was thrown down and turned to a snake devouring the staffs of the magicians. Or similarly Isa (Jesus) was given the ability to cure the sick. The miracle given to Muhammad (pbuh) was the Qur’an, the word of God.

Yeah, that's still rationalization. Adding more words doesn't turn it into logic. Here's an example of logic.

One answer believes the Quran is true and the Bible is false.

Zoogirl believes the Bible is true and the Quran is false.

Therefore, one or both of them are certainly wrong.

And so on.

Not youtube video not exercise. It is what I believe the word of God to be. It is the Quraan

As I say, I can not be convinced of anything except by empirical evidence. The Quraan is not empirical evidence, it's a book. Anyone can make false or mistaken claims in a book.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

As a lad I knew a kid who had an imaginary friend. I can't recall the names of either the kid or his friend, as this was over 30 years ago(I was but a wee lad). I found it strange and even a bit disturbing when he would talk to his friend and talk about his friend. Sometimes his mother would become quite cross with him when he blamed things on his imaginary friend.

This is really just pretext, lets fast forward a couple years, to the first time I encountered my great aunt(grammas sister) and with her, religion(I believe they were episcopalians). After a thorough dose of jesus this and holy that, my mind was racing. But what really stuck out was my friend from before..my Aunt had imaginary friends too!

Unfortunately I was a bit of a blunt kid lacking in tact..and I said as much, not to insult or anything negative, but because I thought it was cool. You can imagine the reaction, and my confusion. I think she chased me right out of the house that day.

Anyway my point here is that much of my fascination with religion probably stems from this incident, and to this day I still haven't found this particular grail:Why do some adults have imaginary friends?

I have read multiple versions of the christian bible back to front to back, studied history vis a vis abrahamic tradition, studied its source religions to the east and to the north, vedic tradition, Mithraism, asatru, the pantheons of the greeks and the romans, for thousands of hours. From this I have gained a ton of context and understanding into the human mind and psyche, into the foundation of politics and morality, and the human 'soul' as it were.

I have tried to believe, actively hanging around the salvation army church, inviting jehovahs to come in and have coffee, looked to the sky and asked for a sign..but I could not. It's never, not once, been plausible to me. I have never been able to separate the friend of that friend from my childhood from the friends of my Aunt, or the millions and billions like her.

 

[Sabour]

Can you elaborate on that? I'm just not parsing this statement of yours. It has no meaning to me. I assume it needs some context.

I am classifying inspiration as something written by someone.

I mean in my case, I am a Muslim, we believe that Quraan is the word of God.

Is it really the true word of God or just and inspiration written by someone?

Considering I found no errors, this means I believe that Quraan is the word of God.

And don't underestimate that because Quraan is of like 600 pages and about 6600 verses discussing many many things.

No, I am interested in the discussion, but I think you are taking some very unadvisable premises there, and I think you should consider whether they should be taken if you want to understand things as they truly are.

Well agree on that sometimes I lack a way But I have no bad intentions or questioning about anything. As a matter of fact I appreciate those who have their own thinking and are not blindly following.

And I know you are interested in discussion. It is good for both of us. I do feel the necessity of having a healthy discussion.

That is true enough. I still think it is unreasonable to saddle parents with the need to know better than their sons on such a strictly personal matter.

It is certainly no one's duty to encourage people into theism, all the more so when it is their own offspring!

Well I disagree on the second.

But I think that doesn't have a meaning at the moment unless we take a look at the religion at hand.

Does that mean anything beyond that science is not all-knowing? I don't think so.

Either science is not all knowing or science is pushing this away.I think theories will keep coming.

Unless I am missing something, that only means that it will always be something of an open question. It in no way implies that the universe can't be infinite or eternal, much less that it has to have been created!

As I said I think that theories would keep coming. But they are only theories, nothing proven

As I see it, you are saying that you don't see any way to have an answer besides that appeal to exception and making a point of calling such exception "God".

Well okay, let us add to that, which we previously mentioned, that all what we are perceiving is limited and finite.

And we know that everything "finite" or "limited" has a lifetime. Everything that has a lifetime need to be created. But at some point we have to reach the point that something was there by definition because if we kept on asking who created that, we will have endless questions, which is basically the same question.

This approach my not be convincing to you. This depends on what is the degree by which you take on logical thinking. And if you share the same thought of course.

Even so. Why would miracles ever be important for a religion? Miracles carry and encourage no wisdom, no moral virtue.

Prophets are important in religions in which God reveals to them his message and tells them to share it with people. People has history in doing right and wrong, killing, murdering, and transgress one another. For that reason there was a message and a way of life to be shared.

Through prophets this message can be shared. But If anyone comes to me and tells me I am a prophet, I would tell him prove it. How he would prove it, by a miracle.

As we sit here and speak, you find it not very important. But at that time, it was for these miracles that verified true prophets from false ones. So they were important so that people would follow the teaching and the prophets.

I see that you are not alone in believing in that. For all that anyone can tell that might conceivably be true.

Still... why assume so? I don't think that is very reasonable at all.

I'm certainly not going to just try and force myself into believing in that, much less advise anyone into doing so.

It would be, if nothing else, dangerous.

Well in Islam, you don't blindly follow. It is not just about faith.

It is about faith and reasoning. So you have to be convinced.

Even me as a Muslim when I hear something from a Sheikh that you must do this and this according to the Islam. It is part of my duty to go and check if what he is saying is right or not.

That I just won't agree with. I straight doubt that you are right on that point, nor would I much care even if I knew for a fact that you are right.

Afterlives hold no appeal whatsoever to me. They are a very weird idea.

Is this essential right now in our discussion, can we drop if for a while?

If yes I wish you would give me the right to bring it up again when it is necessary. At that point I don't think it is.

What do you mean about the existence of God "failing" or "succeeding"?

What I meant is that I often see some becoming atheists because "christianity" or "hinduism" didn't make sense for them.

My argument is if it wrong, this doesn't mean there isn't God. Maybe you were in the wrong place.

In all honesty, the lack of existence of a God can be established far earlier and more easily anyway, so that is true yet unimportant.

The existence of God is not supposed to be religiously important. It is just a rethorical and inspirational tool for religious purposes. A minor tool, and a fully optional one.

Nope. According to Islam, it is mentioned that for every age there is a prophet. The list of prophets I gave are those who are mentioned by name in the Quraan. There is a hadith saying that there are around 124 000 stepped foot on earth.

I take it you mean "message", but I guess that again I will simply not agree, not at all.

Morality is quite independent of the existence of God, to the point that theism is overall actually a hindrance to it, sometimes an fully developed trap even.

Don't mind me about the "e" and "a" mistakes as I always do it.

Religion is about all the people. I totally understand that some atheists have higher values than some people. But like in the 7th century, when people lived in the desert and the survival was for the fittest. Was that the case? I don't think

There is little chance of convincing me that belief in God is either desirable of its own or useful for moral or existential purposes, but sure, do as you will. You may PM me if you want.

I understand that. But I am enjoying the discussion and your approach.

I haven't had such a discussion for a while. I am trying to be as clear as possible

 

[Sabour]

Your words are a ping pong ball in motion.

From a person who very much like ping pong I didn't understand what do you mean.

Was that a good thing or not ?