Ayran is synonymous with Sanskrit, and what all happened to the people who speak the Tamil language

[River Sea]

@GoodAttention
Ayran is synonymous with Sanskrit, and what all happened to the people who speak the Tamil language

@GoodAttention
what is this about Ayran is synonymous with Sanskrit and you claim nonsense, please explain this nonsense more in detail because what is nonsense, but a dismissive word that allows then the Sanskrit that branched eastward from India more say, as they will grab all the details that is dismissed.

It would be better to start a new thread than to post here, so that it can be discussed properly.

I began a new thread as you @GoodAttention asked. I'm not sure if I title the thread so this can be discussed properly. I think I can edit the title if you think the title should be written differently.

This is in reference to @River Sea @GoodAttention conversation below.

@GoodAttention
what is this about Ayran is synonymous with Sanskrit and you claim nonsense, please explain this nonsense more in detail because what is nonsense, but a dismissive word that allows then the Sanskrit that branched eastward from India more say, as they will grab all the details that is dismissed. Because they had and how? What all happened to the people who speaks the Tamil language do the Meema community speak the Tamil language still? How come you favor Hebrew word circle for, what is the Tamil word for circle?

@River Sea post above is a response to @GoodAttention post below

Aryan is synonymous with Sanskrit, so they are looking to impose where-ever they can their "all roads lead to Sanskrit/Aryan origin" nonsense. It is unfounded, and all archaeological evidence points to the opposite. They fear the Indus Valley Civilization spoke a proto-Dravidian language, and so they look to manipulate history and religion where they can.

Do not be fooled, in any other context, these people are modern day Nazis posing as "scholars".

To show the word circle was the word Havilah, that's Hebrew. I was wondering about the word circle in the Tamil language.

Later you can see me @River Sea asking this

Who are the Aryans and how much has this taken away from the southern India from their language the Tamil language., yet you @GoodAttention used a circle word for scriptures, you favored the word 'Havilah' and that's Hebrew, what would this be in the Tamil language meaning circle?

@GoodAttention I hope I organized this post well enough so it can be discussed properly.

 

[River Sea]

I began a new thread as you @GoodAttention asked. I'm not sure if I title the thread so this can be discussed properly. I think I can edit the title if you think the title should be written differently.

@GoodAttention how come you asked me to start a new thread for?

 

[Soandso]

I've never heard of "Ayran" or "Aryan" as a language group. Are you referring to Old Avestan?

As far as I'm aware, both Old Avestan and Sanskrit ultimately branch from the proto-indo-european language tree. What does the Tamil language have to do with that?

 

[River Sea]

I've never heard of "Ayran" or "Aryan" as a language group. Are you referring to Old Avestan?

As far as I'm aware, both Old Avestan and Sanskrit ultimately branch from the proto-indo-european language tree. What does the Tamil language have to do with that?

@Soandso I never heard of Old Avestan, who are the Old Avestans?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala have you ever heard of Old Avestan?

@GoodAttention Can you help with what Tamil language has to do with this?

1500 BCE of my understanding, there were no Aryans in India. I understand I'm using the modern name India.

There's tribes that left India. The tribe I'm more familiar with is the Yadavas.
@Soandso have you ever heard of the Yadavas? The Yadavas left Indus Valley, India, in 1446 BC and traveled to Israel. I understand I'm using the modern name Israel.

I'm understanding OIT, I think there were no Aryans in India during 1500 BCE.
I'm lost as to people understanding AIT when they think when the Aryans came into India. I'm not sure what date they're referring to.

 

[Soandso]

@Soandso I never heard of Old Avestan, who are the Old Avestans?

"Avestan" refers to the written language used in the Zend Avesta (which contains different forms of Avestan with Old Avestan being the most ancient). For the longest time no one knew what was written in it as the language had long since died. Because the surviving Zoroastrians (Persians) had kept the prayers alive and had perfected the grammatical recitation of those prayers, they were able to translate and reconstruct the language based on it's similarity to Sanskrit

 

[River Sea]

First, I think it important you read about the context Havilah is first mentioned in Genesis, which is referring to the Wadi Hammamat in Egypt.

Wadi Hammamat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@GoodAttention
Wadi Hammamat
I read it, and I don't understand why in Egypt for. Please explain. Also Egypt is KMT.
At first I learned that Havilah means circle. Now I learned Havilah means Garden of Eden.
In Genesis 2:10–11, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala I looked in your book Common Prophets and saw Havilah in your book.

In Genesis 2:10–11, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden.
So Havilah is garden of Eden.

From book Common Prophets shows where.

Place: Pushkar, South of
Semitic Name: Bakkata, Havilah
Hindu Name: Land of Bharata

Garden of Eden:
Place: Pushkar
Semitic Name: Bibakkata, Garden of Eden, Moriah, Paradise
Hindu name: Meru

Bharat was name of the area south of Pushkar and that map is sufficient

India and jambu island : Das, Amarnath : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Central Secretariat Library, Government of IndiaSource URL: http://cslrepository.nvli.in//handle/123456789/8298

archive.org

India and jambu island
by Das, Amarnath

Yes, the Yadavas left India at 1446 BCE as per Bible and there is no evidence of the Aryans coming to India. What we have is the evidence of the Proto-Indo-European language coming to India that could have been brought by travelers, merchants, or some other method. There is no indication of any largescale migration of people into India.

Tamil is spoken by tens of millions of people, however it has been Sankritized and includes 4 additional letters and numerous words it the vocabulary now.

Although difficult, it is not impossible to remove all Sanskrit influence from the language to see what a proto-Dravidian language would have been.

 

[River Sea]

"Avestan" refers to the written language used in the Zend Avesta (which contains different forms of Avestan with Old Avestan being the most ancient). For the longest time no one knew what was written in it as the language had long since died. Because the surviving Zoroastrians (Persians) had kept the prayers alive and had perfected the grammatical recitation of those prayers, they were able to translate and reconstruct the language based on it's similarity to Sanskrit

@Soandso
I looked up Avestan on YouTube, and somehow I found this video, but I'm not sure if this would be about Avestan. How far off am I or am I still within the name of Avestan?

Iran's Ancient Kings Had Sanskrit Names

I said the Hebrews consider Havilah to be a reference to India, but the word/name also has many meanings. It would be best for an expert in Hebrew to give a comment on this.

So the Hebrews do consider Havilah in India; that's amazing because I saw Havilah as the Garden of Eden.

Yes, the Yadavas left India at 1446 BCE as per Bible and there is no evidence of the Aryans coming to India. What we have is the evidence of the Proto-Indo-European language coming to India that could have been brought by travelers, merchants, or some other method. There is no indication of any largescale migration of people into India.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
your video showing circle. Leaving India for Israel, then later some return to India

Description of Video
This research explores the intriguing possibility of a genetic connection between Indian populations and Ashkenazi Jews, suggesting that a significant migration from India to Israel occurred around 1400 BC, led by Moses. The study examines genetic markers, particularly the R2 gene, found in both Indian and Jewish populations, providing evidence of historical migrations and shared ancestry. Through the analysis of ancient graves, genetic studies, and historical migrations, this research presents a compelling argument for a deep-rooted connection between the two groups, reshaping our understanding of Jewish origins.

Genetic Connection of Jews with India | Genetic Links Between Indian Populations and Ashkenazi Jews

 

[GoodAttention]

@GoodAttention
Wadi Hammamat
I read it, and I don't understand why in Egypt for. Please explain.

Wadi Hammamat is "The Land of Havilah" that is described in Genesis 2. The river that "encircles" or borders this "Land of Havilah" is the Nile.

Why in Egypt? There is an understanding that Egypt traded with India 5-6 thousand years ago.

Who in India? We do not know for certain, only that trade did occur between the two groups.

How did they trade? Indians built ships, and I believe they would follow the coast of the Arabian Gulf, travel up the Red Sea and visit the port on one side of the Wadi Hammamat. Once they unload their goods on the Rea Sea port, the ships travel back to India.

Also Egypt is KMT.

What is the meaning of KMT?

At first I learned that Havilah means circle. Now I learned Havilah means Garden of Eden.
In Genesis 2:10–11, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden.

What is your source Havilah means circle? What is your source Havilah means Garden of Eden?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Soandso I never heard of Old Avestan, who are the Old Avestans?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala have you ever heard of Old Avestan?

@GoodAttention Can you help with what Tamil language has to do with this?

1500 BCE of my understanding, there were no Aryans in India. I understand I'm using the modern name India.

There's tribes that left India. The tribe I'm more familiar with is the Yadavas.
@Soandso have you ever heard of the Yadavas? The Yadavas left Indus Valley, India, in 1446 BC and traveled to Israel. I understand I'm using the modern name Israel.

I'm understanding OIT, I think there were no Aryans in India during 1500 BCE.
I'm lost as to people understanding AIT when they think when the Aryans came into India. I'm not sure what date they're referring to.

• As far as I understand, the correct position is that the Yadavas left the Indus Valley at 1446 BCE, and they became the Hebrews. They carried with them the Rig Vedic culture and they spent 40 years in Bactria, and it is here that some stayed back, and they became the Zoroastrians, and that Rig Vedic language evolved into Avestan. It may have borrowed from Proto-Indo-European to create the script, but the content of the Avestan Gathas is almost identical to the Gita of Krishna.
• The Aryan invasion theory is totally rejected, but we accept that there was some connection with Proto-Indo-European and Avestan. It may be like the merchants kept bringing the Proto Indo-European language to Bactria or Indus Valley, and evolving into the Avestan and Prakrit and other languages.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@GoodAttention
Wadi Hammamat
I read it, and I don't understand why in Egypt for. Please explain. Also Egypt is KMT.
At first I learned that Havilah means circle. Now I learned Havilah means Garden of Eden.
In Genesis 2:10–11, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala I looked in your book Common Prophets and saw Havilah in your book.

In Genesis 2:10–11, Havilah is associated with the Garden of Eden.
So Havilah is garden of Eden.

From book Common Prophets shows where.

Place: Pushkar, South of
Semitic Name: Bakkata, Havilah
Hindu Name: Land of Bharata

Garden of Eden:
Place: Pushkar
Semitic Name: Bibakkata, Garden of Eden, Moriah, Paradise
Hindu name: Meru

India and jambu island : Das, Amarnath : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Central Secretariat Library, Government of IndiaSource URL: http://cslrepository.nvli.in//handle/123456789/8298

archive.org

India and jambu island
by Das, Amarnath
View attachment 96419

My understanding is that some people from the Indus Valley migrated southward to the Indian Peninsula at 1500 BCE. Some of these became the Tamils. They may have indeed maintained the original language of the Indus Valley, but Tamil has not helped decipher the Indus Valley script, so it is not clear what is the relationship between Tamil and Indus Valley language, but association cannot be ruled out.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Soandso
I looked up Avestan on YouTube, and somehow I found this video, but I'm not sure if this would be about Avestan. How far off am I or am I still within the name of Avestan?

Iran's Ancient Kings Had Sanskrit Names

So the Hebrews do consider Havilah in India; that's amazing because I saw Havilah as the Garden of Eden.



@Bharat Jhunjhunwala
your video showing circle. Leaving India for Israel, then later some return to India

Description of Video
This research explores the intriguing possibility of a genetic connection between Indian populations and Ashkenazi Jews, suggesting that a significant migration from India to Israel occurred around 1400 BC, led by Moses. The study examines genetic markers, particularly the R2 gene, found in both Indian and Jewish populations, providing evidence of historical migrations and shared ancestry. Through the analysis of ancient graves, genetic studies, and historical migrations, this research presents a compelling argument for a deep-rooted connection between the two groups, reshaping our understanding of Jewish origins.

Genetic Connection of Jews with India | Genetic Links Between Indian Populations and Ashkenazi Jews

The Havilah has to be located in the context of the genesis. If we say that Havilah was in Egypt, then we have to locate the four rivers of Eden in Egypt and I have not seen any such suggestion. So, we must accept that Havilah was not in Egypt.

 

[River Sea]

2012 The Origin of Kurds AA20120200003 79323951

2012 The Origin of Kurds AA20120200003 79323951

www.academia.edu

Ferdinand Hennerbichler

 

[River Sea]

Ancient Egypt

What is the meaning of KMT?

@GoodAttention
Ancient Egypt KMT was to explain the location of black soil.

Ancient Egypt KMT
I wonder if, back then, it was more about soil and naming, and people would know where. Meaning were names also a map to help people know where? I wonder this. KMT was to explain the location of black soil.

I did learn from @Tamino that they did speak vowels; however, when writing, they only wrote with consonants. @Tamino can you correct me if I had misunderstood.

KMT doesn't show the navigation of all of ancient Egypt. Red desert soil has a different name that's also of ancient Egypt too.

For me to practice vocabulary word prefect. Which means to be born in a political area such as being a ruler, king, or pharaoh.

Who was prefect to name Black Soil KMT?

What was this about? T is feminine in the name KM.T.

Page 4: The Meaning of KM.T. by Asar Imhotep
Title: A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives
The Case of KMT

Page 4
The word km.t is one of the many names used to represent the state of ancient Egypt. The name consists of a root k-m, with a terminal suffix that many believe is a feminine -t.

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

www.academia.edu

 

[River Sea]

The Aryan invasion theory is totally rejected, but we accept that there was some connection with Proto-Indo-European and Avestan. It may be like the merchants kept bringing the Proto Indo-European language to Bactria or Indus Valley, and evolving into the Avestan and Prakrit and other languages.

@paarsurrey @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @GoodAttention @Soandso

Using modern words. I understand these modern words weren't used during 1500 BCE.

1500 BCE

Some people think that Aryans merged with others in India. These people would also think no Aryan invasion.

What are your thoughts about Aryans merged with tribes in India? Or would you claim no merging? What was Proto-Indo-European compared to the word Aryan?

 

[GoodAttention]

Ancient Egypt



@GoodAttention
Ancient Egypt KMT was to explain the location of black soil.

Ancient Egypt KMT
I wonder if, back then, it was more about soil and naming, and people would know where. Meaning were names also a map to help people know where? I wonder this. KMT was to explain the location of black soil.

I did learn from @Tamino that they did speak vowels; however, when writing, they only wrote with consonants. @Tamino can you correct me if I had misunderstood.

KMT doesn't show the navigation of all of ancient Egypt. Red desert soil has a different name that's also of ancient Egypt too.

For me to practice vocabulary word prefect. Which means to be born in a political area such as being a ruler, king, or pharaoh.

Who was prefect to name Black Soil KMT?

What was this about? T is feminine in the name KM.T.

Page 4: The Meaning of KM.T. by Asar Imhotep
Title: A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives
The Case of KMT

Page 4
The word km.t is one of the many names used to represent the state of ancient Egypt. The name consists of a root k-m, with a terminal suffix that many believe is a feminine -t.

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

www.academia.edu

Wadi Hammamat = Gateway to India = Land of Havilah ?

You mentioned soil @River Sea


Havi or Kaavi (H sound can be K sound in Tamil.

காவி​

kāvi s. red ochre, காவிமண்; 2. reddish colour in garments worn by religious mendicants etc., 3. blue lily, கருங் குவளை; 4. indigo cake, அவுரி யுருண்டை; 5. toddy; 6. (Port.) topsail, கப்பலின் தலைப்பாய்.

Vali

வழி​

vaḻi n. [K. baḷi, M. vaḻi.] 1. Way,road, path; மார்க்கம். வாழ்நாள் வழியடைக்குங் கல்

So if we are considering Tamil, Havilah could be Haavi Vali meaning “Red ochre Way”.

If we are to say “to go” on Haavi Vali it would sound out as Haavi Valiah

Why is this significant? Wadi is a dried up river bed, the ground would be different to the surround desert sand, dark brown or red in colour? Potentially.

 

[GoodAttention]

Ancient Egypt



@GoodAttention
Ancient Egypt KMT was to explain the location of black soil.

Ancient Egypt KMT
I wonder if, back then, it was more about soil and naming, and people would know where. Meaning were names also a map to help people know where? I wonder this. KMT was to explain the location of black soil.

I did learn from @Tamino that they did speak vowels; however, when writing, they only wrote with consonants. @Tamino can you correct me if I had misunderstood.

KMT doesn't show the navigation of all of ancient Egypt. Red desert soil has a different name that's also of ancient Egypt too.

For me to practice vocabulary word prefect. Which means to be born in a political area such as being a ruler, king, or pharaoh.

Who was prefect to name Black Soil KMT?

What was this about? T is feminine in the name KM.T.

Page 4: The Meaning of KM.T. by Asar Imhotep
Title: A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives
The Case of KMT

Page 4
The word km.t is one of the many names used to represent the state of ancient Egypt. The name consists of a root k-m, with a terminal suffix that many believe is a feminine -t.

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

www.academia.edu

You mentioned “circle” before, which could be describing “circuit”.

What is circuit? - Trade goes back and forth, or in another way around and around. This is the description of trade, ships leaving India, unloading goods at the Red Sea port, perhaps loading Egyptian goods and taking back to India or perhaps Sumer?

The Pharoah could have “leased” the Wadi Hammamat to the Indian traders, securing it also. The “Land of Havilah” is therefore a description of this.

The scriptures talk about an area of land “from Havilah to Shur, as though goes to Assyria”. What is the meaning of this?

Consider not a land route, but a shipping route. Havilah to Assyria by boat would follow the Arabian coastline, so Shur could be Sur, in modern day Oman.

What is special about Sur? It is the eastern most point of the peninsula, where boats would then stop travelling east and instead move northwards to trade Egyptian goods in Mesopotamia.

சேறு​

cēṟu s. mud, mire, அளறு; 2. a liquid of thick consistency

Note it is a s sound like sir not c like cake.

Any relevance of mud to Sur in Oman? Further research required

 

[GoodAttention]

Who was prefect to name Black Soil KMT?

What was this about? T is feminine in the name KM.T.

Page 4: The Meaning of KM.T. by Asar Imhotep
Title: A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives
The Case of KMT

Page 4
The word km.t is one of the many names used to represent the state of ancient Egypt. The name consists of a root k-m, with a terminal suffix that many believe is a feminine -t.

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

A Lesson in Egyptian Determinatives: The Case of KMT

www.academia.edu

Tamil opinion for consideration.

கருமை​

karumai n. [K. kari, M. karuma.]1. Blackness, dark colour; கறுப்பு கருமை


What is the meaning of T?

தரை​

tarai n. dharā. 1. The earth;பூமி. தரையொடு திரிதல நலிதரு . . . சலதரன்(தேவா. 568, 2). 2. Soil, land, ground; நிலம் தரையில் விழுந்து பணிந்தனர் (கோயிற்பு. பதஞ்ச.43).

So is km.t = Kemet? = karumai tarai?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@paarsurrey @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @GoodAttention @Soandso

Using modern words. I understand these modern words weren't used during 1500 BCE.

1500 BCE

Some people think that Aryans merged with others in India. These people would also think no Aryan invasion.

What are your thoughts about Aryans merged with tribes in India? Or would you claim no merging? What was Proto-Indo-European compared to the word Aryan?

My understanding is that there was no movement of Aryan people. The Proto-Indo-European language may have traveled with merchants or otherwise to Indus Valley, and here it was adopted and used to modify the Indus language into Brahmi and other languages of India. So, the whole idea of Aryans merging with tribes in India is misplaced, according to me.

 

[GoodAttention]

My understanding is that there was no movement of Aryan people. The Proto-Indo-European language may have traveled with merchants or otherwise to Indus Valley, and here it was adopted and used to modify the Indus language into Brahmi and other languages of India. So, the whole idea of Aryans merging with tribes in India is misplaced, according to me.

Why are you confusing language and script?

The Indus Valley Civilisation cuneiform script existed before 2000BC, but we are yet to decipher the language, although most evidence is supportive of proto-Dravidian.

What is the earliest evidence for the Brahmi script?

 

[River Sea]

Please tell me more about Devarim?

தேவாரம்​

tēvāram n. cf. dēvārha. 1.[M. tēvāra.] Worship; பூசனை உயர்தவ மூவாயிரவர்க டாவாமறையொடு தேவாரக் கைப்பற்றியபணிமுற்ற (கோயிற்பு. திருவிழா 27). 2. Deityworshipped privately in a house; கிருகாராதனக்கடவுள். உம்முடைய தேவாரமோ (ஈடு, 6, 8, 10).

தேவாரம்​

tēvāram n. prob. தே³ + வாரம் A collection of devotional songs in honour of Šiva, composed by Appar, Campantar and Cuntarar, otherwise known as Tamiḻ-vētam;

Re-thinking the video I shared. Maybe this is a movie. Also I don't know the date that they're referring to. Is it AD or BC? Later I learn the video is Ennappan Allava1. So I'm researching what this is? Found the translation of song, I show this below video and says you are the father, so not sure why the confusion of title of video "not your father"

@paarsurrey I'm bringing over the Aryan Sanskrit Tamil conversation here, creating its own thread. Feel free to ask all your questions. Keep in mind there's areas I don't know.

Tamil Dictionary

Tamil Dictionary

Agarathi is a Tamil dictionary with over 100,000+ words and multiple dictionary sources are available for search. Search by English and Tamil is available for all words. Phonetic search is also available for many popular words.

agarathi.com

@paarsurrey @Bharat Jhunjhunwala @GoodAttention

Found farming because it shows in video. Your thoughts about farming in this area, and did they burn bake bricks needing 50% straw in this area too? This video is: Ennappan Allava1.

This video I found (when looking for song Šiva, composed by Appar). However, where am I? Can you help me explain what they're saying in this video and what this is about?

Translate it, and it says "not my father." However the translation of song claims you are my father. I show it below video

என் அப்பனல்லவா | En Appanallavaa | M M Dandapani Desikar
Translate: Not my father En Appanallavaa | M M Dandapani Desikar

Not my father, what does that mean in reference to this video? However learn that song says you're my father. I shown translation below video and says you're my father.

என் அப்பனல்லவா | En Appanallavaa | M M Dandapani Desikar
Translate: Not my father En Appanallavaa | M M Dandapani Desikar

Translation of song

En Appan Allava, En Thayum Allava, Your are my father. You are my mother as well. En Appan Allava, En Thayum Allava, Your are my father. You are my mother as well. Kannara Mudha Kadale Potri, Glory to the lord, the elixir of ocean Seerar Perunthurai Nam Thevanadi Potri, Glory to the Lord; praise his feet Aaradha Inbam Arulum Malai Potri, Glory to the lord, giving the pleasure of divinity Kayilai Malaiyane Potri Potri Potri, Glory to the lord of Kailai hills Siva Sivayam, Siva Sivayam, Siva Sivay... - Full article: Siva Sivayam Lyrics English Translation | En Appan Allava - Siva Sivayam Lyrics English Translation — Bakasuran | En Appan Allava En Thaayum — Tamil to English