Babyhood to adulthood

[LuisDantas]

I don't really see how religion can fail to have political consequences. Once you decide to adhere to a doctrine, it must have some effect on your goals and values.

 

[FearGod]

Humbug. All those groups claim to be acting for religion.

If i commit adultery every day while claiming that i am a muslim, then should you understand by this that Islam permits adultery and raping.

 

[FearGod]

I don't really see how religion can fail to have political consequences. Once you decide to adhere to a doctrine, it must have some effect on your goals and values.

Do you mean that raping and adultery is one of the goals and values of Islam ?

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you mean that raping and adultery is one of the goals and values of Islam ?

Thanks for asking.

Of course not. Quite on the contrary actually. Islam is very idealistic indeed, and it values respect for others and personal space quite a lot.

However, Islam is most definitely not immune to being misunderstood and misrepresented. Whatever other qualities natural or supernatural the Quran may have, it is not above misuse, for the no doubt enormous frutration of Muslims everywhere.

And as it clearly turns out, neither an interest in being politically active nor a desire to show reverence for Islam and the Quran is quite enough to ensure that people are minimally wise and virtuous. That probably should not happen, but it clearly does, and it is terrible for the huge multitudes of well-meaning Muslims everywhere.

Ultimately, people are people, and it is simply all too tempting for people to justify themselves by developing a certainty that they are more worthy than others. We all too easily believe that we deserve things that others will deny us out of malice or lack of wisdom. We all too easily give in to anger or despair and end up committing terrible, unwise actions that would shock us if we were not taken by such violent emotion.

So what I am saying is certainly not that rape and adultery are Muslim values, but rather that Islamic practice as it is currently understood is not completely succesfull in avoiding the perception of how foul those grave mistakes are, and that nonetheless it is Islam's responsibility to do its best to try to clarify and enlighten its adherents on those important matters.

In post #321, however, what I said was that religion and politcs can and must connect.

In fact, not just Islam, but anything that I would call a religion at all must by necessity deal with matters with practical meaning and practical application. Religion is supposet to matter, after all.

There are dangers in mixing religion with politics, certainly. But in truth it is not realistically possible to fully separate the two of them, except perhaps by being very superficial indeed with that least one of the two - which is probably not a good idea and certainly not something I support.

Both areas are normal and necessary parts of action in anyone's life, and both deal with establishing what our individual and collective goals should be; they will and they must connect - and that is really quite all right. While I support and value laicism and secularism, I acknowledge that religion will and must have political effects, for everyone really.

What I will not say is that either area is safe.

 

[Looncall]

If i commit adultery every day while claiming that i am a muslim, then should you understand by this that Islam permits adultery and raping.

Those follow naturally from the muslim view of women as livestock.

 

[FearGod]

Those follow naturally from the muslim view of women as livestock.

It is easier then to permit prostitution and then women can be very cheap and hire as a merchandize.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is easier then to permit prostitution and then women can be very cheap and hire as a merchandize.

If that's what she chooses to do, what's the problem?

 

[FearGod]

If that's what she chooses to do, what's the problem?

Did i say there is a problem for permitting women to sell their bodies as for men to enjoy sex.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It is easier then to permit prostitution and then women can be very cheap and hire as a merchandize.

Would it not be better to let women be free to make their own decisions? Let them be educated and equal to men? Not all women would simply sell their bodies for sex. I don't think there is anyone who WANTS that. But that isn't an argument against feminism. What is stopping men from becoming whores and selling their bodies for sex? Nothing. And women should be the same but with the same rights and opportunities as men.

Which rounds back to my original objection to the Islamic view of women. It is not a "Islam views them as precious and western world views them as cheap" argument. The western world (not all of it of course but the general secular view) is that women are PEOPLE. They aren't cheap or expensive. They are people. Just like men. They don't need to be kept in any sense of the word.

 

[FearGod]

Would it not be better to let women be free to make their own decisions? Let them be educated and equal to men? Not all women would simply sell their bodies for sex. I don't think there is anyone who WANTS that. But that isn't an argument against feminism. What is stopping men from becoming whores and selling their bodies for sex? Nothing. And women should be the same but with the same rights and opportunities as men.

Which rounds back to my original objection to the Islamic view of women. It is not a "Islam views them as precious and western world views them as cheap" argument. The western world (not all of it of course but the general secular view) is that women are PEOPLE. They aren't cheap or expensive. They are people. Just like men. They don't need to be kept in any sense of the word.

And who said to you that muslim women are prevented from education.

They can work all kinds of jobs except the ones that makes them as an sex object, similarly men aren't allowed to work in porn business, so both are equal regarding such awful jobs.

I know that most part of the west permit women to work as prostitutes

 

[Monk Of Reason]

And who said to you that muslim women are prevented from education.

They can work all kinds of jobs except the ones that makes them as an sex object, similarly men aren't allowed to work in porn business, so both are equal regarding such awful jobs.

I know that most part of the west permit women to work as prostitutes

In many places in the Islamic world Muslim women are not educated and where they are educated it is common for them to be under-educated. I think that the under-education of women has much to do with the Islamic view of women.

And what is this "most part" that you speak of? All of the USA it is illegal except for Nevada and even there it is highly restricted. All of the western European countries it is illegal. In most of the rest of European countries the specific act of prostitution isn't illegal but other surrounding factors do make it illegal. For example you can't have brothels where you put women in "Shops" to buy. No where in the west is that legal that I am aware of. Greece maybe.

But wanna know a country where its perfectly legal and treated as a business? Turkey.

What country are you from by the way? You seem to have a highly skewed view of what actually goes on in the west.

 

[FearGod]

In many places in the Islamic world Muslim women are not educated and where they are educated it is common for them to be under-educated. I think that the under-education of women has much to do with the Islamic view of women.

Not true

And what is this "most part" that you speak of? All of the USA it is illegal except for Nevada and even there it is highly restricted. All of the western European countries it is illegal. In most of the rest of European countries the specific act of prostitution isn't illegal but other surrounding factors do make it illegal. For example you can't have brothels where you put women in "Shops" to buy. No where in the west is that legal that I am aware of. Greece maybe.

I thought that the west gave the freedom for women to work any job she wishes including prostitution.

But wanna know a country where its perfectly legal and treated as a business? Turkey.

Turkey is a secular state, so it isn't surprising that women can work as prostitutes.

What country are you from by the way? You seem to have a highly skewed view of what actually goes on in the west.

Yes i thought it is easy in the west to have a sexual relationship with a girl without marriage.

In Jordan where i live women can work in any decent job,minister,deputy,actress,singer ...etc, but not allowed in prostitution or any sexual activity out of marriage, same measures for men.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Not true

I thought as much.

I thought that the west gave the freedom for women to work any job she wishes including prostitution.

We need to remove the "woman" from this argument. It doesn't matter if its a woman or man. The fact that we are stuck on this "woman" situation proves my point.

Prostitution in general is illegal in many areas. The majority in America. Other places where it is not "illegal" it is illegal in most practical ways. For example we couldn't stop someone from paying money for sex but we could stop pimping, brothels or any other organized attempt to do so. In a few areas it is legal and regulated but it isn't a distinctly western trait. And it is the same for both men and women. What you are talking about right now has only to do with prostitution but not freedom for women.

What does this have to do with feminism and gender equality?

Turkey is a secular state, so it isn't surprising that women can work as prostitutes.

Its a borderline theocracy currently. And are you back tracking to only mean states that are controlled by Islamic theocracies?

Yes i thought it is easy in the west to have a sexual relationship with a girl without marriage.

Typically yes. Most people have sex outside of marriage prior to marriage. But there are laws (they differ from state to state and I'm not sure about Europe's laws) that regulate sexual conduct once you are married. Adultery is currently illegal in the USA. I had sex with my wife before we were married and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

In Jordan where i live women can work in any decent job,minister,deputy,actress,singer ...etc, but not allowed in prostitution or any sexual activity out of marriage, same measures for men.

What do you think of the Jordan rape marriage law? Where a man can be pardoned of all rape charges if he agrees to marry the woman? Sexist or not?

 

[FearGod]

I thought as much.

We need to remove the "woman" from this argument. It doesn't matter if its a woman or man. The fact that we are stuck on this "woman" situation proves my point.

Because it is woman who is paid and it is woman who is working as a prostitute,

Prostitution in general is illegal in many areas. The majority in America. Other places where it is not "illegal" it is illegal in most practical ways. For example we couldn't stop someone from paying money for sex but we could stop pimping, brothels or any other organized attempt to do so. In a few areas it is legal and regulated but it isn't a distinctly western trait. And it is the same for both men and women. What you are talking about right now has only to do with prostitution but not freedom for women.

What does this have to do with feminism and gender equality?

It is your words that woman should be free if she wants to work as a whore similar to men.

Would it not be better to let women be free to make their own decisions? Let them be educated and equal to men? Not all women would simply sell their bodies for sex. I don't think there is anyone who WANTS that. But that isn't an argument against feminism. What is stopping men from becoming whores and selling their bodies for sex? Nothing. And women should be the same but with the same rights and opportunities as men.

Its a borderline theocracy currently. And are you back tracking to only mean states that are controlled by Islamic theocracies?

Turkey doesn't rule by Islamic law, compare Turkey to Saudi Arabia regarding porn industry.

Typically yes. Most people have sex outside of marriage prior to marriage. But there are laws (they differ from state to state and I'm not sure about Europe's laws) that regulate sexual conduct once you are married. Adultery is currently illegal in the USA. I had sex with my wife before we were married and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

In my state doing sex out of marriage is regarded as a rape.

What do you think of the Jordan rape marriage law? Where a man can be pardoned of all rape charges if he agrees to marry the woman? Sexist or not?

Because sexual relationship with women out of marriage is regarded as rape and men will be responsible for losing the virginity of the victim even though she agreed but the judge won't take by it as the man will be always the responsible, but rapes with extreme force is regarded as a crime.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

We need to remove the "woman" from this argument. It doesn't matter if its a woman or man. The fact that we are stuck on this "woman" situation proves my point.

Because it is woman who is paid and it is woman who is working as a prostitute,

There are male prostitutes as well. It is not that we need to stop "women" from being prostitutes but rather prostitution itself is a problem. It is not only women who become prostitues.

It is your words that woman should be free if she wants to work as a whore similar to men.

No. You misunderstand. I was equating what stops men from being prostitutes? What keeps the men from selling their bodies for money? Nothing. There isn't a huge movement to stop that. Partially because there isn't a huge problem for it in many areas (though there is a problem for it in others) because they have the financial opprotinutes to support themselves without it.

So a woman can be a stripper if she wants. She can have sex with whoever she wants but I am against prostitution because of what it entails. The majority of prostitutes did not choose to become prostitutes.

Turkey doesn't rule by Islamic law, compare Turkey to Saudi Arabia regarding porn industry.

Backtracking it is then.

In my state doing sex out of marriage is regarded is a rape.
Because sexual relationship with women out of marriage is regarded as rape and men will be responsible for losing the virginity of the victim even though she agreed but the judge won't take by it as the man will be always the responsible, but rapes with extreme force is regarded as a crime.

What if the woman does not want to marry him? And how do they go about defining it as "rape" vs "violent rape"?

 

[FearGod]

There are male prostitutes as well. It is not that we need to stop "women" from being prostitutes but rather prostitution itself is a problem. It is not only women who become prostitues.

First time to hear that women pay for men to have sex, naturally men are the ones to pay for women.

No. You misunderstand. I was equating what stops men from being prostitutes? What keeps the men from selling their bodies for money? Nothing. There isn't a huge movement to stop that. Partially because there isn't a huge problem for it in many areas (though there is a problem for it in others) because they have the financial opprotinutes to support themselves without it.

I ain't aware that there are some men working as prostitutes and is it illegal or legal in US for this kind of job for men,

So a woman can be a stripper if she wants. She can have sex with whoever she wants but I am against prostitution because of what it entails. The majority of prostitutes did not choose to become prostitutes.

Many atheists support prostitution and regard it as women's freedom to gain money by selling her own body

What if the woman does not want to marry him? And how do they go about defining it as "rape" vs "violent rape"?

By investigation they can know if it was criminal or by agreement, if by agreement then the man should marry her officially otherwise will be treated as rapist, the girl have to be responsible for letting him having sex with her, they can divorce after marriage but the woman have to get her rights, it isn't that easy in the way you think of it.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

First time to hear that women pay for men to have sex, naturally men are the ones to pay for women.

You've never heard of a gigolo?

I ain't aware that there are some men working as prostitutes and is it illegal or legal in US for this kind of job for men,

My point being that prostitution (as both take part) is not an innate feminine quality and nor is it an eventuality if they have freedom.

Many atheists support prostitution and regard it as women's freedom to gain money by selling her own body

I don't doubt there are Atheists who think that way. I don't doubt that there are theists that way. But its not a tenant of atheism and it doesn't describe an atheist viewpoint. What does the opinion of a few (because it is not a popular opinion) have to do with the argument?
Where does it tie in to support your point or somehow usurp mine?

By investigation they can know if it was criminal or by agreement, if by agreement then the man should marry her officially otherwise will be treated as rapist, the girl have to be responsible for letting him having sex with her, they can divorce after marriage but the woman have to get her rights, it isn't that easy in the way you think of it.

When we convolute the meaning of rape and regulate what "consent" means within a society that happens.

 

[fantome profane]

It is easier then to permit prostitution and then women can be very cheap and hire as a merchandize.

Has anyone ever done a study of the religious affiliations or beliefs of prostitutes? I am not aware of any. But I see no reason to assume that the majority of prostitutes are atheists, in fact I tend to doubt that.

I think it is interesting and perhaps symptomatic that no one has thought to even ask what the prostitutes themselves believe.

 

[Etritonakin]

Every human have to pass the stage of babyhood before reaching the stage of adulthood, so rationally speaking an adult human or an adult animal have first to grow as a baby, and the baby needs someone to feed him in order to grow to the stage of childhood and then to adulthood.

For me it seems impossible that an adult can be the product of evolution.

Whats your view ? how can it be explained other than the need for a ready pre- existence of adult male and female.

I disagree that such cannot be the product of "evolution" in its broadest sense -as the term can apply to design. Evolutionists don't -or should not -deny that life has design or is designed (form follows function, etc.), they just credit that design to "evolution" itself. As we, ourselves are intelligent designers, they essentially credit the emergence of intelligent designers to "evolution". "Evolution", then, is supposedly an extremely capable designer which didn't try to be and isn't aware that it is.



I think what you pointed out suggests more that life itself had a caring parent.



(Adults of any species are the product of all factors which led to their existence.

They are the evolution of a design -regardless of what is credited with that design -whether or not they were an intended result.

"Evolution", as it is now generally accepted, does not consider the possibility of a creator/designer, because one is not obviously present.

However, some of the assertions of some "evolutionists" assume, without proof, that there was no creator or designer.

"Science" -by its own rules -cannot simply assume that there was no creator or designer -or even that there was -except to give a value to an unknown in order to continue.

Part of the reason for continuing is -or at least should be -to eventually give that unknown a known value.

To science... whether or not there was a designer is an unknown. However, some scientists see no reason to assign that unknown the value of "yes, there was" -and to continue.

Because science has continued overall, we have much more evidence. Some scientists do see that evidence as reason to consider the possibility.

Evolution cannot be denied.

Intelligent design cannot be denied.

It's just a matter of when which actually applies to what.)

 

[viole]

First time to hear that women pay for men to have sex, naturally men are the ones to pay for women.

What? Lol.

May I ask where you live?

I ain't aware that there are some men working as prostitutes and is it illegal or legal in US for this kind of job for men,

You should visit Europe.

Many atheists support prostitution and regard it as women's freedom to gain money by selling her own body

Man's freedom, too. They sell teir bodies without any problem whatsoever, too.

By investigation they can know if it was criminal or by agreement, if by agreement then the man should marry her officially otherwise will be treated as rapist, the girl have to be responsible for letting him having sex with her, they can divorce after marriage but the woman have to get her rights, it isn't that easy in the way you think of it.

So, either you must marry your one night stand or go to jail.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole