Badmouthing our country

[Debater Slayer]

Dude, seriously?

Of course.

So you're not disagreeing... you're agreeing then?

No, I'm disagreeing. Strongly. I just have other issues with your comparison on top of the disagreement itself. I'd take issue with the minimization of Nazi crimes even if I agreed with you.

It isn't. The core of their opposition is forced vaccination and not given time to make well-informed decisions on their own.

But then Biden's statements that you objected to in the video as well as your comparison referred to mask mandates, not forced vaccination. So which is it?

When people are pushed, coerced, and so forth with propaganda (in the US) if it doesn't draw people in, it repels them. Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't. Propaganda was used in WW1 and 2 get people to fight for the cause. It's used here to get people to support health campaign drives, and so recently found out, its willingfully used in health crisis (as well as others).

While propaganda works for most people especially when its for the health of the nation, it has its drawbacks.

What you call "propaganda" I call what any responsible government should do in line with the recommendations of major medical organizations around the world. The alternative is to take a hands-off approach vis-à-vis vaccination and not support any campaigns to encourage it, which would be unwise at best given that we now have evidence that vaccines significantly reduce the rates of severe illness and death from COVID.

It definitely seems to me that feeling "coerced" by campaigns for vaccination may well be a perception on your own end primarily stemming from your rejection of medical advice rather than what any major medical organization intends to do. Coercion would be forcing people to get vaccinated, which the U.S. hasn't done on a federal level.

Actually, in this specific case, the very fact that there's "propaganda" to encourage vaccination is evidence that you're not being coerced, since there would be no need whatsoever to convince people if the government just upped and decided to force everyone to get vaccinated whether they were convinced or not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, I'm disagreeing. Strongly. I just have other issues with your comparison on top of the disagreement itself. I'd take issue with the minimization of Nazi crimes even if I agreed with you.

I know it was a strong analogy. The point was that vaccine mandates and segregation have long term effects. That and as in NY segregating to where unvaccinated practically have to stay at home for potential spreading the virus (if they catch it) is borderline, how to say...

Regardless the analogy, though, my point has nothing to do with saving people from dying and not using vaccine. It had to do with vaccination mandates....

But then your comparison cited mask mandates, not forced vaccination. So which is it?

Oh. I'm in the middle of two discussions. I'd use stronger analogies for vaccination segregation. But the point is the same with both mask and vaccine mandates. I disagree with it. I'm aligned with Florida governor in the point of letting parents choose for their child rather than the government. But I have no inherent issues with masks just opinions. Vaccinations are different.

What you call "propaganda" I call what any responsible government should do in line with the recommendations of major medical organizations around the world. The alternative is to take a hands-off approach vis-à-vis vaccination and not support any campaigns to encourage it, which would be unwise at best given that we now have evidence that vaccines significantly reduce the rates of severe illness and death from COVID.

It is propaganda.

The government has used propaganda for good things like promoting a cause like wars to crisis like the pandemic.

They thrown everything but the kitchen sank.

Saying its propaganda means the methods and messages media and government use to promote their message and action.

I never said the vaccines didn't work, so that is really not my argument.

It definitely seems to me that feeling "coerced" by campaigns for vaccination may well be a perception on your own end primarily stemming from your rejection of medical advice rather than what any major medical organization intends to do. Coercion would be forcing people to get vaccinated, which the U.S. hasn't done on a federal level.

No. If I rejected medical advice I. would. be. dead.

But no, its propaganda and coercion: used for a good cause.

I've never had that mentality from religion to whatever other situation where the majority rules the mindset of the group and evangelization of those rules.

But you can justify my decision as rejection and denial of science. It doesn't mean its true.

Actually, the very fact that there's "propaganda" to encourage vaccination is evidence that you're not being coerced, since there would be no need whatsoever to convince people if the government just upped and decided to force everyone to get vaccinated whether they were convinced or not.

I'm not being coerced. I never did like that with anything, the pandemic isn't special in those regards.

I'm not convinced by fear, ultimatums, incentives, and advertisements (all in the states).

I don't see the virus disappearing just because the majority vaccinated... and I don't see how such a small percentage of unvaccinated people (exempt And non-exempt) would affect this. Probably most people who are unvaccinated may chose to vaccinate when they have more information and it is in their best interest in regards to their individual situation. No one shoe fits all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Debater Slayer I have no inherent issues with masks. I'm not around people like that for me to think any more of them. Its vaccinations I have issues with not just from opinion but just waiting what they will do next in the state I live in. It's a watch and see. Masks are irrelevant compared.

 

[Friend of Mara]

If you're badmouthing your own country it may turn into a "civil war" and people (at least those who are thinking of the economy as just as important as COVID) would not follow a leader who tries to get people to vaccinate by how he sees his own leaders.

If Ron wasn't representing a country or a leader of some sort you guys can say and hate him however you want to. I don't see how that solves anything but its your right.

But not insofar if you were a leader and saying to citizens and governors if you're not for us you're against us. That's not appropriate for any situation-defending a country through a war, a health crisis, whatever... people (well, I hope) want to follow a leader that thinks the best for his people despite their individual decisions not divide people for their decisions.

This is only true if you think there is some kind of equal parts on each side. Both sides are not equally viable or respectable. If we had flat earther's and NASA scientists in a room we wouldn't give equal credence and respect to the inane opinions of the flat earthers. Similarly the anti-vax movement either in general or the specifically political version with just Covid are not based in facts and evidence. If they were Florida wouldn't be shooting up cases like we were gonna use them to launch the next Space X rocket to carry Jeff Bezos.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I know it was a strong analogy. The point was that vaccine mandates and segregation have long term effects. That and as in NY segregating to where unvaccinated practically have to stay at home for potential spreading the virus (if they catch it) is borderline, how to say...

Regardless the analogy, though, my point has nothing to do with saving people from dying and not using vaccine. It had to do with vaccination mandates....

Oh. I'm in the middle of two discussions. I'd use stronger analogies for vaccination segregation. But the point is the same with both mask and vaccine mandates. I disagree with it. I'm aligned with Florida governor in the point of letting parents choose for their child rather than the government. But I have no inherent issues with masks just opinions. Vaccinations are different.

Separating vaccinated and unvaccinated people in various settings/venues is nothing new; it's what many places had to do before to combat highly infectious diseases. You want to talk about the long-term effects of mandatory vaccines and "segregation"—that is, separation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people? Sure: We can talk about how that has historically helped us control highly contagious diseases like measles, polio, and chickenpox.

I don't even support mandatory vaccination for COVID, but a lot of your arguments in this thread sound rather arbitrary and not based on consideration of how humanity has previously dealt with other contagious diseases.

It is propaganda.

The government has used propaganda for good things like promoting a cause like wars to crisis like the pandemic.

They thrown everything but the kitchen sank.

Saying its propaganda means the methods and messages media and government use to promote their message and action.

I never said the vaccines didn't work, so that is really not my argument.

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here, but it seemed to me your usage of the word "propaganda" carried an inherently negative connotation. I don't think governmental encouragement of vaccine uptake is negative in the slightest, since it's aligned with the advice of relevant expert organizations.

No. If I rejected medical advice I. would. be. dead.

Your rejection of vaccines and your arguments about "potential risk" to justify said rejection both fly in the face of current medical advice:

COVID-19 Vaccination

But no, its propaganda and coercion: used for a good cause.

I've never had that mentality from religion to whatever other situation where the majority rules the mindset of the group and evangelization of those rules.

But you can justify my decision as rejection and denial of science. It doesn't mean its true.

Scientific consensus that is based on peer review is vastly different from majority rule just because they're a majority. When a majority of experts review a given study or arrive at a specific conclusion and verify its soundness via peer review, it means their methods have been reviewed by other experts in the given field to ensure that the conclusion is correct. Scientific organizations don't just get together and decide to roll out advice arbitrarily or without peer review.

I'm not being coerced. I never did like that with anything, the pandemic isn't special in those regards.

I'm not convinced by fear, ultimatums, incentives, and advertisements (all in the states).

There are good reasons to warn people about the potentially significant threats to their health or even their life during a pandemic. Touting one's lack of "fear" only goes so far when a country has to deal with an overwhelmed medical infrastructure. If a government needs to use incentives to avoid such a situation, that's still better than the alternative, which is to look the other way or minimize the scope of the problem.

I don't see the virus disappearing just because the majority vaccinated... and I don't see how such a small percentage of unvaccinated people (exempt And non-exempt) would affect this. Probably most people who are unvaccinated may chose to vaccinate when they have more information and it is in their best interest in regards to their individual situation. No one shoe fits all.

What you see or don't see has no bearing on medical facts, since you're neither an epidemiologist nor a scientist who can arrive at such conclusions based on peer-reviewed findings.

Also, the whole "when they have more information" argument doesn't really seem consistent given that your position already contradicts what major health organizations are recommending based on current information. If you're not listening to them now, what reason is there to believe that you'll listen to them later when they talk about "more information"?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Separating vaccinated and unvaccinated people in various settings/venues is nothing new; it's what many places had to do before to combat highly infectious diseases. You want to talk about the long-term effects of mandatory vaccines and "segregation"—that is, separation of vaccinated and unvaccinated people? Sure: We can talk about how that has historically helped us control highly contagious diseases like measles, polio, and chickenpox.

Long term effects of mandates not vaccines.

I don't even support mandatory vaccination for COVID, but a lot of your arguments in this thread sound rather arbitrary and not based on consideration of how humanity has previously dealt with other contagious diseases.

That's the only thing I have issues with is mandatory vaccination. I've never taken a vaccine intentionally and never will, so.

I don't live around people "like that" to affect towards herd immunity. If I lived in a more condensed city then it would make more sense. You're not thinking of people's individual situations. Even doctors do that.

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here, but it seemed to me your usage of the word "propaganda" carried an inherently negative connotation. I don't think governmental encouragement of vaccine uptake is negative in the slightest, since it's aligned with the advice of relevant expert organizations.

Propaganda does have negative connotation but so studied recently it can be used for good insofar it helps the public come together in times of war and crisis.

Your rejection of vaccines and your arguments about "potential risk" to justify said rejection both fly in the face of current medical advice:

I never rejected the vaccine in and of itself.

Please show me where I said vaccines were bad or anything of that nature?

Scientific consensus that is based on peer review is vastly different from majority rule just because they're a majority. When a majority of experts review a given study or arrive at a specific conclusion and verify its soundness via peer review, it means their methods have been reviewed by other experts in the given field to ensure that the conclusion is correct. Scientific organizations don't just get together and decide to roll out advice arbitrarily or without peer review.

I know appealing to authority helps some but its just not the one hundred basis in which I hope most people base their medical decisions on.

There are good reasons to warn people about the potentially significant threats to their health or even their life during a pandemic. Touting one's lack of "fear" only goes so far when a country has to deal with an overwhelmed medical infrastructure. If a government needs to use incentives to avoid such a situation, that's still better than the alternative, which is to look the other way or minimize the scope of the problem.

That's what propaganda does. So when I mentioned it, it was observation. In a negative light, I don't care for it-it rubs me the wrong way but in itself (like vaccines) it's not bad.

What you see or don't see has no bearing on medical facts, since you're neither an epidemiologist nor a scientist who can arrive at such conclusions based on peer-reviewed findings.

Also, the whole "when they have more information" argument doesn't really seem consistent given that your position already contradicts what major health organizations are recommending based on current information. If you're not listening to them now, what reason is there to believe that you'll listen to them later when they talk about "more information"?

I said "they" not me.

It doesn't. It just means I intentionally do not want to take the vaccine. The major organizations can say Trileptal works but I won't take Trileptal because it doesn't control my seizures. They say Asprin works. It works but I rather take Advil cause it relieves my headaches faster. They say the flu vaccine works and I decide not to take that.

You can listen, agree with, and be well-informed "and" make a decision in your and others best interest because of it. It's not magic. Many people can think beyond what they read and hear.

 

[SomeRandom]

Long term effects of mandates not vaccines.

What are the long term effects of mandates specifically? I’m curious

That's the only thing I have issues with is mandatory vaccination. I've never taken a vaccine intentionally and never will, so.

Since the US has yet to make it mandatory, what’s your problem with encouraging people to follow actual sound medical advice?

I don't live around people "like that" to affect towards herd immunity. If I lived in a more condensed city then it would make more sense. You're not thinking of people's individual situations. Even doctors do that.

Doctors still encourage people in remote locations to vaccinate. Like what kind of weak doctors do you guys have? I know people in remote locations, some I even consider family, they still have to vaccinate in general.

Propaganda does have negative connotation but so studied recently it can be used for good insofar it helps the public come together in times of war and crisis.

Propaganda has historically been used to encourage everything from eating your veggies to discouraging usage of illegal drugs. I don’t always agree with it myself but encouraging vaccination with “propaganda” is nothing new. They used to do that with the small pox vaccine like a hundred years ago. So what?

I never rejected the vaccine in and of itself.

So why care what Biden says about those rejecting the vaccine then?

Please show me where I said vaccines were bad or anything of that nature?

So why care about Biden calling out folks not vaccinating then? You think I give a damn if my PM ridicules people not following lockdown mandates? I’m not fond of the guy but I’d expect him to admonish such folks. You seem to want your leaders to give everyone a hug all the time.

I know appealing to authority helps some but its just not the one hundred basis in which I hope most people base their medical decisions on.

Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy in a debate but it’s not the same thing as pointing out that multiple nameless medical experts have given advice based on a shared conclusion. Appealing to authority is when you cite a specific expert(s) to support your position. If “appealing to authority” is not enough to convince folks then they must be the same folks who refuse to listen to biologists about biology. So in other words, the Facebook mum everyone else rolls their eyes at. That’s the vibe I’m getting
I can respect folks who are just hesitant. But governors should know better

That's what propaganda does. So when I mentioned it, it was observation. In a negative light, I don't care for it-it rubs me the wrong way but in itself (like vaccines) it's not bad.

Propaganda is indeed cringe. Who cares though?
You know what I hate? There’s this app that we had to download. It’s a tracking app, we use it to scan a code that’s been posted outside all businesses and shopping centres. It tells the government where you’ve been. It’s all very Big Brother like. Disgusts me, really. But that’s emotionally. Rationally I know that it’s used for contact tracing purposes to ensure they can find anyone who may have been exposed to COVID (if such cases appear to originate in a specific location.) But you know? I sucked it up and use the app anyway. Because this issue is bigger than my personal feelings. Still find it creepy nonetheless

I said "they" not me.

It doesn't. It just means I intentionally do not want to take the vaccine. The major organizations can say Trileptal works but I won't take Trileptal because it doesn't control my seizures. They say Asprin works. It works but I rather take Advil cause it relieves my headaches faster. They say the flu vaccine works and I decide not to take that.

You can listen, agree with, and be well-informed "and" make a decision in your and others best interest because of it. It's not magic. Many people can think beyond what they read and hear.

That’s all very well and good. We all should weigh our options when it comes to medicine.I don’t really take the flu vaccine either. Ain’t we both privileged? But your last sentence reads like the same logic flat earthers use when called out on their views. Just an observation

 

[Father Heathen]

When leaders criticize their own citizens and governors, as leaders, it says something about their loyalty to their country.

Setting aside that we've already established why this is nonsense, it's interesting that you don't suggest that it should go both ways.

Can you imagine people going to war and the sergeant insults his platoon in a way that decreases their moral (rather than for training). Who would want to follow a sergeant or even the military if they can't treat their own militants respectfully relating to their duties.

Do you really think officers let those under their command misbehave with impunity for the sake of morale?

Those in positions of power and influence should be held to high standards and high expectations. They need to be held accountable when they fail in their important responsibilities.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What are the long term effects of mandates specifically? I’m curious

SomeRandom. It's not an attack or argument against the vaccine or anything like that. Laws and mandates that segregate people in US history for political and/or religious reasons leave "side effects." As I mentioned in the example of GRID... people were literally afraid of homosexuals because they felt they were contagious and spread the AIDS disease. I'm not sure if they had mandates back then but our healthcare system sure did blanketed them as the cause of the AIDS pandemic.

Do you believe Everything concerning vaccines, masks, and mandates are positive without any negative implications at all?

No you have any skepticism in what you read and hear?
It's not a bad thing to say "Hm, I wonder if this is true?"

It's just facts not an opposition to an argument either direction. I honestly don't know how the long-term effects will manifest. However, anything in politics and anything that concerns people's health, finances, and lifestyle in general regardless the motive have some side affects.... it's good to acknowledge and accept it even if you don't agree with it. That's just life.

Since the US has yet to make it mandatory, what’s your problem with encouraging people to follow actual sound medical advice?

This is a 100% lie SomeRandom.

Please tell me where I encourage people to not take sound medical advice???

I said be skeptical. When I had my brain surgery, multiple meds, and so forth I was skeptical. When I had my cancer scare, I was skeptical. I didn't appeal to authority and this situation with the COVID vaccines are not any different.

Doctors still encourage people in remote locations to vaccinate. Like what kind of weak doctors do you guys have? I know people in remote locations, some I even consider family, they still have to vaccinate in general.

You're putting intentions in my mouth that don't exist.

Propaganda has historically been used to encourage everything from eating your veggies to discouraging usage of illegal drugs. I don’t always agree with it myself but encouraging vaccination with “propaganda” is nothing new. They used to do that with the small pox vaccine like a hundred years ago. So what?

It rubs me the wrong way. There's nothing inherently wrong with it until people are coerced, given ultimatums, loose their jobs and lives because of it. Its the results of what propaganda "can" do and in the US there's a lot of evidence of it. But people either don't see it or don't think its important compared to the pandemic.

So why care what Biden says about those rejecting the vaccine then?

I have no clue. That was never my argument.

So why care about Biden calling out folks not vaccinating then? You think I give a damn if my PM ridicules people not following lockdown mandates? I’m not fond of the guy but I’d expect him to admonish such folks. You seem to want your leaders to give everyone a hug all the time.

Because words turn to actions and IF he set out a mandate and healthcare services make eligibility requirements such as vaccination that affects me greatly.

You're not in the US SomeRandom.

No. I want leaders to respect their citizens and governors if they believe they want to work together as the United States.

If there becomes a big political division to get governors and the unvaccinated to "get out of the way" then that's headed towards a civil war.

But who cars about that long term effect?

Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy in a debate but it’s not the same thing as pointing out that multiple nameless medical experts have given advice based on a shared conclusion. Appealing to authority is when you cite a specific expert(s) to support your position. If “appealing to authority” is not enough to convince folks then they must be the same folks who refuse to listen to biologists about biology. So in other words, the Facebook mum everyone else rolls their eyes at. That’s the vibe I’m getting

I can respect folks who are just hesitant. But governors should know better

Yes. You guys are appealing to authority to cite your position.

I never said the authority were not experts.

SomeRandom. It's like anything else. I go to my doctor and pick A treatment and not B. In another case I don't take one med but another. It just depends on the situation. It's just what patients should do when they are asked to take something for their well-being and others.

Doctors would expect patients to ask questions without being pushed.

That's another media grab. "Hesitancy" It makes it seem that unvaccinated are just about to decide to get the vaccine-giving vaccinated hope with that possibility. Media uses words to incite emotions and feelings and so forth to get a specific message across and I wish people were a bit skeptical of it all despite their opinions.

Propaganda is indeed cringe. Who cares though?
You know what I hate? There’s this app that we had to download. It’s a tracking app, we use it to scan a code that’s been posted outside all businesses and shopping centres. It tells the government where you’ve been. It’s all very Big Brother like. Disgusts me, really. But that’s emotionally. Rationally I know that it’s used for contact tracing purposes to ensure they can find anyone who may have been exposed to COVID (if such cases appear to originate in a specific location.) But you know? I sucked it up and use the app anyway. Because this issue is bigger than my personal feelings. Still find it creepy nonetheless

That probably wouldn't fly for long in the States but then NY started vaccine passports, so. Right now they are having debates about security when it comes to vaccine passports.

It just depends on your situation. Apps and masks aren't anything compared to vaccines.

That’s all very well and good. We all should weigh our options when it comes to medicine.I don’t really take the flu vaccine either. Ain’t we both privileged? But your last sentence reads like the same logic flat earthers use when called out on their views. Just an observation

We weigh the risk and benefits before deciding to take the vaccine (well, I would hope). If one's risks of getting COVID is low, why would they take the vaccine and be pushed just the same as one who is at higher risk because location, activity, health, and age?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Setting aside that we've already established why this is nonsense, it's interesting that you don't suggest that it should go both ways.

Governors badmouth the president too if you want to flip it.

If you are a CEO of a company and you tell your employees and consumers if they are not with you they are against you and in front of public that would cause problems with your employee moral and that will also loose consumers and thus your business.

Do you really think officers let those under their command misbehave with impunity for the sake of morale?

Those in positions of power and influence should be held to high standards and high expectations. They need to be held accountable when they fail in their important responsibilities.

No. But officers should be role models and discipline shouldn't attack their followers character.

I'm sure there are other ways to say if you're not for us you're against us.

What CEO would say that to his employees and consumers and expect them to think nice of the CEO because of his power and message?

 

[SomeRandom]

SomeRandom. It's not an attack or argument against the vaccine or anything like that. Laws and mandates that segregate people in US history for political and/or religious reasons leave "side effects." As I mentioned in the example of GRID... people were literally afraid of homosexuals because they felt they were contagious and spread the AIDS disease. I'm not sure if they had mandates back then but our healthcare system sure did blanketed them as the cause of the AIDS pandemic.

Your healthcare is an absolute joke on the world stage, I hope you know that right? That’s not even taking into account COVID. Like you guys pay to give birth. Something unfathomable to literally every civilised country in the world. Don’t talk to me about healthcare bro

Do you believe Everything concerning vaccines, masks, and mandates are positive without any negative implications at all?

Do I believe in the science as reported by experts in multiple disciplines? Sure. Just like I accept evolution and the world is in fact round. Wtf?

No you have any skepticism in what you read and hear?
It's not a bad thing to say "Hm, I wonder if this is true?"

I have heard people argue against science. That’s not the same as people disproving scientific evidence dude lol

It's just facts not an opposition to an argument either direction. I honestly don't know how the long-term effects will manifest. However, anything in politics and anything that concerns people's health, finances, and lifestyle in general regardless the motive have some side affects.... it's good to acknowledge and accept it even if you don't agree with it. That's just life.

So basically you have no quantifiable scientific evidence. Why should I believe you then?

This is a 100% lie SomeRandom.

Please tell me where I encourage people to not take sound medical advice?

With your posts. You constantly bolster the position against medical science and then claim you’re not doing so. You’ve done that in this very thread. So if you’re serious about people following expert advice, denounce those who do not take the vaccine. Right now. Go ahead, since you’re not against people following medical advice

Denounce folks not following science right now or expose yourself
Go ahead

I said be skeptical. When I had my brain surgery, multiple meds, and so forth I was skeptical. When I had my cancer scare, I was skeptical. I didn't appeal to authority and this situation with the COVID vaccines are not any different.

“ Be skeptical” is the same advice creationists use when asked about biology. Don’t give me that

You're putting intentions in my mouth that don't exist.

Then prove me wrong with your actions. You’re perfectly free to do so

It rubs me the wrong way. There's nothing inherently wrong with it until people are coerced, given ultimatums, loose their jobs and lives because of it. Its the results of what propaganda "can" do and in the US there's a lot of evidence of it. But people either don't see it or don't think its important compared to the pandemic.

Oh so following expert advice is not wrong until people who ignore it are faced with consequences?

I have no clue. That was never my argument.

You made that exact argument. Prove me wrong

Because words turn to actions and IF he set out a mandate and healthcare services make eligibility requirements such as vaccination that affects me greatly.

How exactly?
You're not in the US SomeRandom.

Thankfully not. You guys are acting out a soap opera it seems like

No. I want leaders to respect their citizens and governors if they believe they want to work together as the United States.

Leaders are jerks. And if they can’t call out their underlings then they’re weak. Sorry

If there becomes a big political division to get governors and the unvaccinated to "get out of the way" then that's headed towards a civil war.

Only Americans can turn a universal good into a political issue. You guys are just wow.
I agree. If they don’t want to vaccinate then let them live with other unhealthy people and not allow the society to crumble under a pandemic

But who cars about that long term effect?

Clearly you do. You brought up the issue in the first place. Or did you forget that I specifically asked you for the long term affects of mandates? Still waiting for that answer by the way

Yes. You guys are appealing to authority to cite your position.

Nope that’s not what the fallacy actually means. Try again. And yeah who do you go to when you injure yourself? The shaman healer or your GP? (Doctor)? Genuine question?

I never said the authority were not experts.

So why ignore them then!?

SomeRandom. It's like anything else. I go to my doctor and pick A treatment and not B. In another case I don't take one med but another. It just depends on the situation. It's just what patients should do when they are asked to take something for their well-being and others.
Which is well within your rights to do so. A doctor worth his salt would recommend a vaccination though. Telling that you ignore expert advice apparently

Doctors would expect patients to ask questions without being pushed.
They do and the doctors give advice regardless of their snowflake feelings.

That's another media grab. "Hesitancy" It makes it seem that unvaccinated are just about to decide to get the vaccine-giving vaccinated hope with that possibility. Media uses words to incite emotions and feelings and so forth to get a specific message across and I wish people were a bit skeptical of it all despite their opinions.

What would you call it then? Because hesitancy is what seems very applicable to me. It’s quite the PC term even

That probably wouldn't fly for long in the States but then NY started vaccine passports, so. Right now they are having debates about security when it comes to vaccine passports.

So your government couldn’t care less about protecting its citizens? Good to know

It just depends on your situation. Apps and masks aren't anything compared to vaccines.

Vaccines have been a staple of modern medicine for over 100 years my friend. You seriously arguing against medical science right now?

We weigh the risk and benefits before deciding to take the vaccine (well, I would hope). If one's risks of getting COVID is low, why would they take the vaccine and be pushed just the same as one who is at higher risk because location, activity, health, and age?

I can respect that. Honestly.
But the longer people Umm and ahh the longer the virus kills people. That’s fact. And facts don’t care about your feelings

 

[Stevicus]

"Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but I for one am not going to stand here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Take a break. There's no issue here on my side so calm down a bit. Emotionalism (observation) isn't necessary here.

Your healthcare is an absolute joke on the world stage, I hope you know that right? That’s not even taking into account COVID. Like you guys pay to give birth. Something unfathomable to literally every civilised country in the world. Don’t talk to me about healthcare bro

My healthcare system saved my life.

Do I believe in the science as reported by experts in multiple disciplines? Sure. Just like I accept evolution and the world is in fact round. Wtf?

Of course.

I know med X works cause science says so doesn't mean it's in my best interest to take it.

Do you understand the difference?

I have heard people argue against science. That’s not the same as people disproving scientific evidence dude lol

I'm not in either catagory.

So basically you have no quantifiable scientific evidence. Why should I believe you then?

Sheesh, SomeRandom.

What on earth do you mean? Do you believe politics and people's concerns about health, finances, and lifestyle doesn't have some affect on the economy?

With your posts. You constantly bolster the position against medical science and then claim you’re not doing so. You’ve done that in this very thread. So if you’re serious about people following expert advice, denounce those who do not take the vaccine. Right now. Go ahead, since you’re not against people following medical advice

Where have I done that???? Give me a direct example. I can't take your word for it especially not in this tone.

Where on earth have I denounced people taking the vaccine????

Are you sure you got the right person SomeRandom?

Honestly???

Denounce folks not following science right now or expose yourself. Go ahead

SomeRandom. I did no such thing. That's all on you. Do you have evidence?

“ Be skeptical” is the same advice creationists use when asked about biology. Don’t give me that

I'm skeptical of what I put in my body.

Like I said, anything health related I'm skeptical.

COVID vaccines are no different.

Then prove me wrong with your actions. You’re perfectly free to do so

Online?

Give me evidence your opinions are facts?

Oh so following expert advice is not wrong until people who ignore it are faced with consequences?

Sheesh. I literally have to re-read what I said to figure where you're getting these accusations from.

It rubs me the wrong way. There's nothing inherently wrong with it until people are coerced, given ultimatums, loose their jobs and lives because of it. Its the results of what propaganda "can" do and in the US there's a lot of evidence of it. But people either don't see it or don't think its important compared to the pandemic.


1. Propaganda rubs me the wrong way

2. There's nothing inherently wrong with it (propaganda) until people are coerced, given ultimatums, loose their jobs, and lives because of it

3. (This is what) propaganda "can" do and the US is evidence of it

4. People either see it or they don't think it's important compared to the pandemic

Where have I mentioned expert advice in this and how did you come to this conclusion/opinion?

You made that exact argument. Prove me wrong

Instead of the attack, just copy and past what you're referring to so we can discuss accordingly.

Thankfully not. You guys are acting out a soap opera it seems like

Not sure how this relates to why I'm concerned over this and how it affects me greatly.

Leaders are jerks. And if they can’t call out their underlings then they’re weak. Sorry

But we have to follow leaders or we can't get stuff done.

Only Americans can turn a universal good into a political issue. You guys are just wow.

I agree. If they don’t want to vaccinate then let them live with other unhealthy people and not allow the society to crumble under a pandemic

Don't take it out on us. If you don't know how this division affects people beyond dying, then I don't know what to say.

It's a balance of prioritize.

Clearly you do. You brought up the issue in the first place. Or did you forget that I specifically asked you for the long term affects of mandates? Still waiting for that answer by the way

Of course I do.

Yes I said that.

Your point? (Productive point please)

Nope that’s not what the fallacy actually means. Try again. And yeah who do you go to when you injure yourself? The shaman healer or your GP? (Doctor)? Genuine question?

That's what you said in your first or second sentence.

Not sure about the rest. I don't think it's a genuine question given what I'm reading so far.

So why ignore them then!?

I don't follow anyone just because they are an expert. I would hope others would not either.

Doctors would expect patients to ask questions without being pushed.

They do and the doctors give advice regardless of their snowflake feelings.

Exactly. I've been in the hospital most my child and teen life.

Doctors want you to be skeptical of medications they recommend (not beg you to take), treatments, and such. I would hope all patients are skeptical with new things brought to them.

What would you call it then? Because hesitancy is what seems very applicable to me. It’s quite the PC term even

I don't know why you can't see the propaganda in all of this. It's not a bad thing in and of itself.

So your government couldn’t care less about protecting its citizens? Good to know

If thats the case, why implement them in NY?

Cut it SomeRandom. This isn't needed.

Vaccines have been a staple of modern medicine for over 100 years my friend. You seriously arguing against medical science right now?

No. Im saying like the flu vaccine, some meds, and treatments I choose not to take them.

Thousands of vaccines, meds, and treatments work.

Doesn't mean I'll take them all because of someone I don't know tells me to take it.

I have to assess whether its benefitial-if the risks aren't higher than the benefits
I also have to assess whether it is appropriate
I have to do my own thinking "too"

I can respect that. Honestly.
But the longer people Umm and ahh the longer the virus kills people. That’s fact. And facts don’t care about your feelings

My point is the same. Some people weigh the risks and benefits. Some choose to vaccinate and others do not.

Cut it with the accusations.

These feelings aren't needed to discuss this topic. They highly invalidate your point and its hard to take your questions and points genuinely because of it.

So far you haven't respected anything I said.

 

[SomeRandom]

Take a break. There's no issue here on my side so calm down a bit. Emotionalism (observation) isn't necessary here.



My healthcare system saved my life.



Of course.

I know med X works cause science says so doesn't mean it's in my best interest to take it.

Do you understand the difference?



I'm not in either catagory.



Sheesh, SomeRandom.

What on earth do you mean? Do you believe politics and people's concerns about health, finances, and lifestyle doesn't have some affect on the economy?



Where have I done that???? Give me a direct example. I can't take your word for it especially not in this tone.

Where on earth have I denounced people taking the vaccine????

Are you sure you got the right person SomeRandom?

Honestly???



SomeRandom. I did no such thing. That's all on you. Do you have evidence?



I'm skeptical of what I put in my body.

Like I said, anything health related I'm skeptical.

COVID vaccines are no different.



Online?

Give me evidence your opinions are facts?



Sheesh. I literally have to re-read what I said to figure where you're getting these accusations from.

It rubs me the wrong way. There's nothing inherently wrong with it until people are coerced, given ultimatums, loose their jobs and lives because of it. Its the results of what propaganda "can" do and in the US there's a lot of evidence of it. But people either don't see it or don't think its important compared to the pandemic.


1. Propaganda rubs me the wrong way

2. There's nothing inherently wrong with it (propaganda) until people are coerced, given ultimatums, loose their jobs, and lives because of it

3. (This is what) propaganda "can" do and the US is evidence of it

4. People either see it or they don't think it's important compared to the pandemic

Where have I mentioned expert advice in this and how did you come to this conclusion/opinion?



Instead of the attack, just copy and past what you're referring to so we can discuss accordingly.



Not sure how this relates to why I'm concerned over this and how it affects me greatly.



But we have to follow leaders or we can't get stuff done.



Don't take it out on us. If you don't know how this division affects people beyond dying, then I don't know what to say.

It's a balance of prioritize.



Of course I do.

Yes I said that.

Your point? (Productive point please)



That's what you said in your first or second sentence.

Not sure about the rest. I don't think it's a genuine question given what I'm reading so far.



I don't follow anyone just because they are an expert. I would hope others would not either.



Exactly. I've been in the hospital most my child and teen life.

Doctors want you to be skeptical of medications they recommend (not beg you to take), treatments, and such. I would hope all patients are skeptical with new things brought to them.



I don't know why you can't see the propaganda in all of this. It's not a bad thing in and of itself.



If thats the case, why implement them in NY?

Cut it SomeRandom. This isn't needed.



No. Im saying like the flu vaccine, some meds, and treatments I choose not to take them.

Thousands of vaccines, meds, and treatments work.

Doesn't mean I'll take them all because of someone I don't know tells me to take it.

I have to assess whether its benefitial-if the risks aren't higher than the benefits
I also have to assess whether it is appropriate
I have to do my own thinking "too"



My point is the same. Some people weigh the risks and benefits. Some choose to vaccinate and others do not.

Cut it with the accusations.

These feelings aren't needed to discuss this topic. They highly invalidate your point and its hard to take your questions and points genuinely because of it.

So far you haven't respected anything I said.

You know what. I’m going to bow out. Because I think this conversation has become too toxic. I apologise if you felt attacked. I think your comparisons to Nazi Germany probably angered me more than I thought. Have a nice day

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You know what. I’m going to bow out. Because I think this conversation has become too toxic. I apologise if you felt attacked. I think your comparisons to Nazi Germany probably angered me more than I thought. Have a nice day

It was the first thing that came to mind. I offered less extreme examples and didn't get into it. I thought you'd be able to understand the context despite the content.

A while back there was one RFian mentioned genocide to unvaccinated people. Literally. I had to take a run. So, conversations can be toxic but I think online its a bit easier to take a break than in person.

 

[SomeRandom]

It was the first thing that came to mind. I offered less extreme examples and didn't get into it. I thought you'd be able to understand the context despite the content.

A while back there was one RFian mentioned genocide to unvaccinated people. Literally. I had to take a run. So, conversations can be toxic but I think online its a bit easier to take a break than in person.

I understood the point you were trying to make, for what that’s worth. I think. You felt a sense of persecution? I mean you’re entitled to your opinion, I guess

I just found the comparison in very poor taste, to say the least. There are just some lines you don’t cross.
You just don’t get to appropriate something so horrific like that so casually.
Same with your other comparisons. I personally found them in poor taste and hyperbolic.

And for what it’s worth, I do not think it’s acceptable to say this pandemic is a genocide of the unvaccinated either.

We good?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understood the point you were trying to make, for what that’s worth. I think. You felt a sense of persecution? I mean you’re entitled to your opinion, I guess

I just found the comparison in very poor taste, to say the least. There are just some lines you don’t cross.
You just don’t get to appropriate something so horrific like that so casually.
Same with your other comparisons. I personally found them in poor taste and hyperbolic.

And for what it’s worth, I do not think it’s acceptable to say this pandemic is a genocide of the unvaccinated either.

We good?

Last note. It wasn't my idea but one news article awhile back when researching. I did a small assignment on the connection between the two in relation to individual freedoms and vaccine mandates not genocide. The article had a good point but if it wasn't academic in nature, I think others would have reacted just the same.

 

[SomeRandom]

Last note. It wasn't my idea but one news article awhile back when researching. I did a small assignment on the connection between the two in relation to individual freedoms and vaccine mandates not genocide. The article had a good point but if it wasn't academic in nature, I think others would have reacted just the same.

Perhaps.
I’m not for vaccine mandates for the record. I think that may happen in the future, doubt it would happen in the States though. Maybe strongly encouraged. I suspect my country might mandate one for entry in the future though, I honestly don’t know.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

3-19

Do you feel the pandemic is an excuse to badmouth our country and governors?

Just wanted to read you guys' thoughts

Enjoy

Freedom means being able to rant about our country.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I’m only really for it for healthcare places.

Perhaps.
I’m not for vaccine mandates for the record. I think that may happen in the future, doubt it would happen in the States though. Maybe strongly encouraged. I suspect my country might mandate one for entry in the future though, I honestly don’t know.