Badmouthing our country

[Unveiled Artist]

Please don’t trivialise the actions of the Third Reich like that. The Nazis burned the homes, businesses of Jews, forced them into social isolation with intimidation of violence, literally fired them from all jobs for no other reason than their Jewishness and openly vilified them with hate filled propaganda to the public, encouraging folk to report them and see them as children sacrificing satanic worshippers who controlled the world’s finance.
And that was well before the Holocaust even.

That is in no way comparable to a government saying “hey, maybe wear masks out in public to slow the spread of a known contagious disease.”
Just no. Please don’t trivialise actual historical barbarism and atrocities by comparing the two.

Do you get my point though?

Despite the strong emotions this Nazi thing causes, the point is that these frustrations he has leads to division. We can mask it under "he's doing it for the well-fare of America" but there is much more involved than that. First words, then actions, and everyone cheers over segregation. Another example would be separate but equal (less extreme example). Regardless, the point is division and badmouth has consequences and I do not believe you can be a leader of a country and only "talk to" those who support that leader's effort and disregard those who "are told" they are against it.

 

[SomeRandom]

Do you get my point though?

Despite the strong emotions this Nazi thing causes, the point is that these frustrations he has leads to division. We can mask it under "he's doing it for the well-fare of America" but there is much more involved than that. First words, then actions, and everyone cheers over segregation. Another example would be separate but equal (less extreme example). Regardless, the point is division and badmouth has consequences and I do not believe you can be a leader of a country and only "talk to" those who support that leader's effort and disregard those who "are told" they are against it.

You can be strongly frustrated and say as much without diluting the horrors faced by those actually persecuted and delegitimatised by literal Nazis. Please, I ask you as a human being, do not trivialise actual honest to god victim hood or worse try to co opt it for another group. There are more civilised ways


And can I just say, if you don’t “badmouth” there are consequences as well. There’s a reason why Trump is often accused of allowing white supremacy to foster, regardless of his personal views. He never once called them out, he vaguely legitimised them (arguably) on his platform and just stood back and watched. And the world witnessed the atrocious consequences of such a lack of “badmouthing” if you will

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A responsible leader would do what they can to stop the spread of dumb disinformation that endangers the public.

That and what disinformation can we find without intentionally searching for it?

It's not like this plops in front of our faces. There is so much censored that the spread of information about COVID and masks (facts or opinions that agree on the facts) are flooding the media so much that I'd say people are more influenced by factual information than misinformation. That and they have to not take things for granted or appeal to authority when assessing objectively what they read and hear. While many don't have a criteria to judge such things, it would be pointless to say if one had strong criteria for facts one should use it and not depend on "fact checkers."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can be strongly frustrated and say as much without diluting the horrors faced by those actually persecuted and delegitimatised by literal Nazis. Please, I ask you as a human being, do not trivialise actual honest to god victim hood or worse try to co opt it for another group. There are more civilised ways

In a less extreme example, it would be separate but equal when it comes to race discrimination in America. You also have other examples like in the 70s and 80s people thought homosexuals carry the AIDS disease (Gay related immune deficiency). Soon the disease's name is changed to AIDS or Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. It's sad when it comes to segregation because people feared gay people of catching the AIDs virus. There's a sad history behind it.

The point is the same, though. Health crisis is short term but if a leader wants everyone to work together he can't badmouth his citizens and governors in the process. While many provaxxers feel justified in hating and putting down unvaccinated (directly or indirectly-in one's head or by activism) and cheering for their punishment and potential homelessness, I believe a leader shouldn't support these things.

And can I just say, if you don’t “badmouth” there are consequences as well. There’s a reason why Trump is often accused of allowing white supremacy to foster, regardless of his personal views. He never once called them out, he vaguely legitimised them (arguably) on his platform and just stood back and watched. And the world witnessed the atrocious consequences of such a lack of “badmouthing” if you will

The badmouth leads to bad actions. It's not a difference of opinion.

 

[Father Heathen]

In a less extreme example, it would be separate but equal when it comes to race discrimination in America. You also have other examples like in the 70s and 80s people thought homosexuals carry the AIDS disease (Gay related immune deficiency). Soon the disease's name is changed to AIDS or Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. It's sad when it comes to segregation because people feared gay people of catching the AIDs virus. There's a sad history behind it.

More disgusting tripe. Being criticized for believing and doing stupid things is not at all like being persecuted over race or sexuality.

 

[crossfire]

<....>
The badmouth leads to bad actions. It's not a difference of opinion.

Just what further bad actions are these governors who insist on endangering school kids and will not allow others to take steps to protect them? Isn't that evil enough? Are these governors looking for an excuse to spread more harm? Will they manufacture an excuse for more malevolent deeds? Calling them out on their malevolent mask mandate banning actions--will they relabel this "badmouthing" as an excuse to commit more evil?
Stay tuned.....

It freaking reads more like a bad soapbox storyline propagated by drama queens than anything.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just what further bad actions are these governors who insist on endangering school kids and will not allow others to take steps to protect them? Isn't that evil enough? Are these governors looking for an excuse to spread more harm? Will they manufacture an excuse for more malevolent deeds? Calling them out on their malevolent mask mandate banning actions--will they relabel this "badmouthing" as an excuse to commit more evil?
Stay tuned.....

It freaking reads more like a bad soapbox storyline propagated by drama queens than anything.

It's the consequence of dividing the country that will cause long-term effects not just COVID. For example, New York already has a vaccination passport program. While it may help the good of the nation, it also segregates the US because its assuming unvaccinated people are literally time bombs despite their not having COVID. While this may seem heroic for some people, I believe long term-at least for those who see it-will cause just as much harm.

Regardless the reasoning, the point is when you badmouth your own citizens and leaders it sends a poor impression on how America is handling the problem and how it attacks its own people while saving the victims at the same time.

He could have expressed it to where he gets the people's attention than insult them.

That would never get people to vaccinate.

 

[crossfire]

It's the consequence of dividing the country that will cause long-term effects not just COVID. For example, New York already has a vaccination passport program. While it may help the good of the nation, it also segregates the US because its assuming unvaccinated people are literally time bombs despite their not having COVID. While this may seem heroic for some people, I believe long term-at least for those who see it-will cause just as much harm.

Regardless the reasoning, the point is when you badmouth your own citizens and leaders it sends a poor impression on how America is handling the problem and how it attacks its own people while saving the victims at the same time.

He could have expressed it to where he gets the people's attention than insult them.

That would never get people to vaccinate.

Anyone who knowingly puts children in harm's way and tries to hogtie those who would try to protect those children from that harm are evil and need to be called out on it. Children under 12 can't be vaccinated for covid, so the vaccine debate is off the table as far as they are concerned. The OP video was about the children and their safety. If you, like those governors forbidding mask mandates in schools, think it is OK to put children in harm's way to further your political agenda, then I will call you evil as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@crossfire
Anyone who knowingly puts children in harm's way and tries to hogtie those who would try to protect those children from that harm are evil and need to be called out on it. Children under 12 can't be vaccinated for covid, so the vaccine debate is off the table as far as they are concerned. The OP was about the children and their safety.

If you, like those governors forbidding mask mandates in schools, think it is OK to put children in harm's way to further your political agenda,

then I will call you evil as well.

-

I was saying that leaders should not need to criticize their own citizens and governors to make a point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

More disgusting tripe. Being criticized for believing and doing stupid things is not at all like being persecuted over race or sexuality.

When leaders criticize their own citizens and governors, as leaders, it says something about their loyalty to their country.

Can you imagine people going to war and the sergeant insults his platoon in a way that decreases their moral (rather than for training). Who would want to follow a sergeant or even the military if they can't treat their own militants respectfully relating to their duties.

 

[crossfire]

@crossfire
Anyone who knowingly puts children in harm's way and tries to hogtie those who would try to protect those children from that harm are evil and need to be called out on it. Children under 12 can't be vaccinated for covid, so the vaccine debate is off the table as far as they are concerned. The OP was about the children and their safety.

If you, like those governors forbidding mask mandates in schools, think it is OK to put children in harm's way to further your political agenda,

then I will call you evil as well.

-

I was saying that leaders should not need to criticize their own citizens and governors to make a point.

Biden stopped short of using the word "evil." He graciously gave them the option of their rational minds being raptured away by emotion, resulting in "neanderthal thinking." Those governors then have the option of seeing reason and swallowing their pride for allowing themselves to get raptured away, and change course to a less harmful one. He also had a plan to contain the harm in case the governors were truly evil and refuse to turn away from their harmful plans.

So, looking at the situation rationally and realistically: the governors putting children in harm's way were either dumb (rational mind swept away) or evil (knowing what they did and calculating their harmful action.) I don't think either option is the hallmark of a qualified leader. Being momentarily dumb and then seeing the light is forgivable. Calculated evil--much less forgivable in this context. Both are harmful.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I actually don't think of evil versus holy type of thing. If I can't apply it to myself, I can't on others.

Biden stopped short of using the word "evil." He graciously gave them the option of their rational minds being raptured away by emotion, resulting in "neanderthal thinking." Those governors then have the option of seeing reason and swallowing their pride for allowing themselves to get raptured away, and change course to a less harmful one. He also had a plan to contain the harm in case the governors were truly evil and refuse to turn away from their harmful plans.

It's not a war. All the governors didn't belittle vaccinations. Florida governor just said that masks should be up to the parents choices not masks excluded altogether. No mandates doesn't mean they're just going to forget about precautions. (And to flip this, governors who spoke ill of their leaders are showing a bad example as well. It works both ways).

I mean calling out people's actions is fine but in this case it's not going to get people vaccinated. Saying they either help us or get out of the way to both unvaccinated citizens (implied so far I've checked) and directly to governors is a poor way to get their attention. It's counterproductive insofar that even some of the governors were hotheads about it.

So, looking at the situation rationally and realistically: the governors putting children in harm's way were either dumb (rational mind swept away) or evil (knowing what they did and calculating their harmful action.) I don't think either option is the hallmark of a qualified leader. Being momentarily dumb and then seeing the light is forgivable. Calculated evil--much less forgivable in this context. Both are harmful.

I don't know of the other governors but Florida left it up to the parents. It's on the parents.

Do you believe a leader should see their citizens and governors as evil justified because thousands of people died because of the virus?

 

[crossfire]

When leaders criticize their own citizens and governors, as leaders, it says something about their loyalty to their country.

Let's see, which is more harmful:

• putting children at risk and hogtying those who would try to keep the children safe
• hurting the feeling of those who put the children at risk and hogtied those who would try to keep them safe

I would say those putting the children at risk are more harmful. The children are more important than their fragile snowflake feelings.

Can you imagine people going to war and the sergeant insults his platoon in a way that decreases their moral (rather than for training). Who would want to follow a sergeant or even the military if they can't treat their own militants respectfully relating to their duties.

Let's see, if the Sargent was saying, 'Hey dummies, don't walk across that minefield!" I would say the Sargent was being a good leader!

 

[crossfire]

I actually don't think of evil versus holy type of thing. If I can't apply it to myself, I can't on others.



It's not a war. All the governors didn't belittle vaccinations.

It's not about vaccinations. It's about protecting children with masks. Quit changing the subject.

Florida governor just said that masks should be up to the parents choices not masks excluded altogether. No mandates doesn't mean they're just going to forget about precautions. (And to flip this, governors who spoke ill of their leaders are showing a bad example as well. It works both ways).

The Florida governor threatened to withhold funding from schools that issued mask mandates. When the state constitutionality of this was brought up, the governor then threatened to withhold salary from those issuing mask mandates.

I mean calling out people's actions is fine but in this case it's not going to get people vaccinated.

This is about masks for children, not vaccinations. Children under 12 can't be vaccinated.

Saying they either help us or get out of the way to both unvaccinated citizens (implied so far I've checked) and directly to governors is a poor way to get their attention. It's counterproductive insofar that even some of the governors were hotheads about it.

Once again, this is not about vaccinations. It's about masks. Know the difference.

I don't know of the other governors but Florida left it up to the parents. It's on the parents.

It's about the schools. So do your homework.

Do you believe a leader should see their citizens and governors as evil justified because thousands of people died because of the virus?

Anyone who knowingly puts children in harm's way and hogties those who would protect the children are evil in my eyes. Anyone who is blind to such evil is not fit to lead, imo.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let's see, which is more harmful:

• putting children at risk and hogtying those who would try to keep the children safe
• hurting the feeling of those who put the children at risk and hogtied those who would try to keep them safe

I would say those putting the children at risk are more harmful. The children are more important than their fragile snowflake feelings.

Leaders shouldn't criticize their own citizens and governors to make a point.

Let's see, if the Sargent was saying, 'Hey dummies, don't walk across that minefield!" I would say the Sargent was being a good leader!

No. Biden isn't encouraging governors to change their minds, he's insulting them and citizens for their decisions whether their as a leader or a follower.

It's like the sergeant (by his intention) calling a solider a dummy to decrease the soldier's moral. Saying you either for or against us isn't encouraging governors to (as he says) do the right thing. You want soldiers to respect your discipline not be belittled by it.

 

[SomeRandom]

In a less extreme example, it would be separate but equal when it comes to race discrimination in America. You also have other examples like in the 70s and 80s people thought homosexuals carry the AIDS disease (Gay related immune deficiency). Soon the disease's name is changed to AIDS or Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. It's sad when it comes to segregation because people feared gay people of catching the AIDs virus. There's a sad history behind it.

Whilst I do agree that we shouldn’t be “turning on each other” if you like, I also don’t know if I could even compare it to the seperate but equal thing. Because that was based on debunked science and people’s irrational fears over losing a white majority (diluting the gene pool.) Not to mention a long sordid racist history.
It was a compromise that unfortunately hurt a lot of innocent people.

This though? It’s social shaming at worst, which is commonly used and has been used on a number of things. We do this because it’s a social consequence and humans are an extremely social species. It’s often foundational to our governing laws even.
I don’t think we should shut off people as I can agree that that is largely unproductive. But to compare an innate human instinct to a government literally appeasing racist people whilst failing to protect all its citizens? Ehhh. I think it’s a little hyperbolic.

The point is the same, though. Health crisis is short term but if a leader wants everyone to work together he can't badmouth his citizens and governors in the process. While many provaxxers feel justified in hating and putting down unvaccinated (directly or indirectly-in one's head or by activism) and cheering for their punishment and potential homelessness, I believe a leader shouldn't support these things.

It is a short term thing, sure. But this pandemic and it’s impacts will be felt in the long term. Trying to mitigate this by shortening the suffering is not a bad thing, is it?
And again my own PMs through the years have said far worse about my fellow citizens. Maybe it’s time we stop coddling people?
To use a bit of hyperbole back at ya, you do not speak nicely to a member of the KKK. You can certainly try to reach out to younger members, but we do not treat them with kid gloves and for good reason. I’m not saying that’s the same thing, of course. But it’s an example of society putting its foot down and trying to limit the damage of a certain group, who are often well within their rights to their beliefs and even free speech.
Remember. Everything has a consequence.
Everything

The badmouth leads to bad actions. It's not a difference of opinion.

And not doing anything leads to people being emboldened and entitled. Society needs to grow up. And I’m not just talking about this recent vaccination issue either.
The irony of course is that the demographic that is probably hurt most by Biden’s words here, most likely come from the same demographic that’s been telling my generation to stop being snowflakes and enter the real world for years. Complaining about our trophies and how we were too coddled as kids.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you get my point though?

You don't really have a point; only an emotionally charged and inflammatory comparison between mask mandates, which are recommended by medical experts who know far more than either of us about medicine, and the atrocities committed by the Third Reich. I hope you reconsider what you said given its extreme tactlessness and overdramatization.

Despite the strong emotions this Nazi thing causes, the point is that these frustrations he has leads to division. [...]

Poorly thought out comparisons like the one you made lead to division as well. They also minimize atrocities in an attempt to make undiscerningly biased points.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't really have a point; only an emotionally charged and inflammatory comparison between mask mandates, which are recommended by medical experts who know far more than either of us about medicine, and the atrocities committed by the Third Reich. I hope you reconsider what you said given its extreme tactlessness and overdramatization.

Disagreeing with me doesn't mean I don't have a point.

This sounds emotionally charged in itself.

Poorly thought out comparisons like the one you made lead to division as well. They also minimize atrocities in an attempt to make undiscerningly biased points.

Read the other comparisons. The Nazi one came to mind in hopes people would see the context without being startled by the content.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Disagreeing with me doesn't mean I don't have a point.

This sounds emotionally charged in itself.

It's not just the disagreement; it's the thoughtlessness and the hyperbole in lieu of reason that render your argument devoid of any actual point. Comparing mask mandates to Nazi crimes is the point where any reasonable person should stop and ask themselves whether they have become too fixated on defending their position to maintain rationality and tact.

Read the other comparisons. The Nazi one came to mind in hopes people would see the context without being startled by the content.

I read them. I find them poorly thought out as well, albeit not as morally dubious. There is only so much one can say without sounding thoroughly unreasonable when the very core of their position is opposition to scientific consensus and medical advice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Dude, seriously?

It's not just the disagreement; it's the thoughtlessness and the hyperbole in lieu of reason that render your argument devoid of any actual point. Comparing mask mandates to Nazi crimes is the point where any reasonable person should stop and ask themselves whether they have become too fixated on defending their position to maintain rationality and tact.

So you're not disagreeing... you're agreeing then?

I read them. I find them poorly thought out as well, albeit not as morally dubious. There is only so much one can say without sounding thoroughly unreasonable when the very core of their position is opposition to scientific consensus and medical advice.

It isn't. The core of their opposition is forced vaccination and not given time to make well-informed decisions on their own.

When people are pushed, coerced, and so forth with propaganda (in the US) if it doesn't draw people in, it repels them. Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't. Propaganda was used in WW1 and 2 get people to fight for the cause. It's used here to get people to support health campaign drives, and so recently found out, its willingfully used in health crisis (as well as others).

While propaganda works for most people especially when its for the health of the nation, it has its drawbacks. Not everyone gets hooked.