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Baha'i and Islamic concepts of Prophets - Similar or irreconcilably different?

Are Islamic and Baha'i concepts of Prophethood reconcilable?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • No

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Mostly reconcilable

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Mostly irreconcilable

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    15

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The Old Testament mentions only one David, and that is King David. It is he, and he alone, that the Qur'an is referring to. The 'Zabur' given to him by his Lord is the Book of Psalms.

And how come neither Bahá'u'lláh nor Abdu’l-Bahá mention two Davids in their respective writings: The one given the 'Zabur' and the one who was not?
Yes, the Bab in His writings differentiated between the two Davids. Abdulbaha in another Tablet explicitly said there were two Davids.

I agree the old testament talks about king David only. But it is not like the old testament has the name of all Messengers of God.

In Bahai view, the Quran is the first place it mentions another David whose Book was Zaboor. King David book was Psalms, not zabour. But Muslim scholars read Quran, through the lens of Old Testament, and thought this Zabour must be that same Psalms. Whereas Pslams which in original language is Al-Mazameer, is completely a different name than Zaboor.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
It makes sense that God in His love for all humanity sent a Prophet to every people. It would be unjust to guide some people while leaving others bereft of guidance.
From human POV this indeed would seem unjust, although the verse explicitly mentions that some were not guided, and this is also ordained by Allah (makes sense...previous actions have consequences)
“And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], “Worship Allah and avoid Taghut.” And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed.(Quran, 16:36).
Koran 16:35(RajadKhalifa): The idol worshipers say, “Had GOD willed, we would not worship any idols besides Him, nor would our parents. Nor would we prohibit anything besides His prohibitions.”Those before them have done the same. Can the messengers do anything but deliver the complete message?
Verse before is also interesting:
Sai Baba always warned us that 'love for God' does not come easy; better start early 'practising it'. Humans have free choice. So it's a lame excuse to blame God
It of course raises the important question as to whether or not Buddha, Krishna and the like should be considered Prophets.
I'm not sure if it is important to know (if He is a Prophets or not), and I think only God can know for sure. But knowing makes it easier to trust their writings

For sure Krishna is not, because He is a Poorna Avatar. That is much more than a Prophet, that is God incarnated Himself, equipped with those Divine attributes no other human being can ever acquire; omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence and Divine Love (not 'love for the Divine')

This is a matter early Islamic scholars devoted considerable attention as Islam rapidly expanded and significant contact with Buddhism and Hinduism was experienced. The question was whether or not such religions should be considered Dhimmi as were Judaism and Christianity.
Hahaha, yes, I can imagine they were having trouble with that. Their Prophet gone and now they had to decide for themselves, something they could not find in their Koran. I think they made the correct decision to treat them the same (at least that is what Google gave me)

Koran 16:36(RajadKhalifa): We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, “You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry.” Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.
 
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Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Yes, the Bab in His writings differentiated between the two Davids. Abdulbaha in another Tablet explicitly said there were two Davids.

I agree the old testament talks about king David only.
In Bahai view, the Quran is the first place it mentions another David whose Book was Zaboor. King David book was Psalms, not zabour. But Muslim scholars read Quran, through the lens of Old Testament, and though this Zabour must be that same Psalms. Whereas Pslams which in original language is Al-Mazameer, is completely a different name than Zaboor.

Muslim scholars know perfectly well that the Bible and Qur'an know only one David, and this is King David. It was he - and he alone - who was given Scripture (Al-Zabur). If certain folk wish to think otherwise, that is for them.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Muslim scholars know perfectly well that the Bible and Qur'an know only one David, and this is King David. It was he - and he alone - who was given Scripture (Al-Zabur). If certain folk wish to think otherwise, that is for them.
If you want to trust Muslim Scholars as perfect and infallible people, go ahead.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
If you want to trust Muslim Scholars as perfect and infallible people, go ahead.

That the Bible and Qur'an know only one David is clear to see.

I don't consider any scholar - Muslim or otherwise- to be 'perfect' or 'infallible'.

I do, however, trust Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Thank you for your time.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That the Bible and Qur'an know only one David is clear to see.

I don't consider any scholar - Muslim or otherwise- to be 'perfect' or 'infallible'.

I do, however, trust Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Thank you for your time.
Then, you have a conflict to solve. Why the Bible does not call David Book Zaboor, but the Quran calls David Book Al-zaboor?
Why the Quran does not use the word Mazaameer when it wants to refer to Book of David? But when Quran talks about Book of Jesus, or Moses, it uses the name, Injil and Torah, the same known names.

If you think, Quran just means to say Scriptures, as generally meaning of the word Zaboor, why this is only done about David, not about Moses or Jesus Books?

Mind you, the Arabs, always called David book, Mazaameer, and in Hadithes the Prophet also used the name Mazaameer.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Manifestations are prophets, but not all prophets are manifestations of God. The Baha'i view is there are nine major Manifestation of God in the Progressive Revelation, and ages in the Adamic cycle. There are minor prophets within each age of the history of humanity The Adamic cycle is not the only cycle of progressive Revelation in the history of humanity.
That means that your earlier post was not wholly correct.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Islam and the Baha'i Faith are two independent religions. Islam emerged from the Arabian Peninsula during the seventh century and was founded by Muhammad.

But then, the Quran says that Islam existed since at least Abraham. So you have to confirm if Bahai's believe in the Quran or not.

The Quran refers to Prophets and Messengers throughout multiple passages. According to wikipedia:

How do you differentiate between prophets and messengers? What is a rasool and what is a nabi? This definition and differentiation will be fundamental for your discussion.

In His Will and Testament Baha'u'llah appointed His eldest Son, 'Abdu'l-Baha as successor and His elaborations on His Father's works are considered authoritative.

Thus, is Abdul Baha a Rasool or Nabi? Or is he something else? To be authoritative, he has to be speaking to God or speaking directly to Gods messenger IMHO. But was he eternally speaking to Bahaullah, even after he passed away? If he was still authoritative after he passed, how was he authoritative? He made many claims that was not existing during Bahaullahs time as I understand. Please clarify.

Of course there is much that could be said about the concept of Prophethood in the Baha'i Faith. Like Islam, it is a huge topic. However my question is a simple one. Is the concept of Prophethood in the Baha'i Faith compatible with that in Islam? Are the concepts of Prophethood within the two religions so fundamentally different as to irreconcilable?

To do this, I believe you must clarify the above questions. Because the use of words like prophethood without these clarifications are too superficial.

One thing I can say is that there is no concept of "manifestation of God" in the Quran. None. Thus, if you believe that being a prophet or a messenger or what ever is a manifestation of God, it is not found in the Quran. This is fact. A rasool is someone who "transmits". Thats it.

Bab claims to be divine. He wrote his "Kayoom ul asma" which is the Bahai proof that the Bab is divine, and Gods manifestation capable enough to meet the challenge of writing a book similar to the Qur'an. He begins with "Man asaara hadharathalalli al barika" showing his reverence to the Shii theology, not the Bahai theology. Nevertheless, the point is that the Quranic injunction is that "La ilaaha illalah". Nothing is divine, other than God. Thus, you have to decide if the Bab, and of course Bahaullah had any divinity, or they were all human. Because, the Quran states very clearly, that "La ilaaha illa huwa". There is no divinity whatsoever. This is the whole concept of the Quran. So this kind of prophet or messenger (will see after you define them) in the Bahai faith are absolutely irreconcilable to the Rasool and Nabi in the Quran.

The Quran speaks of "those who have taken their children as divine". Well, not even your children should be divine in your mind. Not even your wealth. Not even your own havah. "LA ILAAH". No deity. No divinity. Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The Bible and Qur'an know only one David, and that is King David. It is he, and he alone, that the Qur'an is referring to. The 'Zabur' given to him by his Lord is the Book of Psalms.

And how come neither Bahá'u'lláh nor Abdu’l-Bahá mention two Davids in their respective writings: The one given the 'Zabur' and the one who was not?

The Bahais believe there were two different Davids. If my memory is not failing me it was Abdul Baha who said so. If I do recall more information I will share.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In Bahai view there were two David. One David who revealed Zabour, and He was before Moses

The Bible and Qur'an know only one David, and that is King David.

Yes, the Bab in His writings differentiated between the two Davids. Abdulbaha in another Tablet explicitly said there were two Davids.

I agree the old testament talks about king David only. But it is not like the old testament has the name of all Messengers of God.
So I suppose you have the quotes from The Bab and Abdul Baha'? And, are you saying this other David was a messenger as in being a manifestation? Even if just a lessor type of prophet... the Bible missed him? Then where did The Bab and Abdul Baha' find him?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
So I suppose you have the quotes from The Bab and Abdul Baha'? And, are you saying this other David was a messenger as in being a manifestation? Even if just a lessor type of prophet... the Bible missed him? Then where did The Bab and Abdul Baha' find him?
Yes, I have read the quotes myself.

The Bible does not have the stories and names of every single Messenger of God.
It was not meant to have all Messengers described and it is not its purpose.

The Bahai belief is, the Quran and Bahai scriptures are revelations from God, so, this is how Abdulbaha or the Bab knew there were two different Davids. The first David was a Messenger.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Islam and the Baha'i Faith are two independent religions. Islam emerged from the Arabian Peninsula during the seventh century and was founded by Muhammad. Both Muslims and Baha'is believe Muhammad to be a Messenger of God and the Quran to be the authenticated Word of God. The Quran refers to Prophets and Messengers throughout multiple passages. According to wikipedia:

Prophets in Islam are individuals to serve as examples of ideal human behavior and to spread God's message on Earth. Some prophets are categorized as messengers, those who transmit divine revelation, most of them through the interaction of an angel. Muslims believe that many prophets existed, including many not mentioned in the Quran. The Quran states: "There is a Messenger for every community". Belief in the Islamic prophets is one of the six articles of the Islamic faith.

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

There is much that could be said about the nature of Prophethood in Islam. It is a huge topic.

During the nineteenth century within Shi'a Islamic Persia (now Iran) the Baha'i Faith emerged. During a time of Messianic expectation in regards a redeemer of Islam known as the Mahdi, hundreds of thousands accepted the Bab as being this redeemer and followed His Cause. The conservative and fanatical government and clergy regarded this new movement with disdain and eventually thousands of the early Babis were put to death including the Bab Himself.

The Central Purpose of the Bab's message was to prepare His followers for One whose cause was even greater than His own. That Promised One was widely recognized as being Baha'u'llah by the vast majority of the Babis who became Baha'is. Baha'u'llah elaborated on the concept of Prophethood in one of His early and most important works, the Kitab-i-Iqan. There are many other works through Baha'u'llah's forty year mission between receiving His summons to His Divine Mission while imprisoned in the Siyah Chal, in Tehran 1852 (The Message Baha’u’llah Received in the Black Pit) until His passing in a mansion in Bahji 1892. In His Will and Testament Baha'u'llah appointed His eldest Son, 'Abdu'l-Baha as successor and His elaborations on His Father's works are considered authoritative.

'Abdu'l-Baha elaborates on the concept of Prophets and Messengers of God as follows:

"The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being."

"God sent all His Prophets into the world with one aim, to sow in the hearts of men love and goodwill, and for this great purpose, they were willing to suffer and to die. All the sacred Books were written to lead and direct man into the ways of love and unity; and yet, in spite of all this, we have the sad spectacle of war and bloodshed in our midst."


Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

Of course there is much that could be said about the concept of Prophethood in the Baha'i Faith. Like Islam, it is a huge topic. However my question is a simple one. Is the concept of Prophethood in the Baha'i Faith compatible with that in Islam? Are the concepts of Prophethood within the two religions so fundamentally different as to irreconcilable?

Thanks for dropping by.
I think it boils down to how the station and how a Messenger of God knows words of God.

The Muslims generally believe a Messenger like Muhammad recieved words of God through Gabriel, an angel who literally was a physical being, and appeard in front of Muhammad, and told Him the words of God, specifically the verses of the Quran.
The Bahai view is, such an angel did not physically exist as a separate identity from Muhammad. It was the Spirit of Muhammad, He was referring to. Muhammad spoke symbolically about such an angel, because people of His time could accept such a thing. They could easily understand the concept of an external angel. But the Bahai faith teaches, Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, meaning God spoke through Him, just how the Sun image appears in a Mirror.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I would say they're not the same as Baha'i's view their prophets as basically on the level of demigods and that's not allowed in Islam. There are no "manifestations of God" in Islam.
No, that is not how Baha'is view Prophets. For one thing, we believe that there are two kinds of Prophets, the independent Prophets who established a new religion (also called Messengers and Manifestations of God), and the followers and promoters of those Prophets: 43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS

“The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165

Bahais believe that the independent Prophets (who were also Manifestations of God and Messengers of God) had a twofold nature:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think it boils down to how the station and how a Messenger of God knows words of God.

The Muslims generally believe a Messenger like Muhammad recieved words of God through Gabriel, an angel who literally was a physical being, and appeard in front of Muhammad, and told Him the words of God, specifically the verses of the Quran.
The Bahai view is, such an angel did not physically exist as a separate identity from Muhammad. It was the Spirit of Muhammad, He was referring to. Muhammad spoke symbolically about such an angel, because people of His time could accept such a thing. They could easily understand the concept of an external angel. But the Bahai faith teaches, Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, meaning God spoke through Him, just how the Sun image appears in a Mirror.
The way I have always understood this is that God spoke to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel which was the Voice of the Holy Spirit, just as God spoke to Moses through the Burning Bush and just as God spoke to Baha'u'llah through the Maid of Heaven.
Is this a correct understanding?

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So I suppose you have the quotes from The Bab and Abdul Baha'? And, are you saying this other David was a messenger as in being a manifestation? Even if just a lessor type of prophet... the Bible missed him? Then where did The Bab and Abdul Baha' find him?
I would also like to know the answer to these questions but I am not as proficient in the Baha'i Writings as
@ adrian009 and @ InvestigateTruth .

All I can say is that Baha'u'llah considered David a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God, according to the Kitab-i-Iqan.

“None of the many Prophets sent down, since Moses was made manifest, as Messengers of the Word of God, such as David, Jesus, and others among the more exalted Manifestations who have appeared during the intervening period between the Revelations of Moses and Muḥammad, ever altered the law of the Qiblih. These Messengers of the Lord of creation have, one and all, directed their peoples to turn unto the same direction. In the eyes of God, the ideal King, all the places of the earth are one and the same, excepting that place which, in the days of His Manifestations, He doth appoint for a particular purpose.“ The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 51

But that kind of messes up the belief that there were the only nine Manifestations of God:
Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

So someone is wrong, and I do not think it was Baha'u'llah, I think it is the Baha'is, also because Baha'u'llah wrote that Noah was a Prophet who arose to proclaim His Cause, which would make Him the kind of Prophet who was also a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God.

“For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, inasmuch as previous to his belief in God and his acceptance of His Manifestation, he had set his affections on the things of the world, such as attachment to earthly goods, to wife, children, food, drink, and the like, so much so that in the day-time and in the night season his one concern had been to amass riches and procure for himself the means of enjoyment and pleasure.” 28The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 154-155
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bahá'u'lláh writes: ‘None of the many Prophets sent down, since Moses was made manifest, as Messengers of the Word of God; such as David, Jesus, and others among the more exalted Manifestations who have appeared during the intervening period between the Revelations of Moses and Muhammad……….’ (Kitáb-i-Íqán; Article 55).

Abdu’l-Bahá, on the other hand, contradicts both Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) and Bahá'u'lláh when he states that:

‘The Manifestations of universal Prophethood who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel…………(of) themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets. (Some Answered Questions, p. 164-165).

Baha’is have to decide who to believe: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) or Abdu’l-Bahá!
Thanks for pointing that out, I never noticed it before. I do not believe that Baha'u'llah is wrong about David being a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God, so that means that Some Answered Questions is incorrect, unless Abdu'l-Baha was referring to another David.
 
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