Baha'i and Messengers

[loverofhumanity]

And do what? Believe what the NT says about him or what the Baha'i writings say about him?

I'm not saying what the gospels and epistles, especially Paul, is correct, but it does make Jesus the only one that can cleanse people of their sin and save them. If that's not true, then the NT is not true.

And I can believe that. Afterall, it what his followers said and wrote. Why would that be necessarily true. So, is it a "sure spiritual guide" or not "wholly" authentic? And all we can know is true is what Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders have quoted? And I think that is exactly what Baha'is believe, so it doesn't matter what Christians think is true, because what, supposedly, is true... is what the Baha'i Faith says is true. Jesus being God? Rising from the dead? Jesus being the only way? Any of that is all made to be true only in a symbolic way. No matter what any religions says, whatever they think their Scriptures say and mean doesn't matter. They are wrong if it contradicts Baha'i beliefs.

So, "face" beaming becomes meaningless. Anybody looking to Jesus with any other interpretation, other than the Baha'i interpretation, isn't looking at the true Jesus. But a false Jesus that their religion made up from mistaken interpretations.

Christ must return sometime. When He returns He will have every right as Christ returned to judge, give new laws, abolish old ones and rebuke Christians for not accepting Him returned as He told them in their scriptures.

The thing is Christ returned has full authority over Christians. It says in Revelation He will have a new name.

If He has returned then it is the duty of every Christian to accept Him. Baha’u’llah says that He is the Promised One. So it is up to Christians to seriously investigate His claim lest they reject the Christ they claim to love and believe in.

The thing is, when Christ returns He will have full authority of Christendom and will have the right to judge all Christians. Christ made a promise that He would return. We’ve been telling Christian’s for over a 100 years that He has come but they say not yet. Then when?

In another 500 years they will still be saying not yet just like the Jews have maintained that their messiah hasn’t come in the last 2,000 years.

Matthew 24:44

You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

And do what? Believe what the NT says about him or what the Baha'i writings say about him?

I'm not saying what the gospels and epistles, especially Paul, is correct, but it does make Jesus the only one that can cleanse people of their sin and save them. If that's not true, then the NT is not true.

WWEEEELLLLLL, there ARE two separate scriptures in the Bible, in which God Himself is declaring that HE ALONE is the ONLY GOD anyone shall need, as well as the ONLY SAVIOR, anyone shall need.

So much for Jesus being the ONLY one that can do that......Ehhh?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Christ must return sometime

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Not necessarily, however that IS the prevailing thought amongst most Christians.

If He has returned then it is the duty of every Christian to accept Him. Baha’u’llah says that He is the Promised One. So it is up to Christians to seriously investigate His claim lest they reject the Christ they claim to love and believe in.

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Baha’u’llah has been known for making scads of unfounded claims.....few if any are actually proven to have come to fruition. He seems to me to be nothing more than an "opportunist", taking advantage whenever possible.

The thing is, when Christ returns He will have full authority of Christendom and will have the right to judge all Christians.

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La ti dah.......seems to me that the ONLY time this is to happen is AFTER the Book of Life is opened, and those who's names are not found within, are tossed in some nearby lava flow, referred to as the "lake of fire".

Christ made a promise that He would return.

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I've heard this claimed many times...but when asked WHERE in the bible Jesus actually SAID that, all I get is silence and dirty looks. He made a few very vague references to his coming back, but nothing definitive to that effect.

We’ve been telling Christian’s for over a 100 years that He has come but they say not yet. Then when?

Longer than THAT actually, but still with the same end result....."not yet".

In another 500 years they will still be saying not yet just like the Jews have maintained that their messiah hasn’t come in the last 2,000 years.

Yep!~

Matthew 24:44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected

Excellent Christian strategy.....keep 'em guessing......don't tell 'em when.

 

[Sheldon]

The challenge I see is if one is willing to consider if there is an intelligent spirit behind existence, they may need more than material senses to understand and see.

Sorry, but that seems like circular reasoning again, and also (the last part) a no true Scotsman fallacy. I am disinclined to believe or accept ideas that are demonstrably irrational.

 

[Trailblazer]

What you offer as evidence has been rejected by every secular humanist participating who has expressed an opinion on the matter. That's not a coincidence, and it is not without meaning for anyone able to evaluate what that is evidence of.

What's good enough for you is good enough for none of them. That's evidence of something. To me, anyway.

That's also evidence of something to me.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

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Not necessarily, however that IS the prevailing thought amongst most Christians.

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Baha’u’llah has been known for making scads of unfounded claims.....few if any are actually proven to have come to fruition. He seems to me to be nothing more than an "opportunist", taking advantage whenever possible.

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La ti dah.......seems to me that the ONLY time this is to happen is AFTER the Book of Life is opened, and those who's names are not found within, are tossed in some nearby lava flow, referred to as the "lake of fire".

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I've heard this claimed many times...but when asked WHERE in the bible Jesus actually SAID that, all I get is silence and dirty looks. He made a few very vague references to his coming back, but nothing definitive to that effect.


Longer than THAT actually, but still with the same end result....."not yet".


Yep!~


Excellent Christian strategy.....keep 'em guessing......don't tell 'em when.

You are entitled to your own opinion. I’m not going to argue with you. If you believe what you wrote is true then good luck to you and I wish you well.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha’u’llah has been known for making scads of unfounded claims.....few if any are actually proven to have come to fruition. He seems to me to be nothing more than an "opportunist", taking advantage whenever possible.

Can you name some of those unfounded claims?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Can you name some of those unfounded claims?

I've been down this rabbit hole with you before.....and have seen others present many such instances to you, only to have you come up with some off the wall explanation to debunk the claim.
I might play cat and mouse with you some other day, but not TOday.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

You are entitled to your own opinion. I’m not going to argue with you. If you believe what you wrote is true then good luck to you and I wish you well.

Oh of COURSE not. I come to expect this sort of response from many Bahai. However it IS what I believe. I wish you well, also

 

[Trailblazer]

I've been down this rabbit hole with you before.....and have seen others present many such instances to you, only to have you come up with some off the wall explanation to debunk the claim.

I might play cat and mouse with you some other day, but not TOday. [/QUOTE]
Okay, but I don't think it is fair to claim that He made unfounded claims unless you have some evidence and that is why I asked.
I am not much for rabbit holes today either...

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus said He would return in the role of the Father. Baha’u’llah is not God but Christ returned as the Father.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he will give to every man the reward of his works.

Sure, in a Baha'i interpretation. In a Christian interpretation it is Jesus, not Baha'u'llah, that is coming. Not as God, the Father, but as himself.

The key here is that Jesus as Christ is also the 'Glory of God', the "Father".

Again, in a Baha'i interpretation. In a Christian interpretation the "Christ" or Messiah hasn't even come yet. He is not the Glory of God or the Father. With Baha'is, and their "symbolic" interpretations anything can be made to be or mean anything. Which kind of makes it nothing.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I might play cat and mouse with you some other day, but not TOday.

Okay, but I don't think it is fair to claim that He made unfounded claims unless you have some evidence and that is why I asked.
I am not much for rabbit holes today either... [/QUOTE]

Ok, how about just THIS one, where Bahaullah CLAIMED he was Jesus, and has returned as being the one with the "other name" as mentioned in the NT
Jesus in my estimation AIN'T COMING BACK....but your fella, being the opportunist that I say he is, jumped on the opportunity and stepped right in.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! T

Is there some Bible quotes that support that "The Father" comes? And what was "promised" that is "fulfilled"? Again, if Baha'is are going to make them symbolic, then sure, Baha'u'llah, Jesus, anybody is "symbolically" the father. And all the promises have been fulfilled "symbolically". But what are the actual promises made in the prophecies? And where does the Father mean Baha'u'llah and Jesus and not God?

 

[CG Didymus]

So all God's Messengers are a Messiah, a Christ, they are all sent as liberators of the people.

There's lot of "anointed ones" in Judaism. But there is also "The Messiah". Who do Jews say that is?

I say welcome to this 'Day of God' where God will wipe away our tears and we will learn war no more.

And again, will the Messiah come and go and not establish peace? Because bringing and establishing peace hasn't been fulfilled yet. Lots of people are still crying. Or, as usually, that is figurative? Which means you can say anything you want, even though it hasn't happened yet.

 

[F1fan]

It has been offered,

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."

So the Messengers offer their own Person, their own life and the Message they speak.

What other evidence would we need?

Well, how do we discern a false Messenger from an authentic Messenger. Anyone can claim to be a Messenger and fit the description you offer. So you could be duped if you have no operating standard and method to test whether a Messenger is authentic. Can you submit your standard and method?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh of COURSE not. I come to expect this sort of response from many Bahai. However it IS what I believe. I wish you well, also

Im most happy for you to share your views and I’m always ready and willing to have a friendly conversation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, how about just THIS one, where Bahaullah CLAIMED he was Jesus, and has returned as being the one with the "other name" as mentioned in the NT
Jesus in my estimation AIN'T COMING BACK....but your fella, being the opportunist that I say he is, jumped on the opportunity and stepped right in.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus, He claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit, that which was promised all throughout the New Testament.

Baha'u'llah also claimed to be the Promised One of all the other religions and the Messiah that was prophesied in the Old Testament. What Baha'u'llah claimed was a bold claim, but He backed up His claims with evidence.

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "world-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a great teacher from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great religion restoring, world uniting, peace bringing Messiah.””

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

When you say that Baha'u'llah was an opportunist who jumped on the opportunity and stepped right in you are saying that Baha'u'llah was a false prophet. You are free to BELIEVE that but it is an uninformed belief unless you have looked at all the evidence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sure, in a Baha'i interpretation. In a Christian interpretation it is Jesus, not Baha'u'llah, that is coming. Not as God, the Father, but as himself.

Again, in a Baha'i interpretation. In a Christian interpretation the "Christ" or Messiah hasn't even come yet. He is not the Glory of God or the Father. With Baha'is, and their "symbolic" interpretations anything can be made to be or mean anything. Which kind of makes it nothing.

Who is coming then? Certainly not a Person by the name of Christ!

Mark 13:21

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

So when Christ returns and people say here or there is Christ the Bible says not to believe them. The Baha’is are not saying here is Christ or there is Christ.

Then if Christ will not be called Christ when He returns what will be His Name?

It’s not a Baha’i interpretation. Mark 13:21 explicitly states not to believe those saying ‘here is Christ because He will have a new name according to Revelation.

This is what the Bible says not any interpretation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, how do we discern a false Messenger from an authentic Messenger. Anyone can claim to be a Messenger and fit the description you offer. So you could be duped if you have no operating standard and method to test whether a Messenger is authentic. Can you submit your standard and method?

The Bible has given us the key.

Matthew 7

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Regards Tony

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus, He claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit, that which was promised all throughout the New Testament...

That's your explanation, is it? That Baha'u'llah didn't claim to BE Jesus, but was just his SPIRIT.....wow!~

Baha'u'llah also claimed to be the Promised One of all the other religions and the Messiah that was prophesied in the Old Testament. What Baha'u'llah claimed was a bold claim, but He backed up His claims with evidence...

The "promised one".....you mean the Comforter......sometimes referred to as the Holy Spirit. Are you now claiming that your Baha'u'llah is the HOLY SPIRIT, as well as being the SPIRIT of Jesus. Damn but he sure does get around, don't he?

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies..

Yes, they most certainly do. The thing that I happen to be noticing is many of the prophecies listed ARE being fulfilled BY Baha'u'llah, even though HE was not the object OF the prophecy. He WAS an opportunist I tell ya!~

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great religion restoring, world uniting, peace bringing Messiah.””.

I dunno about EACH religion, but at least the 3 Abrahamic religions share that same desire/belief. Therefore it is no great mystery that your Baha'u'llah would come up with the same idea.....and make it a Bahai desire.

When you say that Baha'u'llah was an opportunist who jumped on the opportunity and stepped right in you are saying that Baha'u'llah was a false prophet. You are free to BELIEVE that but it is an uninformed belief unless you have looked at all the evidence.

I HAVE been looking at the evidence, and that IS the impression I am getting so far.