Baha'i and Messengers

[TransmutingSoul]

Well not to SOUND disrespectful, but that sure IS a "simple answer". Believe the fellows' claim that God had specifically chosen HIM to deliver a message.

Simple, but the greatest test we can face in this life.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

Well not to SOUND disrespectful, but that sure IS a "simple answer". Believe the fellows' claim that God had specifically chosen HIM to deliver a message.
Isn't that where all this debate nonsense started with claims such as that?....along with the lack of empirical evidence to support it?
I myself am a believer and user of Occams Razor, where the simplest answer usually IS the most likely answer.....thing is I do not feel they were using the word simple in the same context as I am here.

The simplest answer is that the guy was wrong.

And Occam's razor is more along the lines of, Don't multiply entities.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not more Baha'u'llah crap again. I had it up to "here" what with all the things this character is said to have done, ALL without a shred of REAL evidence to support it, other than he was a nice guy (that everybody wanted dead), and he really really was convinced that he was doing God's work.
Anyway, yeah you said it was the SPIRIT of Jesus (Christ was not his name, it was a title)...which of course brings us BACK to base one again, where Baha'u'llah is just sitting and waiting for someone to pick him up and run with it for awhile.
As usual, no real answers, just talk. Lots and lots of talk. I hear my cat meowing, so I gotta go a feed him...he does NOT like being made to wait, heh heh heh.

where Baha'u'llah is just sitting and waiting for someone to pick him up and run with it for awhile?
Cats come before religion, always. Gotta run, I hear my cat crying.

 

[Trailblazer]

The simplest answer is that the guy was wrong.

or that He was right.

 

[ppp]

or that He was right.

I'm afraid not. That would be a much. much more complex answer.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The simplest answer is that the guy was wrong.

And Occam's razor is more along the lines of, Don't multiply entities.

Baha'u'llah challenges all that comment on his person, or the Message he gave, was to first determine if he was a man that spoke the truth, or he was not. He offered if we were to enquire into the town where he lived, that it would confirm that he was indeed a man that spoke naught but truth.

So what we have from many to date is a whole lot of assumptions and allegations about Baha'u'llah, that have not been supported in any way but to say I think that may be the case.

Wheras, from the Bahai perspective we can produce the quality of his character, the amazing circumstances of the revelation he gave, sound reasoning that prophecy points to the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and then the Message that is indeed the standard that a global civilization can arise to.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm afraid not. That would be a much. much more complex answer.

but what if it is the right answer?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm surprised because according to other Baha'i posting they have to use all revelations from Messengers, and that god sends new messengers all the time to update revelation. A lot has changed since the originator and the 20th century is a good time for a new one. The Urantia book was even written by a guy who claimed to be a Messenger. It's a perfect fit. And it is a huge book, over 2000 pages. Lots of detail. I'm just stunned you guys aren't referring to it.


Humanism.


OK, either something traumatic happened, or you were not a staunch atheist, or you found facts that prove God exists.

Staunch atheists don't find religious texts and claims compelling. Could it be you were just not a theist but felt some emptiness in life, and something in what you read made you feel euphoric and connected?


There are a lot of good people in the world, but just enough bad people that ruin life for many. I suspect the planet is heading for some sort of global conflict, perhaps in Ukraine. If not that, then many collapsed societies as authoritarian governments take over. The USA could be one of these failed democracies. The USA is on the bubble. It has historically been a stabilizing force in the world, and now that is waning with its declining democracy.

Well that’s the truth. My biggest hurdle in believing in any religion was that followers believed in this invisible God. So although I liked the Baha’is I opposed the Baha’i Faith for about 3 years. I never read any of their literature because I believed my reason and logic were perfectly accurate in disbelieving in a God. I felt sorry for the Baha’is that they believed in this mythical, superstitious God.

Reading the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah however fully convinced me that God does without a doubt exists.

As to the book of Urantia, if it does not recognise Baha’u’llah then it is not at all up to date.

 

[ppp]

but what if it is the right answer?

It is still more complex.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is still more complex.

Yes, and so?
Atheism is sure a lot simpler than being a Baha'i and a lot easier, but Is the easy way always the best way?

 

[ppp]

Atheism is sure a lot simpler than being a Baha'i and a lot easier

Says who?

 

[Trailblazer]

Says who?

Says me! I have been a Baha'i for 51 years so I should know.
What is difficult about being an atheist?

 

[Truthseeker]

I realize you being a Bahai are opposed to arguing and debating your religion.......try not to see my question as being like that.
I am just curious, in you own mind, how exactly would someone like Jesus OR Baha'u'llah manage to "deliver someone FROM themselves"?

Deliver them from their lower animal selves and raise them to their higher spiritual selves.

 

[ppp]

Says me! I have been a Baha'i for 51 years so I should know.
What is difficult about being an atheist?

Are you under the impression that you just get to make whatever ill considered, b******* statement that falls out of your brain and then demand that I prove you wrong? Prove yourself right. I'll judge.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'i can take credit for being for world peace and unity. But why do it, if it's only to make your religion look good? Especially if we look hard enough and we find that plans for world peace pre-dated Baha'u'llah.

Why do it? Really?

The "why" do it is why make peace and unity so dependent on the Baha'i Faith. As if, unless people submit to Baha'i teachings there won't be lasting peace. And that may be so, but the lesser peace doesn't need to be about the Baha'i Faith. It just needs all people to accept each other without killing each other. But Baha'is aren't even focused on bringing peace and unity between people. They are more interested in trying to get people to believe in God and Baha'u'llah. Which has the opposite effect. Instead of bringing people together, it's causing one more division. One more group of "us" and "them". There are those that see the light, the Baha'is, and those of us that are in the dark and refuse to see the light. So again, what is the goal? To make converts or to bring people, all people together in peace and unity?

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure. That is not dissimilar to the many of the Christian attempts at theodicy. I am not sure how you think that negates my point. Or, wait, do you think that negates my point?

I wanted to get some quotes as to what Baha'is believe. And Renki is right. To Baha'is the solution to evil is simple. Turn the light on and darkness is gone.

But I do have a question about the source of evil. If God knows all and created all, then evil was part of the plan. I guess that is pretty simple too.

As to the Problem of Evil, I find it a very simple problem with an even simpler set of solutions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you under the impression that you just get to make whatever ill considered, b******* statement that falls out of your brain and then demand that I prove you wrong? Prove yourself right. I'll judge.

Sorry, I should have said "Imo atheism is sure a lot simpler than being a Baha'i and a lot easier."
I cannot prove that because it is just a personal opinion based upon my experience, but since I have never been an atheist during my adult life I cannot know what it is like to be one, so I just imagine it would be easier to be an atheist since it is so difficult being a believer.

Now tell me what is difficult about being an atheist.

 

[Sundance]

I wanted to get some quotes as to what Baha'is believe. And Renki is right. To Baha'is the solution to evil is simple. Turn the light on and darkness is gone.

But I do have a question about the source of evil. If God knows all and created all, then evil was part of the plan. I guess that is pretty simple too.

Mmmm…it doesn’t follow logically, CG. If God created human beings with the capacity to know right from wrong, and He tells them – time and time again – “do what’s right, avoid what’s wrong”, I’m not too sure how a person can make this equation stick

[benevolent God + conscience + moral law + punishes evildoing + human free will - human action = God is responsible for evil].

If you you and Policy can logically do so, more power to y’all.

 

[ppp]

I wanted to get some quotes as to what Baha'is believe. And Renki is right. To Baha'is the solution to evil is simple. Turn the light on and darkness is gone

I don't agree. The Baha'i answer pretends that moral accountability is only attached to the most proximate agent. That is most definitely false.

 

[ppp]

Sorry, I should have said "Imo atheism is sure a lot simpler than being a Baha'i and a lot easier."
I cannot prove that because it is just a personal opinion based upon my experience, but since I have never been an atheist during my adult life I cannot know what it is like to be one, so I just imagine it would be easier to be an atheist since it is so difficult being a believer.

Now tell me what is difficult about being an atheist.

Nothing is handed to you. You have to figure out everything for yourself. Morality . Epistemology. Logical foundations. Atheist children , like gay children, and get tossed out of their homes by fundamentalist parents. You are assumed to be immoral, even though you've given more thought to morality than most religious people. You're assumed to be sad and need to be fixed. You're assumed to be wanton and need to be feared. You're assuming to be a stalinist and need to be feared. The president says that you can't be an American. Being open about who you are can be dangerous to your health. It can lose your jobs. You can lose your friends and your family. It makes theists violent. Theist treat your existence as a personal affront. With a few exceptions, theistic prejudice bars you from getting elected into office. You are far less likely to be granted that custody of your children in a divorce where the other parent is a theist. You are far less likely to be approved for adoption.

I think that's enough to be starting on with.