Baha'i and Science

[Dawnofhope]

In regards what the Baha'i faith teaches about Krishna and Hinduism we have very little to go on. There are a references to Krishna and Hinduism in our writings or from the talks of Abdu'l-Baha. For example:

Blessed souls whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, or Muhammad were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?"
('Abdu'l-Bahá from a Tablet - translated from the Persian)

The Message of Krishna is the message of love. All God's prophets have brought the message of love....
("Paris Talks: Addresses given by `Abdu'l-Bahá in Paris in 1911-1912", 11th ed. (London: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1979), p. 35)

In regards Hinduism Shoghi Effendi has said:

...Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islám and the religion of the Sabaeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world, but are the only ones which are still existing. There have always been divine prophets and messengers, to many of whom the Qur'án refers. But the only ones existing are those mentioned above.

In regards the authenticity of the sacred writings including the Bhaghavad Gita we don't have too much to say either. In response to questions of a more detailed nature Shoghi Effendi said it would be a matter for scholars to investigate further.

Your question concerning Brahma and Krishna: such matters, as no reference occurs to them in the Teachings, are left for students of history and religion to resolve and clarify.
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 14 April 1941)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna, so we certainly cannot draw any conclusions about virgin birth mentioned in them. There is no reference to this subject in our teachings, so the Guardian cannot pronounce an opinion.

Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects

The Baha'i writings indicate Hinduism is a true religion with Divine origins. Otherwise its a matter for scholars and students of religion.

 

[wandering peacefully]

How can we unite with people who hate us and the religion we love? Just look at what people have said on this thread alone, and this is just one thread. It is open season on Baha’is everywhere on RF, and once hunting season is over on one thread they pack up their bags and move to another thread.

Honestly, I don't believe for one minute people "hate Baha'i" and certainly not its followers. I really feel it is more of sense of wanting to understand why the adherents can read the same writings as others can but seem to claim they say something different than what outsiders are reading. And it seems curious that it is only the followers collectively who who see the words differently than the rest. I really think it is more the presentation than what is being said which draws criticism. I don't think the average poster is really concerned about an actual Bahai theocracy because it just isn't going to happen. Most people probably didn't know anything about the belief system before hearing about it on these forums. At least I hadn't. So I don't think you need be upset about trying to defend your beliefs or feel it is going to do any harm if other people of other faiths or none point our their take on the information that is being presented by the followers. In fact, I will go out on a limb and say it is the manner in which the information is presented which draws the criticisms. Many times it may come across as denial of facts with a certain air of superiority as if the only truth in the universe is the Baha'I truth which is quite insulting to other people who believe their truth is the right one. Especially when they are always misrepresented even after the Bahai are corrected over and over about what their own faiths teaches them. It seems almost robotic the same answers which are given to other faiths who try to correct Baha'I misrepresentations and misinterpretations. It is as if the Bahai have a script and they are going to 'stick to it' at all costs instead of listening to other's views or corrections even if it means alienating the very people they are hoping to attract.

Anyways, way off topic and it's only my personal observations so I'll leave the Bahai to your thread now. I just wanted you to know none hates Bahai or the followers. They just don't agree with the presentation of the messages I'm guessing.

 

[Vinayaka]

Independent investigation is about being freed from all preconceived ideas, prejudices and biases. There is nothing in the Baha'i writings that even remotely suggests Baha'is should use only 'Baha'i' sources.

I only made that comment, because in that long early thread, whenever I asked for sources, the only ones I ever got were to Baha'i pages or sources. Of course it's difficult, as there are very few non-Baha'i sources about the Baha'i. Whenever I quoted from such a source, I was merely told that it was an ant-Baha'i ( read covenant breaker) website, and not to be even considered. So yes there is a lot of confirmation bias. Perhaps on both sides now.

Believe me, before I came here, I was indeed free from all preconceived ideas, as I knew nothing at all. I think most folks who do investigate these days learn fairly quickly a lot of 'interesting' stuff, so it's not a big deal any more. Thanks to the internet. There is a lot of testimony from ex-Baha'is about how, in the early days, controversial information was held back. I expect that to be denied here.

 

[Vinayaka]

Honestly, I don't believe for one minute people "hate Baha'i" and certainly not its followers. I really feel it is more of sense of wanting to understand why the adherents can read the same writings as others can but seem to claim they say something different than what outsiders are reading. And it seems curious that it is only the followers collectively who who see the words differently than the rest. I really think it is more the presentation than what is being said which draws criticism. I don't think the average poster is really concerned about an actual Bahai theocracy because it just isn't going to happen. Most people probably didn't know anything about the belief system before hearing about it on these forums. At least I hadn't. So I don't think you need be upset about trying to defend your beliefs or feel it is going to do any harm if other people of other faiths or none point our their take on the information that is being presented by the followers. In fact, I will go out on a limb and say it is the manner in which the information is presented which draws the criticisms. Many times it may come across as denial of facts with a certain air of superiority as if the only truth in the universe is the Baha'I truth which is quite insulting to other people who believe their truth is the right one. Especially when they are always misrepresented even after the Bahai are corrected over and over about what their own faiths teaches them. It seems almost robotic the same answers which are given to other faiths who try to correct Baha'I misrepresentations and misinterpretations. It is as if the Bahai have a script and they are going to 'stick to it' at all costs instead of listening to other's views or corrections even if it means alienating the very people they are hoping to attract.

Anyways, way off topic and it's only my personal observations so I'll leave the Bahai to your thread now. I just wanted you to know none hates Bahai or the followers. They just don't agree with the presentation of the messages I'm guessing.

I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact I have said similar in the past ... several times.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I only made that comment, because in that long early thread, whenever I asked for sources, the only ones I ever got were to Baha'i pages or sources. Of course it's difficult, as there are very few non-Baha'i sources about the Baha'i. Whenever I quoted from such a source, I was merely told that it was an ant-Baha'i ( read covenant breaker) website, and not to be even considered. So yes there is a lot of confirmation bias. Perhaps on both sides now.

Believe me, before I came here, I was indeed free from all preconceived ideas, as I knew nothing at all. I think most folks who do investigate these days learn fairly quickly a lot of 'interesting' stuff, so it's not a big deal any more. Thanks to the internet. There is a lot of testimony from ex-Baha'is about how, in the early days, controversial information was held back. I expect that to be denied here.

We're all free to use whatever sources we believe will be helpful. There does seem to be plenty of websites out there from both Baha'is and non-Baha'is in regards the Baha'i Faith.

Your post sounded a little as if the Baha'is are part of some controlling cult where we aren't allowed to read material that's critical of our religion. That's not true of course.

The exception for Baha'is are material written by Covenant breakers but most anti-Baha’i websites wouldn’t fall into this category so there’s no reason why we shouldn’t read it.

Other important considerations include Baha’is being free and even encouraged to associate with those who decide the Baha'i Faith is no longer for them.

Baha'is freely associate with our critics. There are a number of critics of the Baha'i Faith on RF the Baha'is maintain friendly and respectful dialogue with.

One should obviously consider bias from whatever source whether its Baha'i or not. Baha'is will obviously be pro-Baha'i. Christian fundamentalists are critical of anyone who doesn't share their beliefs. Many Muslims believe Muhammad was the last Prophet of all time so the Baha'i Faith is seen as an apostate religion and persecuted in a number of countries where Islam is the main religion. Atheists, Hindus and Buddhist will bring their unique perspective along with bias too. We all have bias to varying degrees. That doesn't mean we shouldn't hear what each other has to say.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For the most part sure. Still I have been accused of hate, having an anti-Baha'i agenda, and proselytising that agenda. Not exactly a friendly and respectful dialogue. It varies by person, which I think is key to recognising. You seem to have lumped all Baha'is together in their attitudes towards other faiths, whereas I see some as being far more tactful and discerning. From fundamentalist to liberal, in religious terminology.

The Baha'is have a clear directive from the Founder of our Faith to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. So that's the standard Baha'is should aspire to. We should also see the good in others and avoid fault finding. That being said, were human like everyone else and get frustrated and annoyed.

I've had all manner of criticisms levelled at me. I let most of it slide and avoid resentment. Maybe that's a personality attribute but Baha'is should forgive. I find holding onto stuff makes me unhappy.

 

[kiwimac]

Vedic Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are of a similar age. The language of one being very similar to the language of the other. A small example. In the Hindu Dharma Asura are a class of beings who oppose the Gods. In Gathic Zoroastrianism, Ahura (Sansk Asura) is part of the name of God; Ahura Mazda. In the Younger Avesta, the daevas are divinities that promote chaos and disorder. The two languages Sanskrit and Old Persian are related.

 

[kiwimac]

'Independent investigation', I discovered some time back is a misnomer, a Baha'ispeak irony. It's independent investigation, just so long as it's from a Baha'i source, or one favorable to Baha'i. In other words, heavy on the confirmation bias theme.

Fortunately we have the internet, and lots of other views, or sources, from which to do actual independent investigation. As wise medical practitioners say, "Get a second opinion."

Moreover the "independent investigation" is, according to Baha'i sources, supposed to end on finding Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Honestly, I don't believe for one minute people "hate Baha'i" and certainly not its followers.

Perhaps I was exaggerating a bit but I know for a fact that there are a few people on this forum who do not “like” the Baha’i Faith, and that is putting it mildly. It does not take much to figure that out; the fact that every post that is negative towards the Baha’is or the Baha’i Faith gets a WINNER is very telling. Let’s get real.

I really feel it is more of sense of wanting to understand why the adherents can read the same writings as others can but seem to claim they say something different than what outsiders are reading. And it seems curious that it is only the followers collectively who who see the words differently than the rest.

I guess you mean the outsiders interpret the Baha’i Writings differently? I am not sure what you are referring to but if it is about homosexuality, some outsiders seem to think that just because there is a Baha’i Law prohibiting sex between homosexuals that means we reject or hate homosexuals or treat them badly. And no, we are not discriminating just because there is a Baha’i Law. It is a Law, that’s all it is, and it only applies to Baha’is. Moreover, Baha’is can be homosexual and not follow that law; it is in between them and God what they do, unless they bring disgrace to the Baha’i Faith by acting out in public. The same would apply to going to a bar, getting all drunk and saying “I am a Baha’i” since drinking alcohol is also against Baha’i Law.

That statement someone on this thread made about homosexuals being treated by Baha’is as if they are “carrying a spiritual contagion” is just wrong. Maybe a Baha’i treated someone that way but that does not mean the Baha’i Faith condones treating homosexuals that way. It is a disgrace for someone to say that on a public forum, thus given unsuspecting readers the wrong impression…. “Gee, I guess that’s what the Baha’i Faith is all about.” That is just not the case.

This has nothing to do with interpretation of the Baha’i Writings, it is just an opinion some people hold about the Baha’is. You could just as easily say that we reject or even hate heterosexuals who have sex outside of marriage because our laws prohibit it, but nobody says that. Let’s get real. Nobody says the Baha’is reject or hate or treat badly Baha’is who drink alcohol. This is all about the fact that people believe everyone has an inherent right to homosexual behavior, and they think the Baha’i Faith is wrong to have a law prohibiting it. It is a hot issue in modern-day society.

I don't think the average poster is really concerned about an actual Baha’i theocracy because it just isn't going to happen.

There might be only one or two people on this forum who worry about that, but you are right, it is never going to happen, because it is a misrepresentation of what the Baha’i Faith teaches! So it is okay for outsiders to misrepresent what Baha'u'llah wrote and envisioned, calling the Kingdom of God a theocracy? The Baha’i Faith will never be involved in politics; that is strictly prohibited, so how could there ever be a Baha’i theocracy? That is absurd on its face.

Many times it may come across as denial of facts with a certain air of superiority as if the only truth in the universe is the Baha’i truth which is quite insulting to other people who believe their truth is the right one.

The Baha’i faith is the only major religion that accepts all the other religions of the past. We cannot help it is our religion is newer, but that does not mean we think we are superior. If anything, it is certain older religions who consider themselves superior because they believe their truth is the only right one.

Especially when they are always misrepresented even after the Baha’i are corrected over and over about what their own faiths teaches them. It seems almost robotic the same answers which are given to other faiths who try to correct Baha’i misrepresentations and misinterpretations.

I have no idea what you are referring to, but unless you saw a Baha’i do it yourself I think it is a bit naive to believe what people have said about the Baha’is, and there are a couple of posters who continually repeats this false mantra. They do it just because they can. I will straighten them out whenever I see their misrepresentations because that is in accord with justice.

Funny thing is with these types of people, when you ask them for evidence of their accusations they never respond.

 

[Trailblazer]

Moreover the "independent investigation" is, according to Baha'i sources, supposed to end on finding Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i faith.

Do you have any evidence to support that assertion? If not, it is just pure bunk. Kind of like TV advertising where the advertiser hopes the gullible person will buy his product without even doing any research about it, you are hoping some gullible people here will believe what you post, but not on my watch.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Moreover the "independent investigation" is, according to Baha'i sources, supposed to end on finding Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i faith.

Hi @kiwimac ,

Good to see another New Zealander here. Independent investigation of reality is really an open minded questioning attitude towards life. It can involve our approach in searching for the truth in religion but its also at the heart of making wise decisions as we journey through life.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Moreover the "independent investigation" is, according to Baha'i sources, supposed to end on finding Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i faith.

Hi @kiwimac ,

Good to see another New Zealander here. Independent investigation of reality is really an open minded questioning attitude towards life. It can involve our approach in searching for the truth in religion but its also at the heart of making wise decisions as we journey through life.

Just finished work and I would like to add that I also see it is neccessary in all aspects of our life.

In faith it is a great tool as up until the last century, most people followed the leader in Faith, they did not read nor try to understand their faith for themselves. It was also dangerous to attempt this.

Thus with such a gift, we do get to choose and logically if Baha'u'llah is who he claimed to be and the future unfolds as it is recorded, then yes it will in the end lead to what Baha'u'llah offered.

If not, then one willbe all the wiser if they pursue this way in life.

Regards Tony

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I can't speak for the others in this thread, the reasons why they might not like the Baha'i faith, but I really did want to touch on somewhere where I seemed to have made some errors....

I have been listening a bit too much to liberal politics. This fueled me into activism, and almost caused me to make choices which may have not been the solution to problems, like seeking hormones rather than seeking the healing power of God/Vishnu.

It just shows I'm pretty naive and seem to even be a tad bit easily misled. To the extent of wanting to bring any time LGBTQ+ isn't 1000% supported to light. Because that's what some of the articles and YouTube videos I've read and watched, fuel you to do.

But I realize I do like the Baha'is. To be honest, my threads rarely go past 20 replies so it was something for this one to reach 700+, and generate a lot of discussion. I just find it really hard to admit my error and how I can be pretty naive, someone my age shouldn't be so prone to following political ideas to a toxic degree.

I think both far sides of politics try to promote something new, promising, and different, but really just cause division.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Furthermore, to cover the theology aspect, my mind wasn't drawing that mental connection at all where the Baha'i faith and Hinduism connect and overlap. Then I dug deeper. And deeper. And it got interesting. So I'll settle for the answer of "maybe plausible" myself having read some of the stories I've been reading about the Baha'i faith and Hindu stories, but.... my standard of proof could be a bit lower than that of some.

 

[wandering peacefully]

I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact I have said similar in the past ... several times.

Oh well, I guess there becomes a point where it just isn't worth the bother. To each their own eh? I don't think it really matters anyway because the numbers are only heading in one direction. It's just an interesting study is all, but only to a point.

Now off to the Hindu Dir for some education .

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's super. You finally used non-Baha'i sources to get some true information. I'm impressed. We'll see if it lasts, and be sure I will correct you if you make the same mistake again in a few months., as you might just be saying this as of now to suit me.

No I didn’t. You’ll have to take back your like as it was from Shoghi Effendi that I found that fact. So it goes without saying that if the origin of Hinduism is unknown then so is it’s Founder unknown.

Hindu Religion
"… The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religions are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field.

From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 198, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1692)

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha'is have a clear directive from the Founder of our Faith to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. So that's the standard Baha'is should aspire to. We should also see the good in others and avoid fault finding. That being said, were human like everyone else and get frustrated and annoyed.

I've had all manner of criticisms levelled at me. I let most of it slide and avoid resentment. Maybe that's a personality attribute but Baha'is should forgive. I find holding onto stuff makes me unhappy.

And you’ve dealt with them admirably.

I find all the people here fine, devoted and upright people and they have all without exception treated me exceptionally well.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh well, I guess there becomes a point where it just isn't worth the bother. To each their own eh? I don't think it really matters anyway because the numbers are only heading in one direction. It's just an interesting study is all, but only to a point.

Now off to the Hindu Dir for some education .

Indeed, I've decided to give this a break for awhile, as before. It isn't really worth the bother. Best wishes, glad you learned something here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Honestly, I don't believe for one minute people "hate Baha'i" and certainly not its followers. I really feel it is more of sense of wanting to understand why the adherents can read the same writings as others can but seem to claim they say something different than what outsiders are reading. And it seems curious that it is only the followers collectively who who see the words differently than the rest. I really think it is more the presentation than what is being said which draws criticism. I don't think the average poster is really concerned about an actual Bahai theocracy because it just isn't going to happen. Most people probably didn't know anything about the belief system before hearing about it on these forums. At least I hadn't. So I don't think you need be upset about trying to defend your beliefs or feel it is going to do any harm if other people of other faiths or none point our their take on the information that is being presented by the followers. In fact, I will go out on a limb and say it is the manner in which the information is presented which draws the criticisms. Many times it may come across as denial of facts with a certain air of superiority as if the only truth in the universe is the Baha'I truth which is quite insulting to other people who believe their truth is the right one. Especially when they are always misrepresented even after the Bahai are corrected over and over about what their own faiths teaches them. It seems almost robotic the same answers which are given to other faiths who try to correct Baha'I misrepresentations and misinterpretations. It is as if the Bahai have a script and they are going to 'stick to it' at all costs instead of listening to other's views or corrections even if it means alienating the very people they are hoping to attract.

Anyways, way off topic and it's only my personal observations so I'll leave the Bahai to your thread now. I just wanted you to know none hates Bahai or the followers. They just don't agree with the presentation of the messages I'm guessing.

I’ve made a few mistakes myself which were corrected and I’m most grateful for that..

 

[Jim]

I will go out on a limb and say it is the manner in which the information is presented which draws the criticisms. Many times it may come across as denial of facts with a certain air of superiority as if the only truth in the universe is the Baha'I truth which is quite insulting to other people who believe their truth is the right one. Especially when they are always misrepresented even after the Bahai are corrected over and over about what their own faiths teaches them. It seems almost robotic the same answers which are given to other faiths who try to correct Baha'I misrepresentations and misinterpretations. It is as if the Bahai have a script and they are going to 'stick to it' at all costs instead of listening to other's views or corrections even if it means alienating the very people they are hoping to attract.

Sometimes when I see people complaining about the attitudes and behavior of people promoting some Baha’i religions in Internet discussions, I’m tempted to join in. I’ve felt the same way myself, many times. When I saw this, I started wondering again what’s different about what they do, from what people do who are promoting other religions. I’ve seen all those same attitudes and behavior in people promoting other religions, or what they think that science says.

One difference I see in people promoting Baha’i religions is that according to their beliefs they can’t simply dismiss other people’s scriptures as being wrong, the way people can when they’re promoting other religions. They try to find ways of saying that other people’s beliefs are wrong, without saying that their scriptures are wrong.

(edited to add the following)
Actually I do the same thing, or almost the same thing. I never think of my disagreements with people as being disagreements with their scriptures, and I have my own views about what their scriptures are saying, sometimes very different from theirs. That happens as much with people promoting Baha’i religions as it does with other people. In fact, maybe even more, and in the past with more hostility. I’ve been trying to improve on that.