Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[TransmutingSoul]

But some people have done just that, even if the main body of Baha'is do not recognize these groups as the Baha'i Faith.
The same thing happened in Christianity.

They are not called the "Baha'i Faith", as they are not the Baha'i Faith. No branch that removes itself from the tree will survive.

This is the same as Christianity, once it began to branch from the main body of believers, it was a broken Covenant.

The difference is that in this age, Baha'u'llah has said no division will succeed. Thus the way I see the future, is that this will most likely be enshrined in Law.

The future generations will see division for what it is, the destruction of humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes that is correct, all past faiths have suffered the breaking of the Covenant given of God and it was upon Peter that Jesus Christ would build the Church.

Is that your opinion, or is that an official Baha'i belief? And then, I assume, the true church would be the Catholics and their Popes?

With Muhammad, the rightful succession was through Imam Ali, just as the Bible predicted,

Which verses in the Bible do Baha'is believe predicts that?

 

[trident765]

Sorry this took so long.

In another tablet revealed in response to that controversy, Bahá’u’lláh rejects Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim to revelation, states that he "is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught," and mentions the extraordinary station of one of His sons.[^59] Later, in His Book of the Covenant, He would state that this high station belongs to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that Muḥammad-‘Alí is subordinate to him, and that all must turn toward ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.[^60] [59]: Bahá’u’lláh's tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361, and Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 251. [60]: See Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets, 221.
Nader Saiedi, "Logos and Civilization"

Ishraq Khavari is the name of an Iranian Baha'i scholar.

So the answer is that this tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361.

So, unless we dig up this book by this obscure Ishraq Khavari scholar (and likely also transcribe/translate it from the original language), then all we know about this tablet is this short snippet that consists of two sentence fragments joined by ellipses (...). Is this correct?

This incident is already known to Unitarian Bahais, and it is known that Haifans try to twist it into being about Bahaullah rebuking Mirza Muhammad Ali when he wasn't:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeSpeechBahai/comments/132aiz4
Mirza Muhammad Ali was 6 years old during this incident. If this incident demonstrated to Baha'u'llah that 6 year old Mirza Muhammad Ali was a bad guy, then why did Baha'u'llah appoint Mirza Muhammad Ali as his successor in his will, which was written long after this incident when Mirza Muhammad Ali was an adult?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is that your opinion, or is that an official Baha'i belief? And then, I assume, the true church would be the Catholics and their Popes?

It's an observation of past religions based on my understanding of what the purpose of Faith is, which includes explanations from the Baha'i Writings.

The true succession was through Peter, yet there was no clear details as to how that would unfold, the Catholic line is the legitimate line. As to how that evolved, in accordance with the counsels given by Jesus Chriat, that is another topic entirely.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

They are not called the "Baha'i Faith", as they are not the Baha'i Faith. No branch that removes itself from the tree will survive.

This is the same as Christianity, once it began to branch from the main body of believers, it was a broken Covenant.

The difference is that in this age, Baha'u'llah has said no division will succeed. Thus the way I see the future, is that this will most likely be enshrined in Law.

The future generations will see division for what it is, the destruction of humanity.

Regards Tony

This kind of thinking will end up destroying the Bahai Faith. When Dr Arbab launched his political coup of the UHJ, and started forcing the global Bahai community to do his Ruhi books and his Institute Process, many Bahais could see that this was going to be very bad for the Bahai community, but they went along with it anyway, for the sake of "unity".

Now 2 decades later, the Bahai community is in ruins, with poor attendance, boring gatherings, and an overwhelmingly elderly demographic. Why is it like this? One could say it was because Farzam Arbab pushed the Institute Process. But I think the more important problem was that when it was pushed, no one resisted it. The Bahais didn't resist because they wanted to be in "unity", and now they are on the verge of extinction as a result.

The reality is that Baha'u'llah didn't have such an extremist view of "unity" as most Bahais seem to think:

"Such exhortations to union and concord as are inscribed in the Books of the Prophets by the Pen of the Most High bear reference unto specific matters; not a union that would lead to disunity or a concord which would create discord. This is the station where measures are set unto everything..." --Baha'u'llah, Lawh i Maqdsud

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which verses in the Bible do Baha'is believe predicts that?

The two witnesses in Revelation are Muhammad and Imam Ali. The reason it says those two dead bodies layer in the street, is because the Covenant was broken Immediately upon the passing of Muhammad. Yet they were given 1260 years "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." (Each day for a year)

Abdu'l-Baha explained this chapter Revellation 11 in detail.

Note verse 7 where the Beast takes power over the two witnesses, this is the Sunni line. Then verse 8 states how the Faith given by Muhammad, who Ali was the Successor, became a dead body. Which would rule up to the year 1260 (31/2 Days is also 1260)

Verse 11 to 14 is where the Bab enters the prophecy, the Bab being g the 2nd Woe, with the 3rd woe to come quickly, Baha'u'llah.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This kind of thinking will end up destroying the Bahai Faith. When Dr Arbab launched his political coup of the UHJ, and started forcing the global Bahai community to do his Ruhi books and his Institute Process, many Bahais could see that this was going to be very bad for the Bahai community, but they went along with it anyway, for the sake of "unity".

Now 2 decades later, the Bahai community is in ruins, with poor attendance, boring gatherings, and an overwhelmingly elderly demographic. Why is it like this? One could say it was because Farzam Arbab pushed the Institute Process. But I think the more important problem was that when it was pushed, no one resisted it. The Bahais didn't resist because they wanted to be in "unity", and now they are on the verge of extinction as a result.

The reality is that Baha'u'llah didn't have such an extremist view of "unity" as most Bahais seem to think:

"Such exhortations to union and concord as are inscribed in the Books of the Prophets by the Pen of the Most High bear reference unto specific matters; not a union that would lead to disunity or a concord which would create discord. This is the station where measures are set unto everything..." --Baha'u'llah, Lawh i Maqdsud

I see humanity as a whole is in ruins, unable to determine which way to turn to find unity.

I see the Baha'i Faith has never been more united and is powering forward building a world order where the Oneness of humanity will be the fruit.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

I see humanity as a whole is in ruins, unable to determine which way to turn to find unity.

I see the Baha'i Faith has never been more united and is powering forward building a world order where the Oneness of humanity will be the fruit.

Regards Tony

What good is being united if they are going to die off? The overwhelming majority of Bahais are over 70 years old. No new converts, no children, and no one even young enough to have children. This is a sign that the religion is going to die. Are you ok with the Bahai Faith dying as long as the Bahais unitedly kill their religion? Because this is what is happening.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What good is being united if they are going to die off? The overwhelming majority of Bahais are over 70 years old. No new converts, no children, and no one even young enough to have children. This is a sign that the religion is going to die. Are you ok with the Bahai Faith dying as long as the Bahais unitedly kill their religion? Because this is what is happening.

This is written in Prophecy, it is fully expected an age like this would unfold, and that accusations like you offer, will come from every front, both from outside of the Faith and inside the faith.

Baha'u'llah said even if it is only one person stands firm, the Faith will triumph.

Our spiritual vision are very narrow, restricted to our state of being and our nature and nurture.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

This is written in Prophecy, it is fully expected an age like this would unfold, and that accusations like you offer, will come from every front, both from outside of the Faith and inside the faith.

Baha'u'llah said even if it is only one person stands firm, the Faith will triumph.

Our spiritual vision are very narrow, restricted to our state of being and our nature and nurture.

Regards Tony

Somewhere I recall that Shoghi Effendi said that if the Baha'is fail, others will have to arise in their stead and build the new world order, something like that. Are you familiar with where he said that?

 

[bahamut19]

Sorry this took so long.

In another tablet revealed in response to that controversy, Bahá’u’lláh rejects Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim to revelation, states that he "is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught," and mentions the extraordinary station of one of His sons.[^59] Later, in His Book of the Covenant, He would state that this high station belongs to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that Muḥammad-‘Alí is subordinate to him, and that all must turn toward ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.[^60] [59]: Bahá’u’lláh's tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361, and Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 251. [60]: See Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets, 221.
Nader Saiedi, "Logos and Civilization"

Ishraq Khavari is the name of an Iranian Baha'i scholar.

So the answer is that this tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361.

Let's take a look at this. You provide a portion of a tablet. Why is it you only have a portion? Why wouldn't the complete thing be translated, instead of a portion? Have you ever wondered why only portions are provided in English by Shoghi Effendi or other "scholars" who support this Covenant you belive in? Well... you are in luck. I have provided the full translation. I'll include the original Persian from the Ma'idiy-i-Asmani volume 4, page 361. Volume 4 was originally published in 1972 and was compiled by Abdu'l-Hamid Ishraq-Khavari, a "prominant Iranian Baha'i scholar" who became a Baha'i in 1927, 6 years after Shoghi Effendi became the Guardian.

Here is the 1st page....

مائدة اسماني

جلد چهارم

تأليف

عبد الحميد اشراق خاوری

موسسه ملی مطبوعات امری ۱۲۹ بديع

Heavenly Feast

Volume Four

Author

Abdul Hamid Ishraq Khavari

National Institute of Baha'i Publications, 129 Badi'

------------------------------------- Now for the entirety of Page 361---------------------------
-٣٦١-

الخلق لا ونفس الحق ولو يعترض علينا كل ذى قدرة وسلطان ان استمع قول من ينصحك ان سمعت لنفسك و ان اعرضت انه لهو الغنى المتعال " انتهى .


ردیف ن - مشتمل برهفت باب

باب اول

درباره ناقض اکبر

جمال مبارک در یکی از الواح میفرمایند قوله تعالی : بنويس بجناب مهدی انا انطقنا النبيل قبل على في ليشهدن الناس قدرتی وسلط انتى ثم عظمتي وكبريائي ولكن احبائي الجهلاء اتخذوه شريكا لنفسي وفسد وا في البلاد وكانوا من المفسدين ملاحظه نما که چقدر ناس جاهل اند نفوسیکه تلقاء حضورند معذلك رفته اند و چنین سخنها انتشار داده اند قل انه عبد من عبادي قد خلقناه بقدرتي وانطقناه لثناء نفسي بين العالمین واگر آنی از طل امر منحرف شود معدوم صرف خواهد بود قل ماسوائی قد خلق بقولى انه وامثاله انبتهم الله من هذه الشجرة هم سحائب الرحمة وغمائم الفضل وسرج الهداية وادلائي بين البرية أن يكونن ثابتا على امرى و ان ربك ما اتخذ لنفسه شريكا ولا شبيها ولا وزيرا ولا نظيرا ولا ندا ولا غدا
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-361-

Creation exists not but through the Self of Truth, and were every possessor of power and authority to oppose Us, still would We utter what befits Us. Heed the advice of him who counsels you, if you listen to your own self; and if you turn away, indeed, He is the Rich, the Self-Sufficient.

Appendix N - Containing Seven Chapters

Chapter One

Regarding the Greatest Breaker of the Covenant

The Blessed Beauty in one of the Tablets states, thus says the Exalted: "Write to His Excellency Mahdi: We have endowed the noble before, through Our voice, so that people may witness Our power and authority, then Our greatness and majesty. But My ignorant loved ones have taken him as a partner unto Me, causing corruption in the lands, and they have been among the corrupt. Observe how ignorant the souls are who are in Our presence, yet they have gone astray and spread such words. Say: He is a servant among My servants, whom We created by Our power, and We made him speak in praise of Me among the worlds. And if he deviates an instant from My command, he will surely be obliterated. Say: Nothing but My command has created him and his likes. Allah has grown them from this tree. They are the clouds of mercy, the rains of bounty, the lamps of guidance, and My guides among creation, to be steadfast in My command. And indeed, your Lord has not taken unto Himself a partner, nor a likeness, nor a minister, nor a peer, nor an equal, nor a successor."
-------------------- Page 362 is a different writing --------------------------------------------------------
Now, let's actually look at what is written by Baha'u'llah.

"But My ignorant loved ones have taken him as a partner unto Me, causing corruption in the lands, and they have been among the corrupt."

As you can see, Baha'u'llah describes what the problem is in this sentence. It is not Mirza Muhammad Ali. The problem is there are people in the Faith who are taking Mirza Muhammad Ali as a partner unto Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah does not describe Mirza Muhammad Ali as making this claim himself, but that these are claims being made about Mirza Muhammad Ali by other Baha'is. He calls these believers ignorant and have gone astray. How does Baha'u'llah respond?

Say: He (Mirza Muhammad Ali) is a servant among My servants, whom We created by Our power, and We made him speak in praise of Me among the worlds. And if he deviates an instant from My command, he will surely be obliterated. Say: Nothing but My command has created him and his likes. Allah has grown them from this tree. They are the clouds of mercy, the rains of bounty, the lamps of guidance, and My guides among creation, to be steadfast in My command. And indeed, your Lord has not taken unto Himself a partner, nor a likeness, nor a minister, nor a peer, nor an equal, nor a successor."

Let's take a closer look at this response. "We made him speak..." This means Mirza Muhammad Ali was speaking directly from God's command. The Tablet of Khalil also describes this phenomena and Baha'u'llah's response. Mirza Muhammad Ali, despite not being a Manifestation of God, was allowed by God to speak verses on behalf of God. This phenomena was a test in the faith of Baha'is, and apparently many Baha'is failed this test. They joined partners unto God. "If he deviates..." is a conditional statement, and nothing written by Baha'u'llah suggests Mirza Muhammad Ali did deviate. "created him and his likes" means there were others who were also able to speak directly on God's command, while also not being Manifestations of God. This could have been Abdul-Baha, or maybe others who may not be currently acknowledged as believers by current Baha'is. "your Lord has not taken unto Himself a partner... nor a successor." This means the station of these individuals are less despite the gift God provided them. Finally, nothing in here suggests these individuals have any share in infallibility.

So.. do you understand the danger in taking something out of context? And... doesn't this make you question how authentic the information provided to you by those who teach and preach the "Covenant" which leads to an infallible Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and UHJ. Wouldn't this very tablet cause you to be worried about elevating the status of Abdul-Baha as this "perfect" human, when Baha'u'llah warned against "joining a partner unto Me?" Especially when you are given bad information by these "infallible" things?

One more thing.. the title "The Greatest Breaker of the Covenant" was a title created by Khavari, it is not the actual name of the writing. Khavari is a supporter of the official Baha'i Faith "Covenant" position, and as a "scholar" supported by Shoghi Effendi, he was incapable of writing without personal bias.

 

[bahamut19]

I see humanity as a whole is in ruins, unable to determine which way to turn to find unity.

I see the Baha'i Faith has never been more united and is powering forward building a world order where the Oneness of humanity will be the fruit.

Regards Tony

Hence this very discussion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Somewhere I recall that Shoghi Effendi said that if the Baha'is fail, others will have to arise in their stead and build the new world order, something like that. Are you familiar with where he said that?

Yes there is such advice, something similar to that, I would have to look it up.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let's take a closer look at this response. "We made him speak..." This means Mirza Muhammad Ali was speaking directly from God's command.

I see this does not mean that. Mirza Muhammad Ali got his inspiration from Baha'u'llah, not as a Messenger, but from the Messenger.

That is why Baha'u'llah can also say,

"...And if he deviates an instant from My command, he will surely be obliterated. Say: Nothing but My command has created him and his likes..."

That is why being close to a Messenger is literally dangerous to a weak soul, they may think they are giving the Revelation.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The two witnesses in Revelation are Muhammad and Imam Ali. The reason it says those two dead bodies layer in the street, is because the Covenant was broken Immediately upon the passing of Muhammad. Yet they were given 1260 years "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." (Each day for a year)

Abdu'l-Baha explained this chapter Revellation 11 in detail.

Note verse 7 where the Beast takes power over the two witnesses, this is the Sunni line. Then verse 8 states how the Faith given by Muhammad, who Ali was the Successor, became a dead body. Which would rule up to the year 1260 (31/2 Days is also 1260)

Verse 11 to 14 is where the Bab enters the prophecy, the Bab being g the 2nd Woe, with the 3rd woe to come quickly, Baha'u'llah.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, I have discussed that interpretation of those verses with Baha'is before. And I'm sure I'll be discussing it with Baha'is again in the future. But not today. You and the others here have plenty to discuss and sort out already. Thanks again for getting back to me on this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Somewhere I recall that Shoghi Effendi said that if the Baha'is fail, others will have to arise in their stead and build the new world order, something like that.

a world order is a utopian mirage claimed by charlatans or ignorant. it is not going to come about through any religion and least by bahais. the moment you mention 'manifestation' (which best translate into 'avatara', a form of your allah), all the hope of unity is destroyed. otherwise also, the world is too factitious to have any kind of unity.

 

[Trailblazer]

a world order is a utopian mirage claimed by charlatans or ignorant. it is not going to come about through any religion and least by bahais. the moment you mention 'manifestation' (which best translate into 'avatara', a form of your allah), all the hope of unity is destroyed. otherwise also, the world is too factitious to have any kind of unity.

The new world order is a reality, but neither you nor I will live long enough to see it unfold.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The new world order is a reality, but neither you nor I will live long enough to see it unfold.

do you have any reason for such a belief other than the sayings of a 19th century uneducated iranian who claimed to be an avatara of allah?

 

[Trailblazer]

do you have any reason for such a belief other than the sayings of a 19th century uneducated iranian who claimed to be an avatara of allah?

No.

 

[Aupmanyav]

well, to you what you believe even if it was said by a 19th century iranian without providing any evidence.
science provides me much better reasons to believe what it says.