Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[Trailblazer]

science provides me much better reasons to believe what it says.

You don't have to 'believe' science since science contains proven facts.
Religion is not about proven facts, which is why it must be believed by the believers.

 

[bahamut19]

well, to you what you believe even if it was said by a 19th century iranian without providing any evidence.
science provides me much better reasons to believe what it says.

Maybe the discussion about Theism vs Atheism could be better served in a different thread? Maybe start a topic about proofs or non-proofs of God in the Baha'i Faith or something.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

do you have any reason for such a belief other than the sayings of a 19th century uneducated iranian who claimed to be an avatara of allah?

Yes, apart from the innate infinate knowledge that is an inherent part of Baha’u’llah being a Messenger, it is a promise given by God to all the Messengers, that an age will come when humanity is mature enough to accept the oneness of God and the oneness of humanity.

One ancient prayer is "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven", a promise that humanity will finally be one people under one God.

It is our own worldly desires that keeps us from this unity.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It is our own worldly desires that keeps us from this unity.

That is one thing that keeps us from unity, but it is not the whole ball of wax.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The new world order is a reality, but neither you nor I will live long enough to see it unfold.

I personally thank all those who are building the foundations, so in a positive sense, we are witnessing the commencement of the structure that will house the Most Great Peace.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

a world order is a utopian mirage claimed by charlatans or ignorant. it is not going to come about through any religion and least by bahais. the moment you mention 'manifestation' (which best translate into 'avatara', a form of your allah), all the hope of unity is destroyed. otherwise also, the world is too factitious to have any kind of unity.

Hand on heart, that is very wrong, humanity has the capacity for unity, it is only that our own choices prevent it becoming a reality, in this small moment of time.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks Tony, I have discussed that interpretation of those verses with Baha'is before. And I'm sure I'll be discussing it with Baha'is again in the future. But not today. You and the others here have plenty to discuss and sort out already. Thanks again for getting back to me on this.

Stay well, stay safe, stay happy CG. Wet season is approaching my part of the world, cyclones and currently low 40's with very high humidity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is one thing that keeps us from unity, but it is not the whole ball of wax.

I think one word can cover it, materialism. Which I personally translate to worldly desires.

Just to let you know my frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe the discussion about Theism vs Atheism could be better served in a different thread? Maybe start a topic about proofs or non-proofs of God in the Baha'i Faith or something.

I can assure you we have been there and done that.

@Aupmanyav can see the potential in what is offered about the oneness of humanity and does not want to see that change includes humanity embracing God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It is our own worldly desires that keeps us from this unity.

In my personal opinion I think that the greatest barrier to unity is the existence of all the older religions who all cling to their own beliefs.
There can never be unity until the adherents to the older religions are willing to unite under one common banner.

I am not worried because I believe that will happen eventually, since it has been ordained by God.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

 

[Trailblazer]

I think one word can cover it, materialism. Which I personally translate to worldly desires.

Just to let you know my frame of reference.

Regards Tony

Worldly desire does cover it.
As I just said, it is worldly desires that cause people to cling to the older religions and thus prevent them from uniting under one common banner.

 

[Trailblazer]

Stay well, stay safe, stay happy CG. Wet season is approaching my part of the world, cyclones and currently low 40's with very high humidity.

Regards Tony

The wet season already came to my neck of the woods, although it is partly sunny today.
It is 39F today, kind of cold for this time of the year.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my personal opinion I think that the greatest barrier to unity is the existence of all the older religions who all cling to their own beliefs.
There can never be unity until the adherents to the older religions are willing to unite under one common banner.

I am not worried because I believe that will happen eventually, since it has been ordained by God.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

I agree.
Just to let you know my frame of reference, I see humanity adopting their own interpretations of those scriptures, is under the umbrella of materialism.

That is because all those scriptures also have the potential to unite all humanity, even if they did not reach that potential because of the actions of those that adopted them.

In that lays a warning for the Baha'i Faith as well.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree.
Just to let you know my frame of reference, I see humanity adopting their own interpretations of those scriptures, is under the umbrella of materialism.

Everything we read has to be interpreted to assign a meaning, so everyone has their own interpretations of scriptures.
I don't think that falls under the umbrella of materialism.

That is because all those scriptures also have the potential to unite all humanity, even if they did not reach that potential because of the actions of those that adopted them.

In that lays a warning for the Baha'i Faith as well.

How do scriptures have the potential to unite all of humanity unless humans carry out the actions that are enjoined in the scriptures?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Everything we read has to be interpreted to assign a meaning, so everyone has their own interpretations of scriptures.
I don't think that falls under the umbrella of materialism.

Big topic, I am thinking that is why there is no authority to interpret the scriptures anymore, all that required interpretation for this age has been done, leaving the rest for us to consider as individuals and groups, knowing there will be no more official interpretations.

That is where it fell down in the past, the intent of the interpretation, was it for the good of all, or was it for personal gain, or to jeep hold on one's power over other people.

That is aspect I place under materialism, as interpretation can also be our spiritual growth.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do scriptures have the potential to unite all of humanity unless humans carry out the actions that are enjoined in the scriptures?

I would have to look up the sources of my thoughts, but here is one. (Sorry off to work)

“Is not the object of every Revelation,” He asks, “to effect a transformation in the whole character of mankind, a transformation that shall manifest itself, both outwardly and inwardly, that shall affect both its inner life and external conditions?”

So the potential is there, but as you offered, humanity was no mature enough, nor had it progressed to the degree where it could take that potential to a global audience.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, apart from the innate infinate knowledge that is an inherent part of Baha’u’llah being a Messenger, it is a promise given by God to all the Messengers, that an age will come when humanity is mature enough to accept the oneness of God and the oneness of humanity.

One ancient prayer is "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven", a promise that humanity will finally be one people under one God.

It is our own worldly desires that keeps us from this unity.

Regards Tony

What else does the NT say? Can't take just a few words from an "ancient" prayer and make it mean what you want it to. Or... maybe you can. Is it okay or not to have different interpretations of religious writings and not be judged or called wrong for having them?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You don't have to 'believe' science since science contains proven facts.
Religion is not about proven facts, which is why it must be believed by the believers.

science does not always gives proven facts, but gives theories. it mentions the probabilities clearly as to what has been found to support them and what is not fully explained. then further research and analysis goes on.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, apart from the innate infinate knowledge that is an inherent part of Baha’u’llah being a Messenger, it is a promise given by God to all the Messengers, that an age will come when humanity is mature enough to accept the oneness of God and the oneness of humanity.
One ancient prayer is "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven", a promise that humanity will finally be one people under one God.
It is our own worldly desires that keeps us from this unity.

there is no evidence of existence of god and none that bahollah was dispatched by such god. there is none about jesus and muhammad too.
a promise that the kingdom of god is arriving soon or a promise of 72 houries if some one dies in the cause of their god are just promises with no guarantee.
sdid the ancient prayers bring that about whatever be the reason? ha the human behavior changed in any way since the ancient times?

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav can see the potential in what is offered about the oneness of humanity and does not want to see that change includes humanity embracing God.

the more humanity embraces the god, the more conflicts will be there. because either you will be worshiping a different god or following a different messenger or book.