Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Are you referring to miracles?A proof from evidence: this is evidence that this and that is impossible except if so and so is sent by God.
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Are you referring to miracles?A proof from evidence: this is evidence that this and that is impossible except if so and so is sent by God.
Those count. But not necessarily physical miracles.Are you referring to miracles?
Then what kind of miracles?Those count. But not necessarily physical miracles.
For example, Quran has cumulative case of linguistic features that humans have never done, still can't do, and is obviously beyond their capability. I've read Bahai Writings, it claims that they are similarly signs of God like the Quran. But I've seen humans write better and has no linguistic miracle features and subtle signs like the Quran, that when you begin to witness, you know are from God.Then what kind of miracles?
Since that is in the Qur'an, why would it be repeated in the Baha'i scriptures?I don't see this is Bahai scriptures, but I witness it in Quran.
The speech of Bahai scriptures is mundane. It doesn't contain any sign it being from God. I would expect God to replace the Quran with something like it or better it terms of evidence, sign, and proof. The Quran itself says he never abrogates or replaces a sign/proof except with like of it or better.Since that is in the Qur'an, why would it be repeated in the Baha'i scriptures?
Why does it have to be an either-or? I believe both are from God, just as all Baha'is do.
That is only your subjective personal opinion, what you prefer. I cannot compare the Qur'an to the Baha'i Writings since I have not read the Qur'an, except for some passages that Baha'u'llah quoted, but I have to admit those verses were eloquent.The speech of Bahai scriptures is mundane. It doesn't contain any sign it being from God. I would expect God to replace the Quran with something like it or better it terms of evidence, sign, and proof. The Quran itself says he never abrogates or replaces a sign/proof except with like of it or better.
So it can't be a downgrade in terms of evidence and proof. The Quran is highly better, and if I recall correctly Shokh Efendi even said that it's linguistic poetically superior the to the Bahai Scriptures and unique.
I will, as soon as I have time! I think my late husband had a copy and it is in the bookshelf somewhere.I suggest you study Quran and compare them.
Can you read Arabic?I will, as soon as I have time! I think my late husband had a copy and it is in the bookshelf somewhere.
No, but I wish I could.Can you read Arabic?
Can you explain exactly what you mean by the Institute Process and why you think that the Institute Process destroys Baha'i communities?
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I am an older Baha'i and I never took part in Ruhi, if that is what you mean by the Institute Process, but that is not a reason to not take part in other Baha'i activities such as Feasts.
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Are you saying that young people who belong to the Baha'i Faith don't attend Baha'i activities because of the Institute Process? How do you know that?
I can't say this. The Institute Process is a bad thing the Baha'i administration is doing. But there are an unlimited number of other bad things the Baha'i administration could be doing in the absence of the Institute Process.What if the Baha'i Faith was not doing the Institute Process, then would you have no objections to what they are doing?
The institute process is a great example. With the process and the Ruhi coursework and implementation, there are no qualitative or quantitative metrics or information to understand what success is. There is no information revealed about them other than during a Ridvan message listing the total programs of growth, social action initiative, etc. Without any way to measure success or information about specific assemblies or clusters, there is no way to adapt, learn from others, or see if there needs to be a pivot or reset. With the idea that all of this comes from an infallible body, that is an organization which will not error, then there will never be any pressure or need to consider what success is or processes of improvement.I can't say this. The Institute Process is a bad thing the Baha'i administration is doing. But there are an unlimited number of other bad things the Baha'i administration could be doing in the absence of the Institute Process.
50 years ago, I was told that whole villages had become Baha'i. I'd be interested in hearing how any village with 25% or more Baha'is is doing.Once, on the reddit r/bahai forum, someone mentioned a community in Uganda where 95% of the population were Baha'i. I asked which community. The moderators deleted my question and from thereafter, any comment I made needed moderator approval. All I seriously asked was where in Uganda is 95% Baha'i? I seriously would have wanted to take a trip and see how this happened and what good things I could learn from it. Yet, I will never have this opportunity because there mere act of questioning was forbidden, even about something so simple as a feel-good story.
The institute process is a great example. With the process and the Ruhi coursework and implementation, there are no qualitative or quantitative metrics or information to understand what success is. There is no information revealed about them other than during a Ridvan message listing the total programs of growth, social action initiative, etc. Without any way to measure success or information about specific assemblies or clusters, there is no way to adapt, learn from others, or see if there needs to be a pivot or reset. With the idea that all of this comes from an infallible body, that is an organization which will not error, then there will never be any pressure or need to consider what success is or processes of improvement.
If the organization was considered able to make errors, especially in aspects where Baha'u'llah does not outline the function of the houses of justice such as administration, then there could be processes in place to improve and change especially at the local level.
Also, in regards to the Ridvan 2021 message for the 5 year plan, the UHJ is hoping for a 12.7% annualized (compounding) growth in core activities and the number of clusters having intensive programs of growth year over year in order to achieve their stated goals. This is the only thing which can be measurable. If they do not have this large growth each year, what will happen? Will Baha'is pretend it never happened and blindly say "Covenant Covenant!" or will they question why this 5 year plan did not reach the stated goals and that maybe, just maybe, there should be a paradigm shift?
That is just a forum moderated by some people, and I've had a problem or two from them myself, along a similar line. That has nothing to do with Baha'i Administration.Once, on the reddit r/bahai forum, someone mentioned a community in Uganda where 95% of the population were Baha'i. I asked which community. The moderators deleted my question and from thereafter, any comment I made needed moderator approval. All I seriously asked was where in Uganda is 95% Baha'i? I seriously would have wanted to take a trip and see how this happened and what good things I could learn from it. Yet, I will never have this opportunity because there mere act of questioning was forbidden, even about something so simple as a feel-good story.
Aside from the accusation of purposeful mistranslation which I deem to be entirely false, the UHJ does not make anyone a Covenant-breaker to be shunned on people who question their ideas. They only do that for people in organizations that challenged at some point in the Covenant being passed to Abdu'l-Baha and set up an alternative organization in response, and the same in regards to Shoghi Effendi or the UHJ.So far we can see certain passages of Baha'u'llah have been purposefully mistranslated to change its meaning favorable to the Covenant idea, certain passages only translated outside of context so they can be made to seem they are about a meaning favorable to the Covenant, excommunication of people who question or challenge these ideas, and the filtering of any content where they are able to regarding said Covenant and directives of the UHJ.
I apologize for the wrong information. It was the 9 year plan from 2022. On page 21, it describes some numbers. There were 4,000 intensive programs of growth. There are 2 higher levels described, where 1,000 clusters surpassed the third milestone, and 30 clusters have over 1,000 core activities. One unspecified cluster has over 20,000 participants.There was a 1 year plan in 2021, and a nine year plan in 2022, so there is some kind of error concerning that. I also see nothing about a 12.7% growth in 2021 or 2022 Ridvan messages. You seem to have some erroneous information on all that. It doesn't matter, though. Whatever goal is not reached, if it isn't, the UHJ itself will make adjustments to the plan. I met the UHJ myself and detected the highest integrity from them. They are also elected for qualities of character.
The Bible and the NT are filled with miracles. They do become a big part of what makes the religion true and from God. Baha'is do have an important point about "miracles"... they only are convincing to the people that witnessed them. But that's not exactly true, because we are then expected to trust their testimony that those things actually happened.Those count. But not necessarily physical miracles.
In my particular cluster in Montgomery County, Ohio the situation has been stagnant for a good while. It is one of the more stagnant clusters. It is very hard, it seems, in this area to include friends of the Faith in our core activities. Nationwide in the US it was reported that 64% of the children in children classes are not Baha'is, for Junior Youth the figure is 72% of junior youth in junior youth classes are not Baha'is. As to those two activities at one time there was good participation by a children class in Dayton by children who were not Baha'is, but today I am not aware of any childrens classes at all in this county because the Baha'i center in Dayton had to close where these classes took place, nor junior youth classes right now. There is a shortage of Baha'i youth and children here, and that may the case nationwide. Nationwide 28% of participants are friends of the faith in devotionals and study classes, and certainly there is good activity on that front, but not very many friends of the Faith involved in those right now. In the US the number of participants in children's classes increased from 5,028 to 5,090. The number of participants in junior youth classes shrunk from 4,087 to 3,724. The number of people in study classes shrunk from 13,111 to 11,390. The number of participants in devotionals went from 56, 309 to 52,915. The number of core activities are much the same. However, this applies to the US only. I don't know what the situation may be in other countries around the world.Let me know your calculations. Are you seeing 12.7% growth in your cluster or community?
I want to add one more thing. The US community was stagnant in the number of Baha'is in the US before the institute process went into place. So in my estimation the institute process has neither increased or decreased the growth of the number of Baha'is in the US.Let me know your calculations. Are you seeing 12.7% growth in your cluster or community?
Are these numbers year over year?In my particular cluster in Montgomery County, Ohio the situation has been stagnant for a good while. It is one of the more stagnant clusters. It is very hard, it seems, in this area to include friends of the Faith in our core activities. Nationwide in the US it was reported that 64% of the children in children classes are not Baha'is, for Junior Youth the figure is 72% of junior youth in junior youth classes are not Baha'is. As to those two activities at one time there was good participation by a children class in Dayton by children who were not Baha'is, but today I am not aware of any childrens classes at all in this county because the Baha'i center in Dayton had to close where these classes took place, nor junior youth classes right now. There is a shortage of Baha'i youth and children here, and that may the case nationwide. Nationwide 28% of participants are friends of the faith in devotionals and study classes, and certainly there is good activity on that front, but not very many friends of the Faith involved in those right now. In the US the number of participants in children's classes increased from 5,028 to 5,090. The number of participants in junior youth classes shrunk from 4,087 to 3,724. The number of people in study classes shrunk from 13,111 to 11,390. The number of participants in devotionals went from 56, 309 to 52,915. The number of core activities are much the same. However, this applies to the US only. I don't know what the situation may be in other countries around the world.