Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[Link]

The Bible and the NT are filled with miracles. They do become a big part of what makes the religion true and from God. Baha'is do have an important point about "miracles"... they only are convincing to the people that witnessed them. But that's not exactly true, because we are then expected to trust their testimony that those things actually happened.

And people in a religion, like Christianity, do come to believe that the stories in the Bible and NT are true. I question them. Like a typical one is Jonah being swallowed by a big fish. Or that Moses parted the seas. Or may favorite, Moses' staff turned into a snake.

Great stories. Great miracles. But did they really happen? What's strange for me is that Baha'is downplay the miracles in the Bible and deny that one of the greatest miracles, the resurrection of Jesus, really happened.

But to get back on track with the thread.... The succession of leadership in the Baha'i Faith goes all the way back to you and your religion. Was the Bab the "Promised One", "the Madhi" or whatever he was claiming to be? Then... was there supposed to be two "Promised Ones", the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Then within the Baha'i Faith itself, that's for them to decide, whether Abdul Baha' and Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ are the legitimate ones that were to succeed Baha'u'llah.

The thing is because miracles are stuck in the past (except the writing type like Quran), it's necessary that the divine mission be continued in succession of guides that all display miracles.

The Bahai faith says Bab is the Mahdi, well if it's true, that means Mohammad (s) either had eleven successors or 11 + (Bab + Baha'allah + Abdul Baha + Shokh Efendi) making 15. It goes against the Quranic and hadith number of successors to twelve.

 

[CG Didymus]

The thing is because miracles are stuck in the past (except the writing type like Quran), it's necessary that the divine mission be continued in succession of guides that all display miracles.

The Bahai faith says Bab is the Mahdi, well if it's true, that means Mohammad (s) either had eleven successors or 11 + (Bab + Baha'allah + Abdul Baha + Shokh Efendi) making 15. It goes against the Quranic and hadith number of successors to twelve.

Coming from what I know about Christianity, what Baha'is believe is a little off. Most of the prophecies that Bahai's use concerning the return of Jesus point to 1844. But that was the Bab. Was he then the return of Christ? No, he was like Elijah, the forerunner. But then Baha'is make the forerunner a manifestation also.

I don't know what you think of them saying that Muhammad and Ali were the "Two Witnesses" from Revelation. And that Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were the "Three Woes" from another chapter in Revelation. But, for me, it's a real stretch, and they need some very creative interpreting to make it work. But, of course, for them, that's not a problem and makes perfect sense.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good morning everyone.

I have invited (with their permission) a member of the Baha'i Faith loyal to the Universal House of Justice based in Haifa (represented unofficially by Trailblazer) to discuss the Baha'i Covenant of Baha'u'llah with a Baha'i from outside the Haifa based group (represented unofficially by trident765).

Without further ado a warm welcome to @trident765 and @Trailblazer

I'm kind of sad that the discussion seems to be over.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm kind of sad that the discussion seems to be over.

It was kind of inevitable that it would come to an end, although I believe it demonstrated rather adequately just how subject to interpretation and ambiguity the covenant of Baha'u'llah is.

 

[Vinayaka]

It was kind of inevitable that it would come to an end, although I believe it demonstrated rather adequately just how subject to interpretation and ambiguity the covenant of Baha'u'llah is.

Too bad you didn't have an Orthodox Baha'i to add further to the mix.

 

[danieldemol]

Too bad you didn't have an Orthodox Baha'i to add further to the mix.

I would have had to word my request a bit differently because according to my understanding they split with the Haifa based Baha'i after Shoghi Effendi, so my original request was to support their group using the will of Baha'u'llah.

Bringing in Orthodox Baha'i would have made the debate lopsided because they seem to accept Abdul-Baha through to Shogi Effendi so we would have people quoting Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi against the Unitarian Baha'i for whom the writings of these two figures are not considered infallible.

I'm not opposed to starting a debate between Orthodox Baha'i and Haifa based Baha'i in principle but finding someone who considers Abdul-Baha through to Shoghi Effendi infallible and willing to debate with people they consider covenant breakers can be quite the task.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would have had to word my request a bit differently because according to my understanding they split with the Haifa based Baha'i after Shoghi Effendi, so my original request was to support their group using the will of Baha'u'llah.

Bringing in Orthodox Baha'i would have made the debate lopsided because they seem to accept Abdul-Baha through to Shogi Effendi so we would have people quoting Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi against the Unitarian Baha'i for whom the writings of these two figures are not considered infallible.

I'm not opposed to starting a debate between Orthodox Baha'i and Haifa based Baha'i in principle but finding someone who considers Abdul-Baha through to Shoghi Effendi infallible and willing to debate with people they consider covenant breakers can be quite the task.

I just wanted to eat more popcorn. Selfish reason.

 

[Truthseeker]

Are these numbers year over year?

The first numbers are from 2022, the second ones from 2023.

 

[bahamut19]

The first numbers are from 2022, the second ones from 2023.

Given your experience in Ohio, do think 12.7% annual growth is possible there or in surrounding communities? BTW, I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee, and the Baha'i community is experiencing similar issues as you described. Some of the decline in activity is mostly attributable to the general disinterest of Americans in following organized religion and the lack of trust in religious institutions. Trident had alluded to a fact much earlier in this discussion which mirrors the numbers you provided. This is the decline and lack of Baha'i young people being involved in Baha'i activities.

I think when Shoghi Effendi banished most of Baha'u'llah's family from the Baha'i Faith, it set a precedent which cannot be reversed. This precedent is the family unit is not valued as much as it should be in the Faith, or at least not valued as a foundational and fundamental institution of the faith. There are compilations about family life and such, but it feels more like words without being practiced. The Aqdas isn't really followed. Do you know of a Baha'i in your community who paid dowry upon getting married? Or observed a year of patience upon separation prior to divorce? What Mashriq'ul-Adhkar does a Baha'i parent take their children to hear the verses of God being melodiously spoken, chanted, or sung?

I highly believe the only pathway for Baha'u'llah's vision to gain momentum again is to follow the Aqdas, even if it seems difficult or unpopular, and form families and communities which can be distinguished. Forget the UHJ as an infallible institution, and use the resources you have remaining to invest in the community of Kettering or Montgomery County. Make the spiritual journey meaningful, joyful where possible, and the word Baha'i or Baha'u'llah be associated with the remembrance of God and the respect and admiration of the city.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think when Shoghi Effendi banished most of Baha'u'llah's family from the Baha'i Faith, it set a precedent which cannot be reversed. This precedent is the family unit is not valued as much as it should be in the Faith, or at least not valued as a foundational and fundamental institution of the faith.

They were banished for what I think were valid reasons. I'll leave it at that. Can you imagine the anguish that Shoghi Effendi felt when he declared his own mother father Covenant-breakers?

There are compilations about family life and such, but it feels more like words without being practiced. The Aqdas isn't really followed. Do you know of a Baha'i in your community who paid dowry upon getting married? Or observed a year of patience upon separation prior to divorce? What Mashriq'ul-Adhkar does a Baha'i parent take their children to hear the verses of God being melodiously spoken, chanted, or sung?

That law of the dowry is not in force yet. It is the right of every head of the Baha'i to decide when a law is to be applied. Some laws not being applied yet are for obvious reasons, such as the penalties for murder, arson, or theft. Others are more subtle such as the law of the dowry.

Yes, people observe the year of patience quite a bit. As to the Mashriq'ul-Adhkars being visited, obviously we don't have a lot of those yet. People visit them when they can.

Given your experience in Ohio, do think 12.7% annual growth is possible there or in surrounding communities? BTW, I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee, and the Baha'i community is experiencing similar issues as you described. Some of the decline in activity is mostly attributable to the general disinterest of Americans in following organized religion and the lack of trust in religious institutions. Trident had alluded to a fact much earlier in this discussion which mirrors the numbers you provided. This is the decline and lack of Baha'i young people being involved in Baha'i activities.

No I don't believe that 12.7% growth will happen in America. The same is true of probably most Western countries, where as you said organized religion has a bad reputation, and also materialism is eating at us. When I went on pilgrimage the Universal House of Justice informed us it was those countries that are poor with the most turmoil that growth was happening. The same, I suppose, would be true now.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The thing is because miracles are stuck in the past (except the writing type like Quran), it's necessary that the divine mission be continued in succession of guides that all display miracles.

The Bahai faith says Bab is the Mahdi, well if it's true, that means Mohammad (s) either had eleven successors or 11 + (Bab + Baha'allah + Abdul Baha + Shokh Efendi) making 15. It goes against the Quranic and hadith number of successors to twelve.

Let me help you with understanding the Baha'i view.

In Bahai view, there are independent Dispensations. For example, Buddha started a new independent Dispensation in His own time. Long before Buddha, we believe Krishna lived, who was also opener of a new Dispensation in His own time. Likewise, for example, Moses, established a new Dispensation. None of these independent Manifestations were successors of another Manifestation.
Then we come to the time of Manifestation of Jesus. Although He was a promised one of Moses, yet, He is not a successor of Moses, although the Jews expect that the real Messiah will not be an independent Manifestation. They believe that the Real Messiah will preach Jewish Torah.
The same is true about Muhammad and the Bab. Both are independent Manifestations.
However the Bab, had multiple Missions. In the beginning of His mission, He started preaching the Quran, in the same way that Jesus, in the beginning was teaching Torah as a Jew. In the later part of their mission, they broke away from the older Religion, and established an independent Faith. So, it could be said that, in the beginning, the Bab or Jesus were still a successor of previous Dispensation, yet, later they broke away.

 

[Link]

Let me help you with understanding the Baha'i view.

In Bahai view, there are independent Dispensations. For example, Buddha started a new independent Dispensation in His own time. Long before Buddha, we believe Krishna lived, who was also opener of a new Dispensation in His own time. Likewise, for example, Moses, established a new Dispensation. None of these independent Manifestations were successors of another Manifestation.
Then we come to the time of Manifestation of Jesus. Although He was a promised one of Moses, yet, He is not a successor of Moses, although the Jews expect that the real Messiah will not be an independent Manifestation. They believe that the Real Messiah will preach Jewish Torah.
The same is true about Muhammad and the Bab. Both are independent Manifestations.
However the Bab, had multiple Missions. In the beginning of His mission, He started preaching the Quran, in the same way that Jesus, in the beginning was teaching Torah as a Jew. In the later part of their mission, they broke away from the older Religion, and established an independent Faith. So, it could be said that, in the beginning, the Bab or Jesus were still a successor of previous Dispensation, yet, later they broke away.

What does it mean to break away?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What does it mean to break away?

During a Dispensation, all are judged according to their obedience to the latest Manifestation. For example, when Moses revealed Torah, all were subordinate to Moses, and were to obey Him and His Laws. Thus all minor Prophets such as Solomon or David, who appeared after Moses were followers of Moses and were promoting His Religion . But once Jesus came, He was no longer obedient to the Religion of Moses, as He Himself was an independent Manifestation. In this sense, Jesus broke away from Moses Religion.
Likewises from the time of Jesus till Manifestation of Muhammad, there were about 600 years. During this period, all must have followed the Religion of Jesus, and be obedient to His Revelation. For example, if during this time, anyone still fillowed Moses, but disbelieved Jesus, and disobey Him, his deeds and works were not accepted in the Sight of God. However onece Muhammad came, He did not need to obey Jesus or His Laws Any longer. He did not owe any commitment or allegiance to Jesus, as Muhammad was Himself the New Law bringer and Revealer.
From the time of Muhammad till Manifestation of the Qaim, all, including the Infallible Imams, were subordinate to Muhammad. They all were to obey Muhammad the Messenger of God. But once Qaim comes, He is independent of Muhammad. He does not owe Muhammad or any Imams or past Prophets commitment or allegiance.

It is recorder in Bihar, Vol 51:

It is narrated from Kulaini from Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Husain bin Saeed from Ibne Abi Umair from Hisham bin Salim from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“The Qaim will rise while he does not owe anyone any commitment or allegiance.”

This is how Imams were alluding that the Qaim, is a bringer of a New Law, and does no longer follow the Law of Quran. It is time to change the Law, as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses and other Manifestations did. They break away from the ways of old, and brought a new set of teachings and laws suited for the New Period or Dispensation.

For example, you have heard in Hadithes that The Qaim kills the pig. From this, they meant to say, that, He will bring a new Law that allows killing pigs for eating, which is breaking the ways of Muhammad.


Abdullah bin Ataa that he said: I asked His Eminence, Abu Ja’far Baqir (a.s.): When Qaim (a.s.) reappears how would he behave among the people? He replied: “He would raze the foundations preceding him just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) had done and he would initiate Islam anew.”

In the same book Abu Khadija narrated from abu ‘Abdallah who has said the following.

"He said, when he was asked about Al-Qa’im, "We are all Al-Qa’im ((the one who will rise with Divine Authority) with the command of Allah one after the other until the time when the owner of the sword will rise. When the owner of the sword will rise he will rise with the command other than what it was."


Abu Khadija from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said: “When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”

 

[CG Didymus]

For example, you have heard in Hadithes that The Qaim kills the pig. From this, they meant to say, that, He will bring a new Law that allows killing pigs for eating, which is breaking the ways of Muhammad.

So, God Moses outlaw eating pigs. Then had Jesus make it okay to eat pigs. Then had Muhammad outlaw eating pigs. And now Baha'u'llah says it's okay to eat pigs? And isn't there something in the Baha'i writings about people being vegetarians in the future?

 

[Trailblazer]

And isn't there something in the Baha'i writings about people being vegetarians in the future?

In the book “Ten Days in the Light of Akka,” Julia Grundy recounted that when an early Baha'i asked Abdu'l-Baha, the son of the prophet and founder of the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah: “What will be the food of the future?” he said: “Fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten.Feb 21, 2017

The Baha'i Diet: Eating for Our Souls - BahaiTeachings.org​

 

[Link]

During a Dispensation, all are judged according to their obedience to the latest Manifestation. For example, when Moses revealed Torah, all were subordinate to Moses, and were to obey Him and His Laws. Thus all minor Prophets such as Solomon or David, who appeared after Moses were followers of Moses and were promoting His Religion . But once Jesus came, He was no longer obedient to the Religion of Moses, as He Himself was an independent Manifestation. In this sense, Jesus broke away from Moses Religion.
Likewises from the time of Jesus till Manifestation of Muhammad, there were about 600 years. During this period, all must have followed the Religion of Jesus, and be obedient to His Revelation. For example, if during this time, anyone still fillowed Moses, but disbelieved Jesus, and disobey Him, his deeds and works were not accepted in the Sight of God. However onece Muhammad came, He did not need to obey Jesus or His Laws Any longer. He did not owe any commitment or allegiance to Jesus, as Muhammad was Himself the New Law bringer and Revealer.
From the time of Muhammad till Manifestation of the Qaim, all, including the Infallible Imams, were subordinate to Muhammad. They all were to obey Muhammad the Messenger of God. But once Qaim comes, He is independent of Muhammad. He does not owe Muhammad or any Imams or past Prophets commitment or allegiance.

It is recorder in Bihar, Vol 51:

It is narrated from Kulaini from Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Husain bin Saeed from Ibne Abi Umair from Hisham bin Salim from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“The Qaim will rise while he does not owe anyone any commitment or allegiance.”

This is how Imams were alluding that the Qaim, is a bringer of a New Law, and does no longer follow the Law of Quran. It is time to change the Law, as Muhammad, Jesus, Moses and other Manifestations did. They break away from the ways of old, and brought a new set of teachings and laws suited for the New Period or Dispensation.

For example, you have heard in Hadithes that The Qaim kills the pig. From this, they meant to say, that, He will bring a new Law that allows killing pigs for eating, which is breaking the ways of Muhammad.


Abdullah bin Ataa that he said: I asked His Eminence, Abu Ja’far Baqir (a.s.): When Qaim (a.s.) reappears how would he behave among the people? He replied: “He would raze the foundations preceding him just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) had done and he would initiate Islam anew.”

In the same book Abu Khadija narrated from abu ‘Abdallah who has said the following.

"He said, when he was asked about Al-Qa’im, "We are all Al-Qa’im ((the one who will rise with Divine Authority) with the command of Allah one after the other until the time when the owner of the sword will rise. When the owner of the sword will rise he will rise with the command other than what it was."


Abu Khadija from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said: “When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”

Yahya (a) brought rituals though that previous Messengers/Prophets of Bani-Israel did not including Musa (a). They had to do with water. So it comes down to simply coming up with rules. If that's the case, then Yahya (a) did so as well. Why isn't he considered the next day of judgment? And so Isa (a) would have to be the day of judgment of Yahya (a) which Baha'allah did not state but stated he was of Musa (a).

Also per Quran, some of the Prophets (a) of Bani-Israel changed dietary laws because of the rebellion of Bani-Israel. So how come they aren't considered day of judgments?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yahya (a) brought rituals though that previous Messengers/Prophets of Bani-Israel did not including Musa (a). They had to do with water. So it comes down to simply coming up with rules. If that's the case, then Yahya (a) did so as well. Why isn't he considered the next day of judgment? And so Isa (a) would have to be the day of judgment of Yahya (a) which Baha'allah did not state but stated he was of Musa (a).

The mission of Yahya, was to prepare the way for Jesus. He was sent to announce that the Manifestation of Promised One is very near. This has been the way of God, that, just before the Manifestation of any of the Promised Ones, a person is inspired and sent to people to announce the news that the time is near. This happened before Muhammad, before Jesus, and before any other Manifestations.
Thus, in a sense, the mission of Yahya, is not separate from Jesus. The Baptism Ritual had its roots in Jewish Faith. Yahya just symbolically performed the Ritual on Jesus. But, He did not really change any Laws. Among the most important Laws, were the Law of Sabath. Jesus abolished the Law. Yahya did not abrigate any of Laws of Torah.

There must be always light and guidance on earth. But, as soon as the light disappears, God does not even wait an hour to send the next Manifestation. This is called the Last Hour.

"Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come." 1 John 2:18

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” John 11:25

Islam had its own Last Hour as well in Bahai View. It is when the Light and guidance disappeared from Islam. It is just at that time, that God sends a new Manifestation without an hour delay.

Also per Quran, some of the Prophets (a) of Bani-Israel changed dietary laws because of the rebellion of Bani-Israel. So how come they aren't considered day of judgments?

Can you please quote this from the Quran?

 

[Link]

Can you please quote this from the Quran?

Verse 6:146.

 

[Link]

This happened before Muhammad, before Jesus, and before any other Manifestations.

Who did it before Mohammad (s)?

 

[CG Didymus]

The mission of Yahya, was to prepare the way for Jesus. He was sent to announce that the Manifestation of Promised One is very near. This has been the way of God, that, just before the Manifestation of any of the Promised Ones, a person is inspired and sent to people to announce the news that the time is near. This happened before Muhammad, before Jesus, and before any other Manifestations.

And who did it for Krishna, Buddha, Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses? It's a nice thing to say. And it's a nice thing for Baha'is to believe, but as usual, is it true. Oh, and isn't there something about Elijah always come first? If so, then who did Elijah announce? Not Moses. Not Jesus.