Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[bahamut19]

Out of the millions of Baha'is in the world, how many know personally any of the men that got voted onto the UHJ? In the U.S., how many Baha'is personally know any of the people that got voted to be on the NSA well enough to know if they have those qualities? Same with the delegates... how many people know them personally? And how many people know of them or maybe heard them give a speech at a conference or something?

But I don't think the way campaigning done, especially in the U.S., is a good way to get to know a candidate either. It's way too easy to lie and make promises and tell people what they want to hear.

I think this helps further support trident765's argument that the Houses of Justice are only meant to be a local institution, not national or universal. Plus, Baha'u'llah never described a "spiritual assembly" or "administrative order."

The only time I can find anything resembling the word administration is here in the Lawh-i-Dunya (Tablet of the World) addressed to the Shah. The administration of creation is dependent on 5 commandments. 1) Ministers of the House of Justice implement the Most Great Peace, 2) Languages narrowed down to one and taught in schools around the world 3) Seek and adhere to means which lead to affection, love, and unity, 4) A portion of earnings go towards children's education, under the supervision of the House of Justice (local in each city), and 5) Utmost attention to agriculture.

If any LSA would desire to act as a House of Justice, maybe these 5 things should be the foundations upon which the Houses of Justice operate.

Nothing in the writings discuss how a person is appointed to serve on the House of Justice, but each one could probably determine which rules best suit its locality. It could be as simple as the members consult with each other and determine who is who. The number doesn't have to be limited to 9 and can be more, and the roles don't have to be merely that of a typical non-profit. They are to serve as Ministers and Trustees first and foremost. My prior LSA does not have a single Minister or Trustee, but there was a President, Secretary, Treasurer, etc. No Minister. No Trustee.
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From the Tablet of the World:

The Red Book (Kitab-i-Aqdas) is the Cause of the Elevation of Servants and Building of Countries​

It was revealed in the red book in the prison of Acre, which is the cause of the elevation of servants and the building of countries. Among these statements in it, which was revealed from the pen of the master of possibility: The greatest essence, the administration of creation, is related and dependent on it.

Five Commandments​

8 The first (commandment) is that the Ministers of the House of Justice must implement the Most Great Peace, so that the world can be freed from exorbitant expenses. This clause is necessary and obligatory as war and contention are the essence of trouble and hardship.

9 The second (commandment) is that languages must be narrowed down to one language, and this language should be taught in schools around the world.

10 The third (commandment) is that one should seek and adhere to the means that lead to affection, love, and unity.

11 The fourth (commandment) is that all men and women should dedicate a portion of their earnings from various activities such as trade, agriculture, and other works for the education and upbringing of children. This amount should be entrusted to a reliable entity and spent for the children’s education under the supervision of the House of Justice.

12 The fifth (commandment) is to give utmost attention to agriculture. Although this point is mentioned as the fifth, it indeed holds the foremost place.

 

[bahamut19]

Yes, you quoted the relevant part of the document already. This is not the Tablet that Adib Taherzadeh was describing. This is a different Tablet. But I don't expect you to believe me.

What's the Tablet called?

 

[danieldemol]

I do not expect people who want to negate the faith, will see it in this light.

Dishonest polemics in my view Tony,
Those who are looking to do honest exegesis which requires considering the context are not people who "want to negate the faith".

Unitarian Baha'i believe in the faith of Baha'u'llah so your accusation of everyone who disagrees with you is ridiculous as I see it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Are people that join these other alternative Baha'i groups considered covenant-breakers? I would hope not, because I'd imagine some of them learned about the Baha'i Faith from them first and never got the "Haifan" Baha'i story. And if they are going to be "shunned" by the Haifans, they never will.

I don't think they are Covenant-Breakers as Unitarian Bahja'is or sympathetic to Unitarian Baha'is, but I don't really know. These guys certainly have considered the Haifan position it appears to me. To be declared a Covenant-Breaker usually a Baha'is tries to dissuade them. I don't know about cases where Baha'is never knew these people as "Haifan" Baha'is. I Imagine that happens. They could slip through the cracks. However, "Haifan" Baha'is have no way of knowing when a member of Covenant Breaker group is in that position, so they need to careful and avoid all of them. Those who are ignorant of the "Haifan" Baha'is when joining these groups I would think would not be low on the spiritual totem pole like those who were recruited from "Haifan" Baha'is, then had learned people try to persuade them of their error. I have no idea how many such people there are.

 

[Truthseeker]

Out of the millions of Baha'is in the world, how many know personally any of the men that got voted onto the UHJ? In the U.S., how many Baha'is personally know any of the people that got voted to be on the NSA well enough to know if they have those qualities? Same with the delegates... how many people know them personally? And how many people know of them or maybe heard them give a speech at a conference or something?

But I don't think the way campaigning done, especially in the U.S., is a good way to get to know a candidate either. It's way too easy to lie and make promises and tell people what they want to hear.

It is the members of the National Assemblies that elect UHJ members every 5 years. NSA members get around. Recently just about all of the new UHJ members have been on the International Teaching Center first. NSA members know these people by going on pilgrimage where the ITC members are, and the ITC members are in Haifa when the election occurs. The UHJ carefully considers who is on the ITC. They have to be have good character, be good teachers of the Baha'i Faith, and be learned in the Baha'i Faith. These are good qualities for a UHJ member to have. Someone on a NSA can be elected, and Shoghi Effendi lists the qualifications that should be considered for a NSA member, and the same applies for being elected to the UHJ. Often first a ITC member is first on an NSA before they are picked to be on the ITC. It is similar for getting on an NSA. A delegate may be elected who are supposed to have good qualities in the first place. A continental counselor ot Auxilairy Bord ember may be elected.

 

[Truthseeker]

None of us should be speaking any fault of any of Baha'u'llah's sons.

Unless they come out in the open as Covenant-Breakers and people need to be warned. That is a practical consideration. For a good amount of time Abdu'l-Baha didn't expose them, but then they exposed themselves, and He had to speak of them. The ring leaders were relatives.

I don't see where Baha'u'llah praised all of His sons, but He was careful of putting them down. He didn't want to do that. He also for a long time didn't speak ill of Mirza Yayha until Mirza Yayha openly challenged Him, and made a counterclaim, despite he had cause mischief for years before that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@bahamut19 provided the context. When Baha'u'llah said avoid those who do not believe me, preserve strict guard over thyself, turn away from them He was addressing a king and talking about the affairs of the state.

the context is irrelevant. only what your messenger of allah on the direction of allah said is relevant and clear. he said 'avoid those who do not believe in me'. is your allah or your messenger of allah double faced/tongued that he would say one thing at one time and the opposite at another time? are they 'munafiqun' (opportunists, hypocrites)?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think this helps further support trident765's argument that the Houses of Justice are only meant to be a local institution, not national or universal. Plus, Baha'u'llah never described a "spiritual assembly" or "administrative order."

The only time I can find anything resembling the word administration is here in the Lawh-i-Dunya (Tablet of the World) addressed to the Shah. The administration of creation is dependent on 5 commandments. 1) Ministers of the House of Justice implement the Most Great Peace, 2) Languages narrowed down to one and taught in schools around the world 3) Seek and adhere to means which lead to affection, love, and unity, 4) A portion of earnings go towards children's education, under the supervision of the House of Justice (local in each city), and 5) Utmost attention to agriculture.

If any LSA would desire to act as a House of Justice, maybe these 5 things should be the foundations upon which the Houses of Justice operate.

Nothing in the writings discuss how a person is appointed to serve on the House of Justice, but each one could probably determine which rules best suit its locality. It could be as simple as the members consult with each other and determine who is who. The number doesn't have to be limited to 9 and can be more, and the roles don't have to be merely that of a typical non-profit. They are to serve as Ministers and Trustees first and foremost. My prior LSA does not have a single Minister or Trustee, but there was a President, Secretary, Treasurer, etc. No Minister. No Trustee.
---------------------------------------
From the Tablet of the World:

The Red Book (Kitab-i-Aqdas) is the Cause of the Elevation of Servants and Building of Countries​

It was revealed in the red book in the prison of Acre, which is the cause of the elevation of servants and the building of countries. Among these statements in it, which was revealed from the pen of the master of possibility: The greatest essence, the administration of creation, is related and dependent on it.

Five Commandments​

8 The first (commandment) is that the Ministers of the House of Justice must implement the Most Great Peace, so that the world can be freed from exorbitant expenses. This clause is necessary and obligatory as war and contention are the essence of trouble and hardship.

9 The second (commandment) is that languages must be narrowed down to one language, and this language should be taught in schools around the world.

10 The third (commandment) is that one should seek and adhere to the means that lead to affection, love, and unity.

11 The fourth (commandment) is that all men and women should dedicate a portion of their earnings from various activities such as trade, agriculture, and other works for the education and upbringing of children. This amount should be entrusted to a reliable entity and spent for the children’s education under the supervision of the House of Justice.

12 The fifth (commandment) is to give utmost attention to agriculture. Although this point is mentioned as the fifth, it indeed holds the foremost place.

in that case why do bahais have a universal house of justice if they were meant to be local? uhj must be disbanded. Who is the covenant breaker responsible for establishing the uhj?

as for the commandments, the 8th says that the most great peace must be established. now most great peace comes only when people accept bahaollah and follow what he said. but most people do not accept bahaollah. so how would the most great peace established? through the use of bahai militia?
same for languages. how will 1.434 million people of india with their 122 recognized languages abandon them to take up a new bahai language? it is not bahaollah's commandment. it is allah's commandment. then why did he allow so many languages to come up in the world?
in india emperor muhammad bin tughluq made it compulsory for the government and people of delhi to move to devagiri, 600 miles away, and after some time reversed his order and asked them to move back to delhi. thousand of people died in this journey. till today he is known as a mad sultan, and people who suggest bizzare schemes are ask if they are muhammad bin tughluk. is your allah too a mohammad bin tughluk?

 

[trident765]

It is the voters who decide who gets elected. It is true that incumbents usually get re-elected, partly because of their visibility, and partly because they had good qualities to begin with but that doesn't explain why new members are elected in the first place when a member dies, resigns from consideration, or moves out of the locality or country.

I think just because there is an election does not mean voters decide their leader. For example, imagine that 90% of Bahais hate a certain NSA member and want him unseated and replaced with just about anyone else. Even in this case he wouldn't be unseated, because there is no opposition leader for the 90% to unite around. What will end up happening is each of the 90% will vote for different people, and each person will get a miniscule amount of votes, whereas the 10% who support the incumbent will all vote for the incumbent and he will get the most votes, even though he is absolutely hated by the vast majority of Bahais.

In this case I wouldn't say that the Bahais chose their leader. Even though the overwhelming majority wanted someone else, they ended up with the same guy. You might say it is their fault for not being united enough to rally around a particular candidate. But we all know that any efforts to do this would be considered "campaigning".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are people that join these other alternative Baha'i groups considered covenant-breakers? I would hope not, because I'd imagine some of them learned about the Baha'i Faith from them first and never got the "Haifan" Baha'i story. And if they are going to be "shunned" by the Haifans, they never will.

If there is any group that is not of the name Baha'i, they were started by Covenant breakers.

Some people may have joined not being Covernant Breakers, that is why I asked the question of trident765. bahamut19 has informed us he has not been declared a Covenant Breaker.

To be a Covenant Breaker, one has to accept Baha'u'llah and become a Baha'i and then reject the Covernant. Only the Universal House of Justice will issue the verdict of Covenant Breaker. There are lesser sanctions.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, that was a reply to my question. Why is it "rubbish"? For me, whether from the top down or bottom up, leadership in any religion is going to have problems, because people aren't perfect. Things could get too authoritarian from the leaders at the top having too much power. But from the bottom up there might be people going off in some variation.

The problem is... there already is people breaking off in defiance. There might not be a better way to handle it, but "shunning" is not a good look for a religion that is trying to unite all people the world over... no matter what their prior beliefs might have been. So, what that shows those of us on the outside is that the Baha'i Faith is accepting of all people... as long as once they join, they believe and do as told. But, like I said, there might not be a better way... since the Baha'i Faith can't have people going off and starting their own sects.

It is rubbish as it attacks the honesty and pure motive of the Baha'i Faith.

The Covernant Breakers whole purpose is to initiate this distrust of a System given by Baha'u'llah, given under a signed and sealed Covernant.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unitarian Baha'i believe in the faith of Baha'u'llah so your accusation of everyone who disagrees with you is ridiculous as I see it.

The Faith given by Baha'u'llah has a clear and precise line of Authority. Baha'u'llah states that this Covenant was given to prevent schisms that all Faiths in the past suffered from. I can give that quote, but off to work now, have a great day.

It is not about me, they disagree with a strong and binding Covernant, one which we must embrace to start being a Baha'i.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

Baha'u'llah states that this Covenant was given to prevent schisms that all Faiths in the past suffered from. I can give that quote, but off to work now, have a great day.

There is no such quote in Baha'u'llah's writings. I would have known about it if there were. The reason you are not posting it is because you do not have it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no such quote in Baha'u'llah's writings. I would have known about it if there were. The reason you are not posting it is because you do not have it.

Firstly, you have not responded with a reply to confirm either way if you have been sanctioned as a Covernant Breaker, can you be honest about that?

As to your statement this is what Baha'u'llah asked of us

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good.... It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other....

So first is acceptance and then their is submission to all the ordinances given by Baha'u'llah, one of which is the Covernant.

Thus any Schism is abhorrent.

"They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples.... Hasten to drink your fill, O men of understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. “Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1982), Section CLV, pp. 330-31

".. ..Follow not, therefore, your earthly desires, and violate not the Covenant of God, nor break your pledge to Him. With firm determination, with the whole affection of your heart, and with the full force of your words, turn ye unto Him, and walk not in the ways of the foolish.... Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways..." “Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, Section CLIII, p. 328

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't think they are Covenant-Breakers as Unitarian Bahja'is or sympathetic to Unitarian Baha'is, but I don't really know. These guys certainly have considered the Haifan position it appears to me. To be declared a Covenant-Breaker usually a Baha'is tries to dissuade them. I don't know about cases where Baha'is never knew these people as "Haifan" Baha'is. I Imagine that happens. They could slip through the cracks. However, "Haifan" Baha'is have no way of knowing when a member of Covenant Breaker group is in that position, so they need to careful and avoid all of them. Those who are ignorant of the "Haifan" Baha'is when joining these groups I would think would not be low on the spiritual totem pole like those who were recruited from "Haifan" Baha'is, then had learned people try to persuade them of their error. I have no idea how many such people there are.

Thanks for the information in your other post too. For this one, this is similar to what Born-Again Christians face. They believe JW's, Mormons and others are in a false religion... Oh, and Baha'is too. But as we know and see every day here on the forum, it's pretty much an exercise in futility to try and persuade someone with strong beliefs in another religion to see things differently.

Even in the debate going on here, who's winning? Who is telling the truth? One group might have the truth but are terrible debaters and are not presenting very good arguments. Then to use our ex-president as an example... it doesn't matter what he says, his followers believe everything his says. Which kind of shows that a charismatic person just sounds like they must be telling the truth.

 

[trident765]

Firstly, you have not responded with a reply to confirm either way if you have been sanctioned as a Covernant Breaker, can you be honest about that?

No I have not been sanctioned as a Covenant Breaker. I don't think the UHJ has declared anyone a Covenant Breaker in the last decade.

As to your statement this is what Baha'u'llah asked of us

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good.... It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other....

So first is acceptance and then their is submission to all the ordinances given by Baha'u'llah, one of which is the Covernant.

Thus any Schism is abhorrent.

Unitarian Baha'is disagree that "The Covenant" as Haifan Bahais understand it is an ordinance of Baha'u'llah.

"They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples.... Hasten to drink your fill, O men of understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. “Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1982), Section CLV, pp. 330-31

".. ..Follow not, therefore, your earthly desires, and violate not the Covenant of God, nor break your pledge to Him. With firm determination, with the whole affection of your heart, and with the full force of your words, turn ye unto Him, and walk not in the ways of the foolish.... Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways..." “Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, Section CLIII, p. 328

Regards Tony

Even though these quotes contain the phrase "The Covenant", they are not about "The Covenant" as Haifan Bahais understand it. During Baha'u'llah's lifetime, he used the term "The Covenant" to refer to the idea that people had a duty to be ready to recognize the manifestation of God. I mean, this is why Baha'u'llah called the Azalis Covenant Breakers. The Azalis were following Azal, who the Bab legitimately appointed as his successor. And when Baha'u'llah made his claims, the Azalis rejected Baha'u'llah, instead opting to blindly follow Azal, because Azal was the legitimately appointed successor. This is why Baha'u'llah called the Azalis Covenant Breakers, because they blindly followed the successor and made no effort to recognize the manifestation of God for themselves. So in a way, the Haifan understanding of "The Covenant" is really the opposite of Baha'u'llah's Covenant.

After Baha'u'llah died, Abdul Baha redefined "The Covenant" to be about succession. If you read Baha'u'llah's quotes mentioning "The Covenant" in context, it's clear that none of them are about succession. In fact, Baha'u'llah attacks the concept of infallible succession in the Kitab i Badi. Which makes sense given that Baha'u'llah's enemies were the Azalis, who were loyal to Azal, the legitimately appointed successor of the Bab.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Out of the millions of Baha'is in the world, how many know personally any of the men that got voted onto the UHJ? In the U.S., how many Baha'is personally know any of the people that got voted to be on the NSA well enough to know if they have those qualities? Same with the delegates... how many people know them personally? And how many people know of them or maybe heard them give a speech at a conference or something?

But I don't think the way campaigning done, especially in the U.S., is a good way to get to know a candidate either. It's way too easy to lie and make promises and tell people what they want to hear.

There is absolutely no campaigning.

In the end, the system delivers the best of the best.

Thus a Baha'i at village level, who voted in spiritual reflection for the best in His community, knows that a selection of them will vote for the National Spiritual Assembly, and then all the National Spiritual Assemblies will vote for the best to serve on the Universal House of Justice.

Now as to what qualities are needed, there is ample guidance on this as well and every Baha'i is deepened on the required attributes of service.

We cannot expect perfection from an imperfect humanity, but we can do our best and that is all God asks of us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No I have not been sanctioned as a Covenant Breaker. I don't think the UHJ has declared anyone a Covenant Breaker in the last decade

Thank you, I am happy to discuss these matters, from the position of firmness in the given Covernant.

That firmness is based in Love of all humanity, inclusive of Covernant Breakers.

It is the action of rejection of a clear and precise Covernant that will attract a strong response.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

There is absolutely no campaigning.

In the end, the system delivers the best of the best.

Thus a Baha'i at village level, who voted in spiritual reflection for the best in His community, knows that a selection of them will vote for the National Spiritual Assembly, and then all the National Spiritual Assemblies will vote for the best to serve on the Universal House of Justice.

This system is called "Council Democracy", and it was used by the Soviets, and does not in practice deliver the best of the best:

Soviet democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unitarian Baha'is disagree that "The Covenant" as Haifan Bahais understand it is an ordinance of Baha'u'llah

There is nothing for me to discuss here.

The Covenant is clear. Not even the Covenant Breakers challenged the Appointment of Abdul'baha.

Therein lays the issue. Abdul'baha did not want power nor leadership, nor things of this world. Abdul'baha always gave.

The history shows what the Covernant Breakers wanted and the hell they put Abdul'baha through in thier desires to get hold of power, influence and money.

Regards Tony