Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[danieldemol]

Good morning everyone.

I have invited (with their permission) a member of the Baha'i Faith loyal to the Universal House of Justice based in Haifa (represented unofficially by Trailblazer) to discuss the Baha'i Covenant of Baha'u'llah with a Baha'i from outside the Haifa based group (represented unofficially by trident765).

Without further ado a warm welcome to @trident765 and @Trailblazer

 

[danieldemol]

Here are some beginning questions for all parties to kick the discussion off;

1. What do you see as the key features of the Kitab-i-Ahd (Book of Baha'u'llah's Covenant)?

2. How do you view the (alleged) infallibility of Abdul-Baha? How is it seen by other members of your group?

3. Does your group simply go by the name "Baha'i" or do you have other names to differentiate it from other Baha'i groups?

4. Are all Houses of Justice equal in your Baha'i group?

5. Do you have a living guardian (and do you even see one as necessary)?

 

[trident765]

Here are some beginning questions for all parties to kick the discussion off;

1. What do you see as the key features of the Kitab-i-Ahd (Book of Baha'u'llah's Covenant)?

2. How do you view the (alleged) infallibility of Abdul-Baha? How is it seen by other members of your group?

3. Does your group simply go by the name "Baha'i" or do you have other names to differentiate it from other Baha'i groups?

4. Are all Houses of Justice equal in your Baha'i group?

5. Do you have a living guardian (and do you even see one as necessary)?

1. Baha'u'llah discusses several things in the Kitab i Ahd, but successorship is the most important. He says after he dies to turn to Abdul Baha, and then to Mirza Muhammad Ali (the founder of Unitarian Baha'ism) after him.

2. Not only does Baha'u'llah never grant Abdul Baha infallibility, but he also actively denies it in at least two writings I can think of. First, in the Kitab i Aqdas Baha'u'llah says "He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause [i.e. Baha'u'llah] hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility." And in the Kitab i Badi Baha'u'llah says "none but God knoweth the meaning of His words, unlike what some have attributed without permission to the Branches of the Divine Tree." (Note that throughout his writings Baha'u'llah referred to himself as the Divine Tree, and his sons as the Branches.)

3. Unitarian Bahai.

4. Only the Local House of Justice (AKA the Local Spiritual Assembly) is referred to in Baha'u'llah's writings, so it is the only House of Justice with any scriptural authority. The UHJ and NSA have no basis in Baha'u'llah's writings.

5. No

 

[danieldemol]

Hi @Trailblazer as per your request you have been tagged for consideration of the points raised in post #3 above.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi @Trailblazer as per your request you have been tagged for consideration of the points raised in post #3 above.

Thanks, I'll take a look at those points tomorrow. I am dead tired tonight.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here are some beginning questions for all parties to kick the discussion off;

1. What do you see as the key features of the Kitab-i-Ahd (Book of Baha'u'llah's Covenant)?

I am not as familiar as I should be with this, so I will pass for now.

2. How do you view the (alleged) infallibility of Abdul-Baha? How is it seen by other members of your group?

I do not believe that Abdu'l-Baha is infallible, although other Baha'is believe he is.

3. Does your group simply go by the name "Baha'i" or do you have other names to differentiate it from other Baha'i groups?

We go by the name Baha'i.

4. Are all Houses of Justice equal in your Baha'i group?

There is only one House of Justice in the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

5. Do you have a living guardian (and do you even see one as necessary)?

No, there is no living guardian in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Baha'u'llah discusses several things in the Kitab i Ahd, but successorship is the most important. He says after he dies to turn to Abdul Baha, and then to Mirza Muhammad Ali (the founder of Unitarian Baha'ism) after him.

Can you cite where in the Kitab i Ahd Baha'u'llah grants successorship to Mirza Muhammad Ali after Abdu'l-Baha?

 

[trident765]

Can you cite where in the Kitab i Ahd Baha'u'llah grants successorship to Mirza Muhammad Ali after Abdu'l-Baha?

"O My Branches! In this Existent Being the greatest strength and the most perfect power is hidden and concealed; look towards It and gaze in the direction of Its union and not at Its seeming differences. This is the Testament of God that the Branches, Twigs, and Relations must each and every one look to the Greatest Branch.* Reflect upon that which is revealed in My Book, the Aqdas: “When the Ocean of My Presence hath disappeared and the Book of Origin is achieved to the end, turn your faces towards Him whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Pre-Existent Root.” The aim of this blessed verse hath been the Greatest Branch. We have likewise elucidated the Command as a favor from before Us; and I am the Generous, the All-Giving!

Verily, God hath ordained the station of the Greater Branch after the station of the former. Verily, He is the Ordainer, the Wise. We have surely chosen the Greater after the Greatest as a Command from the All-Knowing, the Omniscient!"

Baha'i Scriptures; chapter 6

"Greatest Branch" being translated from "Ghusn i Azam", which was Baha'u'llah's title for Abdul Baha, and "Greater Branch" from "Ghusn i Akbar", which was Baha'u'llah's translation for Mirza Muhammad Ali.

 

[trident765]

There is only one House of Justice in the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

"The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá" --Kitab i Aqdas, Paragraph 30

 

[Trailblazer]

"The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá" --Kitab i Aqdas, Paragraph 30

There will be more Houses of Justice in the future but my answer reflected the present time.

 

[trident765]

There will be more Houses of Justice in the future but my answer reflected the present time.

If the Kitab i Aqdas instructs to build a House of Justice then why don't Bahais have more than one House of Justice in the present?

 

[Trailblazer]

If the Kitab i Aqdas instructs to build a House of Justice then why don't Bahais have more than one House of Justice in the present?

Because they have not been built yet.
Lots of things that "the Lord hath ordained" have not yet come to pass.

For example:

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed, therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.”

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 91-92

 

[trident765]

Because they have not been built yet.
Lots of things that "the Lord hath ordained" have not yet come to pass.

It has been 150 years since the Aqdas was written. The official figures are that there are 6 million Bahais in the world. You don't find it odd that after all these years these people are not organizing into Houses of Justice like the Kitab i Aqdas instructs?

 

[Trailblazer]

It has been 150 years since the Aqdas was written. The official figures are that there are 6 million Bahais in the world. You don't find it odd that after all these years these people are not organizing into Houses of Justice like the Kitab i Aqdas instructs?

No, I do not find that odd at all. Baha'is are busy with community building.

"The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá" --Kitab i Aqdas, Paragraph 30

That is not an instruction from Baha'u'llah. It is what God has ordained, so we know it will happen, we just don't know when.

 

[trident765]

No, I do not find that odd at all. Baha'is are busy with community building.

"The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá" --Kitab i Aqdas, Paragraph 30

That is not an instruction from Baha'u'llah. It is what God has ordained, so we know it will happen, we just don't know when.

A note on terminology: The phrase "community building" in Haifan Baha'i lingo refers to group study of the UHJ's Ruhi books. It does not refer to actual building of communities, as evidenced by the fact that there aren't any real Bahai communites in the world (that is, communities that are composed of Bahais). Ishqabad was a real Bahai community, but that community has died, and no comparable Bahai communities have emerged ever since.

Actual community building involves establishing the Houses of Justice like the Kitab i Aqdas says, letting the members be shepherds of their local community like the Kitab i Aqdas says, enforcing the laws of the Kitab i Aqdas, and creating new laws for the benefit of their local community. This is how Baha'u'llah intended for Bahais to govern their communities, which is why he wrote this in his most holy book. The fake community building stuff that Haifan Bahais practice, with clusters and Ruhi books, is getting Bahais nowhere, because it was not ordained by God. And until Bahais start following the Kitab i Aqdas, they will continue to get nowhere.

 

[Trailblazer]

A note on terminology: The phrase "community building" in Haifan Baha'i lingo refers to group study of the UHJ's Ruhi books.

What are the community building activities in Baháʼí Faith?

Aspects of Bahá'í community building are forming and consolidating Local Spiritual Assemblies, observing the Nineteen Day Feast, holding reflection meetings, establishing and propagating core activities, and launching social and economic development projects. Jan 4, 2023

Community building - Bahaipedia​

It does not refer to actual building of communities, as evidenced by the fact that there aren't any real Bahai communites in the world (that is, communities that are composed of Bahais).

The Bahá'í community is organized through local, national, continental, and international institutions whose purpose is to channel energies into patterns of action that promote the betterment of society.

The Institutions | Essential Relationships | What Bahá'ís Believe​

Actual community building involves establishing the Houses of Justice like the Kitab i Aqdas says, letting the members be shepherds of their local community like the Kitab i Aqdas says, enforcing the laws of the Kitab i Aqdas, and creating new laws for the benefit of their local community.

That will be part of community building in the future.

This is how Baha'u'llah intended for Bahais to govern their communities, which is why he wrote this in his most holy book.

But Baha'u'llah never said when that would happen.

The fake community building stuff that Haifan Bahais practice, with clusters and Ruhi books, is getting Bahais nowhere, because it was not ordained by God. And until Bahais start following the Kitab i Aqdas, they will continue to get nowhere.

I can agree that these practices are getting Baha'is nowhere, but the reason is not because they are not doing what you think they should be doing.
The reason Baha'is are getting nowhere is because they are not doing what Baha'u'llah has enjoined them to do, teach the Faith.
Instead, they are doing community building.

“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 278

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can agree that these practices are getting Baha'is nowhere, but the reason is not because they are not doing what you think they should be doing.
The reason Baha'is are getting nowhere is because they are not doing what Baha'u'llah has enjoined them to do, teach the Faith.
Instead, they are doing community building.

One can consider that community building is faith in action, thus teaching without the words, but in practice.

This is the way that Abdul-Baha taught, he was the first to practice all that he offered in words.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

What are the community building activities in Baháʼí Faith?

Aspects of Bahá'í community building are forming and consolidating Local Spiritual Assemblies, observing the Nineteen Day Feast, holding reflection meetings, establishing and propagating core activities, and launching social and economic development projects. Jan 4, 2023

Community building - Bahaipedia​

Most of these boil down to Ruhi books. Cluster Reflection are meta-Ruhi gatherings where Bahais discuss plans to do Ruhi books. Nineteen Day Feasts are basically the same these days, with the long letters that are read from the UHJ about Ruhi/Institute Process. Core activities are a synonym for Ruhi books. "Social and economic development projects" in Haifan Bahai terminology means doing Ruhi books in poor neighborhoods.

The Bahá'í community is organized through local, national, continental, and international institutions whose purpose is to channel energies into patterns of action that promote the betterment of society.

The Institutions | Essential Relationships | What Bahá'ís Believe​

The Haifan Bahai community is organized by the appointed arm of UHJ, the appointees being complete sycophants to the UHJ, and who see their job as being to carry out verbatim the slightest whims of the UHJ. The locally elected institutions rarely deviate from the bidding of the UHJ, or make any kind of independent initiative, because they are brainwashed into trusting the appointed arm. The result is the entire global Haifan Bahai community is centrally run, by a UHJ that is unable to see the problems of individual local Bahai communities.

That will be part of community building in the future.

But Baha'u'llah never said when that would happen.

It will never happen for as long as the masses of Bahais remain loyal to the UHJ. And therefore, until a significant portion of Bahais start rejecting the UHJ, the Bahai Faith will continue to die.

I can agree that these practices are getting Baha'is nowhere, but the reason is not because they are not doing what you think they should be doing.
The reason Baha'is are getting nowhere is because they are not doing what Baha'u'llah has enjoined them to do, teach the Faith.
Instead, they are doing community building.

“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 278

Baha'u'llah does instruct his followers to Teach the Faith, or in more blunt terminology, proselytize. But it is not the only thing he instructed, as many Bahais seem to think, and lack of it is not the reason for the Bahai Faith's current decline. Indeed, Orthodox Jews do zero outreach, and they are not declining, in fact they are one of the fastest growing religions. When I brought up this example with local Haifan Bahais, they ridiculed me, saying that Orthodox Jews grow by birthrates, and that growth by birthrates is not a legitimate form of growth. This just shows how far Haifan Bahais deviate from Baha'u'llah, because in the Kitab i Aqdas Baha'u'llah says "Marry, O people, that there may come from you (be born of you) those who will make mention of Me among My creatures".

The Bahai Faith is declining due to bad administration and leadership, and so they try to compensate for this decline by focusing all their efforts on outreach. This is akin to customers abandoning a restaurant because the restaurant's refrigerator is broken, resulting in rotten food, so instead of fixing the broken refrigerator the restaurant tries to compensate by focusing all its efforts on advertising, in an effort to bring in new customers. A losing strategy in the long term.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not believe that Abdu'l-Baha is infallible, although other Baha'is believe he is.

This is a topic that Abdul-Baha has explained in detail, no need to repeat that here.

I would.offer a link to some quotes where Baha'u'llah mentions how Abdul-Baha is part of the given Covernant and His Station within that Covernant

‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in the words of Bahá’u’lláh

The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

www.bahai.org

The Tablet of the Branch will be rejected by Covernant Breakers, as it destroys all the foundation of their position.

All I can offer is, that the Tablet of the Branch is no doubt about Abdul-Baha and those that do embrace Baha'u'llah, will see why it is about Abdul-Baha, when they read what else Baha'u'llah offered about Abdul-Baha. Then we can see the life of Abdul-Baha, and also consider what Abdul-Baha saw that Station was.

He chose his own Name so people would not make him and stop making him, a Messenger of God.

"My name is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. My qualification is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. My reality is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. My praise is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Thraldom to the Blessed Perfection is my glorious and refulgent diadem, and servitude to all the human race my perpetual religion . .. No name, no title, no mention, no commendation have I, nor will ever have, except ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. This is my longing. This is my greatest yearning. This is my eternal life. This is my everlasting glory."

('Abdu'l-Bahá , which means “Servant of Bahá ”)

Wheras the Covernant Breakers wanted that recognition. They wanted a station that was not given to them, a station their own lives held them from attaining.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

One can consider that community building is faith in action, thus teaching without the words, but in practice.

Maybe that's true, but the numbers show that it is not working very well.

“Wherefore, O ye beloved of God, offer up thanks that ye have, in the day of the dawning, turned your faces unto the Light of the World and beheld its splendours. Ye have received a share of the light of truth, ye have enjoyed a portion of those blessings that endure forever; and therefore, as a returning of thanks for this bounty, rest ye not for a moment, sit ye not silent, carry to men’s ears the glad tidings of the Kingdom, spread far and wide the Word of God.”
Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 33-34