Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[TransmutingSoul]

This system is called "Council Democracy", and it was used by the Soviets, and does not in practice deliver the best of the best:

Soviet democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That is not correct.

The Baha'i system may reflect some of the good aspects of the many systems, but it is not defined by any of them.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

There is nothing for me to discuss here.

The Covenant is clear. Not even the Covenant Breakers challenged the Appointment of Abdul'baha.

Therein lays the issue. Abdul'baha did not want power nor leadership, nor things of this world. Abdul'baha always gave.

The history shows what the Covernant Breakers wanted and the hell they put Abdul'baha through in thier desires to get hold of power, influence and money.

Regards Tony

Abdul Baha has long been dead, so why is his appointment still relevant? The most recently alive person Baha'u'llah named as his successor in the Kitab i Ahd was Mirza Muhammad Ali, and once Abdul Baha died and Mirza Muhammad Ali became the successor, Mirza Muhammad Ali nullified all the successions Abdul Baha decreed and nullified the institutions Abdul Baha created. So I fail to see how Abdul Baha's appointment is still relevant. Abdul Baha was a leader for his time, but today we are not bound by his words.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abdul Baha has long been dead, so why is his appointment still relevant? The most recently alive person Baha'u'llah named as his successor in the Kitab i Ahd was Mirza Muhammad Ali, and once Abdul Baha died and Mirza Muhammad Ali became the successor, Mirza Muhammad Ali nullified all the successions Abdul Baha decreed and nullified the institutions Abdul Baha created. So I fail to see how Abdul Baha's appointment is still relevant. Abdul Baha was a leader for his time, but today we are not bound by his words.

Abdu'l-Baha also gave a Covernant as the appointed interpreter of the Message the Bab and Baha'u'llah and under the full Authority invested to him by Baha'u'llah. Abdu'l-Baha appointed Shoghi Effendi, clear, precise and not able to be refuted. That is why the Baha'i world turned to Shoghi Effendi.

Mirza Muhammad Ali disqualified himself from being appointed. The actions of Mirza Muhammad Ali were atrocious and confirmed in writing by another relative, who confessed to the shenanigans.

One needs to read and study this history, it is all recorded. Mirza Muhammad Ali failed miserably to live the life required of an appointed interpreter of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh. The rest is history, he died a miserable and infamous death both spiritual and material.

Abdu'l-Baha was buried in a manner befitting His service to humanity. A Shrine applicable to his serviceo is now being erected. The memory of Mirza Muhammad Ali will always be carried forth as a warning about the power of the Covenant.

I wish you all the best. Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

the context is irrelevant. only what your messenger of allah on the direction of allah said is relevant and clear. he said 'avoid those who do not believe in me'. is your allah or your messenger of allah double faced/tongued that he would say one thing at one time and the opposite at another time? are they 'munafiqun' (opportunists, hypocrites)?

The context is very relevant and clear. He was addressing a king, not the Baha'is.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For this particular Covenant you believe in, did Baha'u'llah ever rule a person to be in violation of it, and told believers to shun this person?

Generally, Baha'u'llah left everything to UHJ to lead Baha'is of the World:

42
"Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghṣán, and after them to the House of Justice—should it be established in the world by then"

Baha'u'llah, Kitabi Aghdas

From this verse it is clear what Baha'u'llah had in mind. After He passes away, First, there will be a period of Aghsan (Branches), and then after them, UHJ will have Authority. The Term Aghsan means, offsprings of Baha'u'llah.
Aghsán - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

"All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book." Baha'u'llah

 

[trident765]

Generally, Baha'u'llah left everything to UHJ to lead Baha'is of the World:

42
"Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghṣán, and after them to the House of Justice—should it be established in the world by then"

Baha'u'llah, Kitabi Aghdas

That is an egregiously bad translation. See it side by side with the Earl Elder translation and the original Arabic, paragraph 42:

Kitab-i-Aqdas/Template - Baha'i Writings Collaborative Translation Wiki

www.hgworld.org

The simplest way for the lay person to see just how bad this translation is is to try to look for a word that corresponds to "world" in the original Arabic. There isn't one.

The House of Justice is not established "in the world", it is established "in the lands". If this verse is about the UHJ, then how can a singular institution be established "in the lands" (plural)?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That is an egregiously bad translation. See it side by side with the Earl Elder translation and the original Arabic, paragraph 42:

Kitab-i-Aqdas/Template - Baha'i Writings Collaborative Translation Wiki

www.hgworld.org

The simplest way for the lay person to see just how bad this translation is is to try to look for a word that corresponds to "world" in the original Arabic. There isn't one.

The House of Justice is not established "in the world", it is established "in the lands". If this verse is about the UHJ, then how can a singular institution be established "in the lands" (plural)?

It doesn't say "in the lands", it says "in the land", which is singular. So, this verse is not about Houses of Justice in the Lands, it is about a particular House of Justice in the Land. By the land, He may have referred to the Holy Land, which was the Land Baha'u'llah was living at the time.

The idea that after Baha'u'llah there isnt an infallible interpreter is not compatible with Baha'u'llah's view on previous Faiths. Baha'u'llah comfirmed that, after Muhammad there were 12 Infallible Imams. He frequently quoted from Imams in Iqan. Now to say, after Baha'u'llah there werent any infallible successors, is just not compatible with the way Baha'u'llah depicted the way God does things. Whenever God reveals a Holy Book, He also appointed or inspired other prophets or Imams to interpret and expain the Book. This is exactly what happend in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[danieldemol]

The idea that after Baha'u'llah these isnt an infallible interpreter is not compatible with Baha'u'llah's view on previous Faiths. Baha'u'llah comfirmed that, after Muhammad there were 12 Infallible Imams. He frequently quoted from Imams in Iqan. Now to say, after Baha'u'llah there werent any infallible successors, is just not compatible with the way Baha'u'llah depicted the way God does things. Whenever God reveals a Holy Book, He also appointed or inspired other prophets or Imams to interpret and expain the Book. This is exactly what happend in the Baha'i Faith.

Who are the divinely appointed imams and Prophets who came after Baha'u'llah in the (Haifa based) Baha'i faith?

My understanding is that Abdul-Baha said he is not a prophet (nabi?) And that there are twenty-four holy souls in the Baha'i dispensation, not twelve like in Shia Islam. But I believe you only have 2 if you count Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and 52 if you count the hands of the cause in addition to Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who are the divinely appointed imams and Prophets who came after Baha'u'llah in the (Haifa based) Baha'i faith?

My understanding is that Abdul-Baha said he is not a prophet (nabi?) And that there are twenty-four holy souls in the Baha'i dispensation, not twelve like in Shia Islam. But I believe you only have 2 if you count Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and 52 if you count the hands of the cause in addition to Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

There are the Messengers of God who receive the Revelation from God.

There are the Lesser prophets who are gifted understanding by the Messengers.

There is a lot written on this topic.

A key here is that Abdul-Baha interpretation of His Statuon is that of Abdul-Baha, Servant of Baha.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

There are the Messengers of God who receive the Revelation from God.

There are the Lesser prophets who are gifted understanding by the Messengers.

There is a lot written on this topic.

A key here is that Abdul-Baha interpretation of His Statuon is that of Abdul-Baha, Servant of Baha.

Regards Tony

So there are 24 messengers of God in the Baha'i dispensation? How do you square that with the whole lying imposter thing?

 

[trident765]

It doesn't say "in the lands", it says "in the land", which is singular. So, this verse is not about Houses of Justice in the Lands, it is about a particular House of Justice in the Land. By the land, He may have referred to the Holy Land, which was the Land Baha'u'llah was living at the time.

The word is البلاد which according to Wiktionary is plural. Either way, it doesn't make much difference. The Authorized translation makes it seem like the verse implies the House of Justice is a singular institution. This implication does not exist in the original Arabic, whether it is "land" or "lands".

The idea that after Baha'u'llah there isnt an infallible interpreter is not compatible with Baha'u'llah's view on previous Faiths. Baha'u'llah comfirmed that, after Muhammad there were 12 Infallible Imams. He frequently quoted from Imams in Iqan. Now to say, after Baha'u'llah there werent any infallible successors, is just not compatible with the way Baha'u'llah depicted the way God does things. Whenever God reveals a Holy Book, He also appointed or inspired other prophets or Imams to interpret and expain the Book. This is exactly what happend in the Baha'i Faith.

"He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility." --Kitab i Aqdas, paragraph 47

 

[bahamut19]

That is not correct.

The Baha'i system may reflect some of the good aspects of the many systems, but it is not defined by any of them.

Regards Tony

In what specific way(s) do the current Haifan Bahai system differ from the Soviet council democracy?

 

[danieldemol]

The idea that after Baha'u'llah there isnt an infallible interpreter is not compatible with Baha'u'llah's view on previous Faiths. Baha'u'llah comfirmed that, after Muhammad there were 12 Infallible Imams. He frequently quoted from Imams in Iqan. Now to say, after Baha'u'llah there werent any infallible successors, is just not compatible with the way Baha'u'llah depicted the way God does things. Whenever God reveals a Holy Book, He also appointed or inspired other prophets or Imams to interpret and expain the Book.

I thought of another question, does this mean that you as a Baha'i loyal to the Haifa based Universal House of Justice believe that the disciples of Jesus where infallibles? Because if you don't then it looks hard to justify the argument that this is not consistent with how Baha'u'llah saw previeous dispensations. On the other hand if you do then you presumably need some sort of quote from Baha'u'llah saying the disciples where infallible, so which is it?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The context is very relevant and clear. He was addressing a king, not the Baha'is.

context is irrelevant, whether he was addressing kings or commons. why at all he advised the person to keep away from people from all those who do not accept him, i.e., all people in the world except the bahais?

 

[bahamut19]

Generally, Baha'u'llah left everything to UHJ to lead Baha'is of the World:

42
"Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghṣán, and after them to the House of Justice—should it be established in the world by then"

Baha'u'llah, Kitabi Aghdas

From this verse it is clear what Baha'u'llah had in mind. After He passes away, First, there will be a period of Aghsan (Branches), and then after them, UHJ will have Authority. The Term Aghsan means, offsprings of Baha'u'llah.
Aghsán - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

"All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book." Baha'u'llah

What charity or charities does the UHJ give to? Amounts are welcome. I'm curious if the UHJ follows the Aqdas.

 

[bahamut19]

GPT4 says lands...

A Compilation of Baha’u’llah’s Writings - Kitab-i-Aqdas (The Holy Book)

bahaitranslationproject.netlify.app

Combine it with the Aqdas which also says established in every city.

It doesn't say "in the lands", it says "in the land", which is singular. So, this verse is not about Houses of Justice in the Lands, it is about a particular House of Justice in the Land. By the land, He may have referred to the Holy Land, which was the Land Baha'u'llah was living at the time.

The idea that after Baha'u'llah there isnt an infallible interpreter is not compatible with Baha'u'llah's view on previous Faiths. Baha'u'llah comfirmed that, after Muhammad there were 12 Infallible Imams. He frequently quoted from Imams in Iqan. Now to say, after Baha'u'llah there werent any infallible successors, is just not compatible with the way Baha'u'llah depicted the way God does things. Whenever God reveals a Holy Book, He also appointed or inspired other prophets or Imams to interpret and expain the Book. This is exactly what happend in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[bahamut19]

Who are the divinely appointed imams and Prophets who came after Baha'u'llah in the (Haifa based) Baha'i faith?

My understanding is that Abdul-Baha said he is not a prophet (nabi?) And that there are twenty-four holy souls in the Baha'i dispensation, not twelve like in Shia Islam. But I believe you only have 2 if you count Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and 52 if you count the hands of the cause in addition to Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Where do you get 24 holy souls?

 

[bahamut19]

context is irrelevant, whether he was addressing kings or commons. why at all he advised the person to keep away from people from all those who do not accept him, i.e., all people in the world except the bahais?

The Suriy-i-Muluk doesn't say that. Baha'u'llah is telling a king to shun ministers who wish to harm the citizens or the state. Baha'u'llah also says to be careful in who is appointed as ministers. The ministers weren't even following the law of the Quran, which Baha'u'llah pointed out in the same tablet.

Context is important. The problem is these arguments are what are included in Ruhi book 8, which distracts people from actually reading and understanding the revelation of Baha'u'llah. The Ruhi books take everything out of context.

 

[bahamut19]

It doesn't say "in the lands", it says "in the land", which is singular. So, this verse is not about Houses of Justice in the Lands, it is about a particular House of Justice in the Land. By the land, He may have referred to the Holy Land, which was the Land Baha'u'llah was living at the time.

The idea that after Baha'u'llah there isnt an infallible interpreter is not compatible with Baha'u'llah's view on previous Faiths. Baha'u'llah comfirmed that, after Muhammad there were 12 Infallible Imams. He frequently quoted from Imams in Iqan. Now to say, after Baha'u'llah there werent any infallible successors, is just not compatible with the way Baha'u'llah depicted the way God does things. Whenever God reveals a Holy Book, He also appointed or inspired other prophets or Imams to interpret and expain the Book. This is exactly what happend in the Baha'i Faith.

Bahaullah quotes Rumi, is Rumi infallible?
Using this argument, did Baha'u'llah ever quote Abdul-Baha?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This Wiki link describes Covenant Breakers.

Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good to note, that one is only a Covernant Breaker if they have been given that sanction.

In a letter to an individual dated 23 March 1975, the Universal House of Justice wrote:

"When a person declares his acceptance of Baháʼu'lláh as a Manifestation of God he becomes a party to the Covenant and accepts the totality of His Revelation. If he then turns round and attacks Baháʼu'lláh or the Central Institution of the Faith he violates the Covenant. If this happens every effort is made to help that person to see the illogicality and error of his actions, but if he persists he must, in accordance with the instructions of Baháʼu'lláh Himself, be shunned as a Covenant-breaker."

Regards Tony

How lovely. It's like the JWs and Scientologists.