Baha'i Haircut Law: Why Create a Law if your going to break it youself?

[Jumi]

Why would Muhammad be and exception?

I think you should ask the Sunnis who believe it and have made it known as a taboo. No wonder many of them consider you the heretics.

 

[Jumi]

If the response is logical I do care, however if a response doesn't make sense (in any debate with anybody), why should anyone care?

It is good to know that you consider scripture literally and in a way that leaves nothing to the believer's interpretation. Very helpful if anyone discusses any scripture you might use. Though you seem to like discussing other scriptures than yours this way.

 

[oldbadger]

I prefer to correct the propaganda, half truths and lies by presenting the facts as I see them.

When somebody posts up Bahai rules and limitations such as on here, you think that your best defence is replying with 'They're nasty to us in Iran, and you're an Iranian! Oh those nasty Muslims the things they do to us'..... kind of replies?

And, by the way, how did you discover that the OP is an Iranian Muslim? Did the OP tell you some lies about that?
And so, do you decide which bits are absolute truths and which bits are lies as suits your purpose?

Of course you will see it differently.

Too bloomin' right I see it differently.
And I'm not an Iranian Muslim........ I've just discovered enough dust under the rug to be in total mistrust now....

The Ottoman authorities arrested Bahá’u’lláh and His companions, most likely due to their becoming aware of Bahá’u’lláh’s claims to have a similar station to the Bab who claimed to be the promised Qa’im. The authorities had little regard for Bahá’u’lláh’s safety. A decree was read to the inhabitants of Akka that Bahá’u’lláh and His companions were the enemies of Islam. The party were deprived of food and water on arrival, most became sick and three died.

The above is not true Adrian, and I can tell you how I know that, an old untraveled man who knew almost nothing about Bahauallah or Turkish Rulers or Persians from so long ago.

1. I've read a little of the history about this rich, privileged, high status person with very powerful friends.

2.Adrian, these authorities were hard-as-nails, ruthless rulers. True, Adrian? And I'll tell you what they would have done to an determined Apostate seeking to introduce a whole new exclusive religion with its own laws and controls to undermine a Muslim Land.......... they'd most probably have killed him out of hand by any means and chucked him in a ditch. And that didn't happen.

And living in exile for safety with all one's servants and family is not a prison sentence.

Yeah..... I see it differently.

The last 40 years of Bahá’u’lláh’s life were in exile and/or prison. This began in 1852 with His being imprisoned for four months in the Siyal Chal for a crime He did not commit. He was released on condition that He never returned to Persia. It included 9 years within the confines of Akka from 1868 - 77.

The Bab wrote some very very extreme and anti-government stuff, and his followers were armed fighters who clashed with a killed government forces. No wonder they got chucked in a dungeon and taken out at intervals to be dispatched......... and it's no wonder (now) to me to read that Bahauallah got brought out safe and sound after being given a nasty shock treatment lesson.

Of course he was banned from Persia. You know, people who try to whip up anti-government stuff where I live get banned from here.

Eventually restrictions were eased when the authorities recognised the good character and innocence of the Baha’is.

What?! You think that shunning Islam and governments and writing what was no doubt considered to be heresy was innocent and good? When are you going to accept that Bahauallah survived very well with all of his entourage through extreme status, wealth, favour and connections?

It was a proverb of the time. The sanitation of the city was notoriously poor, even by nineteenth century standards.

London was probably worse Adrian!

You couldn't know, but the disgusting smogs of London drifting NE over the East End and Essex were so extreme that thousands died each year from them. As a teenager I experienced dirt-in-fog so thick that I could only just see my fingertips when outstretched on a damp calm morning over water and that is simple truth. So please don't tell us how dirty Akka was...... You know.....I'll bet Bahauallah had an upwind mansion to live in.

 

[oldbadger]

That is why I created the Baha'i Debating Practice list. Feel free to add anything to it that I missed:

Baha'i Debating Practices:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
7- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
8- If it doesn't refer to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic.
9- If it's not a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic you have an axe to grind.
10- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
11- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
12- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours (or whataboutism).
13- If everything else fails, an excuse will be found to somehow divert the discussion to Islam and Iran or blame them for everything.
14- It's all right to say bad things about the Muslim clergy because they refused to believe in Baha'u'llah and stood up against him.
15- Every barbaric act performed by the followers of the Bab was due to Islamic teachings.
16- Don't tell me what Baha'i is. After being a Baha'i for so and so years I would know better.
17- Baha’u’llah can bend his own laws and break them as he pleases because he was sent by God.
18- All unscientific statements of the leaders will be proven to be in conformity with science in the future.
19- Respectfully asks an irrelevant but seemingly relevant question to divert the discussion to something less problematic.
20- Problematic matters are referred to an indefinite time in the future. This takes two forms: a- The wisdom for so and so will become evident in the future. B- This law was intended to be implemented in the future or has been legislated for a future state of society.
21- Other problematic matters are justified by the claim that the UHJ needs to justify this… however the UHJ refuses to clarify the said matter.

I copied the whole list and filed it in my Bahai file of my Religion File. When I can I will see if it can be added to.....

Seekers of truth need you to stick around, Spirit_of_Dawn.

 

[oldbadger]

Well that's interesting. That the "diversity of religion should cease". What if it don't cease? Since, if the Baha'is ever become the majority, why wouldn't they impose "unity" of religious thought? Isn't that the kind of thing you've been saying all along?

Ok.......
But the real irritation is this Double-Talk such as:-
'Individual Investigation of Truth' surfaces as 'Institutional Indoctrination'

That's no good....

 

[danieldemol]

Given Hinduism’s (and Islam’s) history of gender inequality and discrimination against homosexuality that has been perpetuated over thousands of years its just another gratuitous and hypocritical swipe at the Baha’i Faith, nothing else.

Hinduism is a conglomerate of differing beliefs though, one cannot be bashed for something they don’t believe in.

Vinayaka doesn’t believe in the suppression of gay union and has made that clear, hence it is not hypocrisy on his part just because other people who share the name Hindu but have different beliefs on the matter would say/act differently.

 

[stvdv]

According to Baha'i law, shaving one's head and allowing hair to grow longer than the lobe of the ear is forbidden:
"Shave not your heads; God hath adorned them with hair, and in this there are signs from the Lord of creation to those who reflect upon the requirements of nature. He, verily, is the God of strength and wisdom. Notwithstanding, it is not seemly to let the hair pass beyond the limit of the ears. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Lord of all worlds." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i Aqdas)

Even my engineer teacher taught us "Not important what you learn ... much more important it is that you learn to discriminate and solve problems". So after all it's not only about Bahaullah's teaching IMO. It's more about developing discrimination and chose wisely rather than follow blindly. Bahaullah taught this by example,

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hinduism is a conglomerate of differing beliefs though, one cannot be bashed for something they don’t believe in.

Vinayaka is a Saivite Hindu, a religion he has chosen. I’m not aware of Saivite Hinduism as socially progressive in comparison to the rest of Hinduism.

Vinayaka doesn’t believe in the suppression of gay union and has made that clear, hence it is not hypocrisy on his part just because other people who share the name Hindu but have different beliefs on the matter would say/act differently.

I’m comparing Hinduism and the Baha’i Faith, not what one individual believes compared to the Baha’i Faith. We need to compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges. Of course there are liberals and conservatives in any faith, but that’s not the point.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for showing another contradiction in Baha'ism. In no other religious scripture have I encountered so much contradictions and statements that go against each other.

Why misinterpret to find malevolent intent when there is none? What does it mean to make religions one? It means to recognise all religions have the same source (God) therefore all religions are one. That is consistent with the Baha’i belief that Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh are all Manifestations of God.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hinduism is a conglomerate of differing beliefs though, one cannot be bashed for something they don’t believe in.

Vinayaka doesn’t believe in the suppression of gay union and has made that clear, hence it is not hypocrisy on his part just because other people who share the name Hindu but have different beliefs on the matter would say/act differently.

Thanks for the reasonable response. Clearly you've recognised the diversity that is Hinduism today. I would have the same types of discussions with people of other faiths here, and have had them with other Hindus. For example I engage ISKCON members if they have deceptive tactics in their proselytizing. The discussions here are mostly with Baha'i because they happen to be the ones on this forum willing to engage. I've also read of a few Baha'i folk who support gay rights to the fullest, but keep silent about it, so as to not rock the boat so to speak. There could even be one or two here. It is fine by me if an adherent of any faith only believes in 90% or less of the stuff, but sees the bigger picture as being overall conducive to his/her personal growth.

 

[Vinayaka]

With regard to hypocrisy, there are two ways to get rid of it. One is to change the words (beliefs) to suit the actions, and the other is to change the actions to accurately reflect said belief. As much as I abhored my Mormon missionary neighbours' proselytizing, at least they were honest enough to tell me that was what they did for a certain portion of the day. "We'd like to stay and visit, but we have to go proselytizing now." I can respect the honesty.

If the Baha'i were to say, "We have gender equality, except for with our highest level of administration," it would at least be honest. Of if they changed the action to allow women to sit on the UHJ, that too would eliminate hypocrisy.

Personally, I would never describe the genders as equal. That's like saying two religions are equal. They're obviously different. That, in no way means any disrespect, in either direction. I look at the soul, not the person, and the soul is genderless. So gender rarely comes into the mystic's POV at all.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I think you should ask the Sunnis who believe it and have made it known as a taboo. No wonder many of them consider you the heretics.

No real picture of Muhammad exists so I don't understand what Sunnis consider Taboo and what you're speaking about.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

It is good to know that you consider scripture literally and in a way that leaves nothing to the believer's interpretation. Very helpful if anyone discusses any scripture you might use. Though you seem to like discussing other scriptures than yours this way.

Interpret what you like, how you like. If I feel it needs to be debated I will debate it.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Why misinterpret to find malevolent intent when there is none? What does it mean to make religions one? It means to recognise all religions have the same source (God) therefore all religions are one. That is consistent with the Baha’i belief that Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh are all Manifestations of God.

Baha'u'llah: "all nations should become one in faith","diversity of religion should cease"
Adrian: "He means all religions have the same source."

Thanks for the clarification. If I were to accept your statements, it would mean Baha'u'llah had a serious linguistic/communication problem where he couldn't express what he meant using the correct words and statements.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If the Baha'i were to say, "We have gender equality, except for with our highest level of administration," it would at least be honest. Of if they changed the action to allow women to sit on the UHJ,

Hypocrisy would say you beleive in a Message but then could not and would not abide by the given Law or teaching. That would be saying you know more than the Messenger from God.

Faith is accepting God knows better and then submitting self to all Laws and teachings.

The wisdom can only then unfold.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for the clarification. If I were to accept your statements, it would mean Baha'u'llah had a serious linguistic/communication problem where he couldn't express what he meant using the correct words and statements.

As the Message of Baha'u'llah is clear as the noonday sun, I personally would look elswhere for any contradictions and that is at ones own self.

Peace be with you and all, regards Tony.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Bahá’u’lláh has taught;

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 214-215

In times past men have ruled over women because his more forceful and aggressive qualities, both physically and mentally. In this age the balance has shifted and qualities that women are strong in such as intuition and compassion are gaining ascendancy. So we live in a time more dominated by the feminine ideals.

The Baha’i institutions reflect that shift and we have over 20,000 assemblies both locally and internationally where women are well represented among men. This is in stark contrast to most faiths of the past that have been male dominated. So we have a massive change.

The Baha’is don’t hide that our international governing body consists of a body of nine men elected every five years by members of national spiritual assemblies, whose members are both men and woman. Whatever the reason Bahá’u’lláh indicated this institution should be men only has nothing to do with gender inequality, but most likely reflects the differences of function between men and woman. These differences are most pronounced when it comes to procreation and raising of children.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Bahá’u’lláh has taught;

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 214-215

In times past men have ruled over women because his more forceful and aggressive qualities, both physically and mentally. In this age the balance has shifted and qualities that women are strong in such as intuition and compassion are gaining ascendancy. So we live in a time more dominated by the feminine ideals.

The Baha’i institutions reflect that shift and we have over 20,000 assemblies both locally and internationally where women are well represented among men. This is in stark contrast to most faiths of the past that have been male dominated. So we have a massive change.

The Baha’is don’t hide that our international governing body consists of a body of nine men elected every five years by members of national spiritual assemblies, whose members are both men and woman. Whatever the reason Bahá’u’lláh indicated this institution should be men only has nothing to do with gender inequality, but most likely reflects the differences of function between men and woman. These differences are most pronounced when it comes to procreation and raising of children.

Men only, really... Sorry that's not OK. I'm a big fan of women in positions of leadership and as I understand it so is every other NON sexist institution in the world.

Sorry but the Bahai faith carries a load of destructive & toxic baggage over from its Islamic roots.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

If someone is offended by seeing their leaders picture then I have nothing else to say. I hear Baha'i statements that offend me, my religion, and my country on a daily basis, yet I don't act like a child and whine about it.

I suppose whining like a child would be kind of redundant considering your political leaders already execute Bahais and stop them from practicing their faith. I suppose such things are their way of responding to this offence you feel caused by the fact Bahais have the temerity to

1. Continue existing and;
2. Do to your religion what Islam has done to the likes of Christianity, Judaism & Zoroastrianism - i.e. baselessly claiming to replace them with a more up to date version.

So it turns out your faith isn't all that special and can be theologically supplanted just as easily as the faiths Islam seeks to supplant in turn.

How dare Bahais knock Islam off its pedestal?!

 

[Dawnofhope]

When somebody posts up Bahai rules and limitations such as on here, you think that your best defence is replying with 'They're nasty to us in Iran, and you're an Iranian! Oh those nasty Muslims the things they do to us'..... kind of replies?

And, by the way, how did you discover that the OP is an Iranian Muslim? Did the OP tell you some lies about that?
And so, do you decide which bits are absolute truths and which bits are lies as suits your purpose?

With any interfaith debate/discussion its reasonable that both parties are aware of the faith and ideology of the other. I’m open about being a Baha’i in the West who grew up in a country where Christianity is the main religion. Spirit of Dawn needs to be more open about being Shi’a Muslim from Iran where Baha’is are persecuted daily.

Every oppressive regime relies on distortion, propaganda and lies to further its agenda. It relies on denial and blaming the victim.

The above is not true Adrian, and I can tell you how I know that, an old untraveled man who knew almost nothing about Bahauallah or Turkish Rulers or Persians from so long ago.

1. I've read a little of the history about this rich, privileged, high status person with very powerful friends.

2.Adrian, these authorities were hard-as-nails, ruthless rulers. True, Adrian? And I'll tell you what they would have done to an determined Apostate seeking to introduce a whole new exclusive religion with its own laws and controls to undermine a Muslim Land.......... they'd most probably have killed him out of hand by any means and chucked him in a ditch. And that didn't happen.

And living in exile for safety with all one's servants and family is not a prison sentence.

Yeah..... I see it differently.

It is well known that Bahá’u’lláh was eventually released from the most desperate of circumstances in the Siyah Chal as a result of intervention from Russian diplomats who advocated for Bahá’u’lláh’s innocence.

Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

Bahá’u’lláh was offered asylum in Russia but declined. Beyond that, there is no basis that He was protected when exiled to the Ottoman Empire. The argument that He was moved to a prison in Akka during 1868 for nine years for His protection makes no sense. What is clear is from 1863 Bahá’u’lláh’s declaration as being the Promised One foretold by not only the Bab but of all the main religions was open. During His time in exile He started writing letters to the Kings and Rulers of the earth.

Summons of the Lord of Hosts - Wikipedia

The Bab wrote some very very extreme and anti-government stuff, and his followers were armed fighters who clashed with a killed government forces. No wonder they got chucked in a dungeon and taken out at intervals to be dispatched......... and it's no wonder (now) to me to read that Bahauallah got brought out safe and sound after being given a nasty shock treatment lesson.

Of course he was banned from Persia. You know, people who try to whip up anti-government stuff where I live get banned from here.

At least you have admitted Baha’u’llah was exiled or imprisoned from 1852.

You can blame the Babis for the Persians massacre and subsequent treatment of the Baha’is. It’s another topic and a great example of blaming the victims of tyranny and oppression. Start another thread about it if you want.

What?! You think that shunning Islam and governments and writing what was no doubt considered to be heresy was innocent and good? When are you going to accept that Bahauallah survived very well with all of his entourage through extreme status, wealth, favour and connections?

The Babi/Baha’i Faith withstood every attempt by the Persian and Ottoman Empires to eradicate it from the face of the earth for over 75 years, despite their full knowledge of the claims of both the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. This thread and the last seven threads from the same OP in the last 3 weeks is simply a continuation of efforts to quell the Baha’i Faith.

As Bahá’u’lláh famously said in His tablet to Ahmad;

Be a flame of fires to my enemies and a river of life eternal to my loved ones.

Tablet of Ahmad (Arabic) - Wikipedia