Bahai scholarship of all scripture

[stvdv]

I personally see Empathy for all humanity is a great virtue. Justice also a great virtue. Lasting change requires that we implement virtues and not wait for a better outcome.

History is built upon the people that sought and made change, be it for the better or worse, it was never built by going with the status quo.

The metephor of life is found in waters. The best most pristine life giving water is that that flows from the mountains, moving and turbulent. When it ponds it eventuall becomes stagnated, stagnated water then begins to poison.

Regards Tony

If I say "I don't worry" it just means "I don't worry"

That doesn't imply I don't do my utmost best to do good

Like the Bhagavad Gita's main Teaching learns us
"Do your best, and leave the fruits to God" (don't worry)

 

[firedragon]

What exactly do you mean by levels of hadith.

I said Thadhlees levels of ahadith. Not levels of hadith.

 

[firedragon]

If I appear ignorant sometimes, it is not because I have not read something, but because I have trouble retaining it.

You may misunderstand me. Thats fine.

But I can tell you very clearly, you have not read the book you quoted. I shall repeat the book name for the third time since you have missed it three different times. Moojan - Shii Islam.

This book is irrelevant. But I am only steel manning your own quotation.

the problem as I said Truthseeker is that many have read this book. And your own brothers in the Bahai faith introduced me to your faith years ago. I really cant remember but at least a year ago. So please dont guess that I have not read up on your theology like other Bahai's do. If you think this is fanfare so be it. But I do know you are a decent person and that is why I am saying this.

I say again. Do not drop a name or two brother. Engage with the discussion points. Do not get angry.

I am asking you since you bank on some books, and you quoted them. Especially the first book you quoted was the book on Shii Islam written by Moojan.

So please do tell me since you quoted it. What are the thadhlees levels of the ahadith he picked up information from for this book?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no criticism in any of them. None. So your post does not answer my question.

What criticism do you have of the Quran?

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Scholarship is not just "Interpretation based on my prevailing beliefs".

I agree, but you always start with your beliefs, it's unavoidable, and you modify them according to what you find in your investigation. That's the only way to go, in my opinion. I don't believe in trying to put your beliefs aside before you investigate as if they don't exist.

 

[Truthseeker]

But I can tell you very clearly, you have not read the book you quoted. I shall repeat the book name for the third time since you have missed it three different times. Moojan - Shii Islam.

If you are telling me that clearly, you are mistaken. You are clearly wrong. I am not a liar. I don't know if you are saying that, but something has gone wrong here.

I quit. I'm not talking to you any more. I can't reason with you. It's clear you only desire to win an argument. That's what debating and arguing is about, only winning.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is no criticism in any of them. None. So your post does not answer my question.

Moojan does not have a book of that nature anyway. Unless you could quote one for me.

Please explain with an example what you mean by criticism. Then I can try finding if there is a criticism in the sense you are referring.

But if I understand correctly what you mean by Criticism is, then to translate them into other languages, they must be doing criticism, right?
Or, for example, they authenticate texts. Meaning they find out if a Tablet was indeed written by Bahaullah or not.
Is this what you mean by criticism?

 

[Truthseeker]

I had to look up that word, and afterwards forget what it means, so have to look it up again (ad infinitum)

Apologetics is totally useless to me, because I believe all Religions can lead you to the Truth.

Apologetics is only useful to people who claim "My Way is the Highway" IMO

Apologetics is defending your religion from attack. It is not denying truths from other religions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think its too wide. And I am not speaking of scholars in the OP. I am specifically speaking about what Bahai scholarship is of the NT and the Quran. Not Scholars who are Bahai's.

Baha'u'llah asks all people to search for the truth themselves.

Thus I guess to define a Baha'i Scholar, it is a person that has accepted that challenge, as their goal is to find the Truth and all study is aimed at achieving that goal.

What we have to consider here is, that accepting a Message from God is only a single step, as the search for truth is endless.

Thus every Baha'i on that journey is still taking part in that scholarship and will be to the day they pass from this life. Some may be great scholars, some may not be so great, some may be poor, but they still took up the challenge.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

What criticism do you have of the Quran?

Regards Tony

Tu Quoque.

And for your information, though you are trying a logical fallacy, many criticisms of the Quran. Form criticism is one of them. Why not try searching within this forum itself?

If you cannot answer a question my friend, dont do a Tu Quoque. Bad habit.

 

[firedragon]

I agree, but you always start with your beliefs, it's unavoidable, and you modify them according to what you find in your investigation. That's the only way to go, in my opinion. I don't believe in trying to put your beliefs aside before you investigate as if they don't exist.

So, whats your ultimate point? You have said this same thing several times. Its irrelevant.

 

[Truthseeker]

Apologetics seems to be for people who feel they need to proselytize, because they need to talk others away from the Religion they now have, into the Religion of the proselytizer

No, as I said, it is defending your religion from attack, in my view, clearing up misconceptions and such. I don't see it as proselytizing. Proselytizing to be clear is defined by me to be trying to convince someone of a truth when the person you are taking to doesn't have a listening ear in the first place, in other words not open to the possibility that you might be saying something true. Of course they are free to further investigate. If I were to expect that a person would take my word for it that would be foolish of me and a wrong attitude by me.

 

[firedragon]

Please explain with an example what you mean by criticism.

Form criticism.

 

[firedragon]

No, as I said, it is defending your religion from attack, in my view, clearing up misconceptions and such. I don't see it as proselytizing. Proselytizing to be clear is defined by me to be trying to convince someone of a truth when the person you are taking to doesn't have a listening ear in the first place, in other words not open to the possibility that you might be saying something true. Of course they are free to further investigate. If I were to expect that a person would take my word for it that would be foolish of me and a wrong attitude by me.

The problem is, apologetics and proselytisation are mistakenly understood by the Bahais repeatedly as "scholarship".

Scholarship could be used for both of these, but that does not mean A and P is scholarship.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is most surprising to read.

Yes, it is.

 

[stvdv]

Apologetics is defending your religion from attack. It is not denying truths from other religions.

I know.

Nobody can attack my religion...it's my religion...they have no clue...and I won't enlighten them, hence they can't attack, and I need not defend

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What criticism do you have of the Quran?

Regards Tony

Tu Quoque.

And for your information, though you are trying a logical fallacy, many criticisms of the Quran. Form criticism is one of them. Why not try searching within this forum itself?

If you cannot answer a question my friend, dont do a Tu Quoque. Bad habit.

It was a genuine and valid question.

You asked about Baha'i Sholars and criticism in regards to Baha'i Writings.

I am asking if you would look for aspects of criticism in the Quran?

A Baha'i Scholar has already investigated and determined the Truth of the Baha'i Writings. Many would have recorded that journey, I suspect, as scholars like to publish findings.

Thus the Baha'i Writings are then used as the foundation of understanding for other scriptures.

Is that not the position of the Quran in scholarship, that it is the foundation of Truth, do you not judge the Baha'i from your understanding of the Quran? Genuine questions.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Form criticism.

Well, probably the closest to this, in Bahai Faith, is process of Authentication of writings, and finding out when, where, and why it was written.
Because, Bahai writings were not transmitted orally and written later. They were all written at the time, by the Central Figures of Bahai Faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah asks all people to search for the truth themselves.

Thus I guess to define a Baha'i Scholar, it is a person that has accepted that challenge, as their goal is to find the Truth and all study is aimed at achieving that goal.

What we have to consider here is, that accepting a Message from God is only a single step, as the search for truth is endless.

Thus every Baha'i on that journey is still taking part in that scholarship and will be to the day they pass from this life. Some may be great scholars, some may not be so great, some may be poor, but they still took up the challenge.

Regards Tony

Tu Quoque.

And for your information, though you are trying a logical fallacy, many criticisms of the Quran. Form criticism is one of them. Why not try searching within this forum itself?

If you cannot answer a question my friend, dont do a Tu Quoque. Bad habit.

I gave an answer I see is relevant to the OP

Any feedback on that?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

It was a genuine and valid question.

You asked about Baha'i Sholars and criticism in regards to Baha'i Writings.

I am asking if you would look for aspects of criticism in the Quran?

That is exactly what Tu Quoque is.