Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[Trailblazer]

How could the world miss what is prophesied in the Bible about the return of Jesus?

They missed Baha'u'llah because like you and other Christians they were waiting for the same man Jesus to drop down from the sky.

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

Connection to the Baháʼí Faith

Members of the Baháʼí Faith believe that Miller's interpretation of signs and dates of the coming of Jesus were, for the most part, correct.[29] They believe that the fulfillment of biblical prophecies of the coming of Christ came through a forerunner of their own religion, the Báb, who declared that he was the "Promised One" on May 23, 1844, and began openly teaching in Persia in October 1844.[30][31] Several Baháʼí books and pamphlets make mention of the Millerites, the prophecies used by Miller and the Great Disappointment, most notably Baháʼí follower William Sears' Thief in the Night.[32][33][34]

It was noted that the year AD1844 was also the Year AH1260. Sears tied Daniel's prophecies in with the Book of Revelation in the New Testament in support of Baháʼí teaching, interpreting the year 1260 as the "times, time and half a time" of Daniel 7:25 (3 and 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days). Using the same day-year principle as did William Miller, Sears decoded these texts into the year AH1260, or 1844.[32]

It is believed by Baháʼís that if William Miller had known the year 1844 was also the year AH1260, then he may have considered that there were other signs to look for. The Baháʼí interpretation of chapters 11 and 12 of the Book of Revelation, together with the predictions of Daniel, were explained by 'Abdu'l-Bahá, the son of the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, to Laura Clifford Barney and published in 1908 in Chapters 10, 11 and 13 of "Some Answered Questions". The explanation provided in Chapter 10 draws on the same biblical verses that William Miller used, and comes to the same conclusion about the year in which to expect the 'cleansing of the sanctuary' which was interpreted by 'Abdu'l-Bahá to be the 'dawn' of a new 'Revelation'--AD 1844.

It certainly does not fit the coming of Baha'u'llah, which is seen in a warning about false Christs.
Luke 17:23 People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.…

Baha'u'llah did fulfill that prophecy.

This warning also shows us that it is Jesus who is coming because it is He who suffered many things and was rejected by that generation.

Baha'u'llah also suffered many things and was rejected by that generation.

Jesus is not EVER coming back to earth, unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error; and if the following verses are in error, how can we trust any other Bible verses to be accurate?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Brian2]

Alright alright Brian my friend. I am impressed by your manner my man. (Very rarely I say my man but some people get offended when say brother).

Soon we shall have more heated discussions. Thank you very much for engaging.

I hope they aren't too heated.

 

[Brian2]

It does not fit because you did not want it to.

The fact is Bahaullah passes this test and many seekers embraced the Message of Baha'u'llah when they saw these Prophecies unfolding as written. There are prophecies still unfolding and will cone to pass.

I need not convince you of this, as this is each person's test in life.

Regards Tony

Probably, however the false prophet accusation sticks because of his disagreement with God's word in the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

I hope they aren't too heated.

Some times I like it heated, enough to fry my sunny side up. Honestly, that's how I like my breakfast.

Cheers brother. I hope you had a fantastic happy new year celebration, and 100 more of that to go in life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians who go by the Bible see the last days as beginning with Jesus.

Hebrews 1:2 ESV
But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
1 Peter 1:20 ESV
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
Acts 2:17 ESV
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

There is no such thing as “Christians who go by the Bible: since Christians interpret the Bible differently. Every Christian writes their own story according to verses they pick and put together. I can see that just by typing “when are the last days” into a Google search. It is funny to watch but sad to see the results which are all different. Logically speaking, since their views contradict each other they cannot all be right, but they can all be wrong.

Moreover, you can mix and match verses that have the word “last” in them in an effort to try to prove a point, but that does not change chronology. I could post a thread on this forum to Christians asking them when and what they believe the last days are if I had the time.

It is the last days from then on and all the things mentioned for the last days happen after that and it seems with intensity just before the end of the last days, which will be a time of great distress for all who live on the earth.

Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

God did cut short those days when He sent Baha’u’llah for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen.

Then on the last day the Lord will return in a way that is different to the way Baha'u'llah came and doing things that Baha'u'llah did not do.

You are free to believe that and keep waiting even though Jesus said He was no longer in the world and never promised to return, so even if Baha’u’llah was not the return of Christ, there will be no Jesus.

Your seeing signs of the last days now in the behaviour of people etc shows we are still in them and the Lord has not returned.

We are still living in the last days, but that does not mean that the Lord has not returned. The last days are the end times and the end times began in 1844.

“So what happens after the “end of the world”? Does life suddenly roll up into a ball of nothingness–or is there, as with every ending, a simultaneous new beginning?

The Baha’i teachings tell us that the end of the world Christ prophesies means the end of one divine cycle and the beginning of the new one destined to fulfill it.”

https://bahaiteachings.org/end-of-the-world-and-a-new-beginning/

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus, the Son of Mary, is to descend amongst you as a just ruler.

How do Baha'is interpret that?

Jesus is not EVER coming back to earth, unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error

So after Jesus died, what was it that his disciples that was Jesus?

and if the following verses are in error, how can we trust any other Bible verses to be accurate?

And do we trust the Bible to be accurate? And again, you make these verses so literal and absolute. Why don't you do that with all the verses of the Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

Probably, however the false prophet accusation sticks because of his disagreement with God's word in the Bible.

What you are saying is this:

"the false prophet accusation sticks because of his disagreement with my interpretation of God's word in the Bible"

So what you are saying in no uncertain terms is "I know what the Bible means" and I cannot be wrong."
So what you are saying in no uncertain terms is "Baha'is do not know what the Bible means because they disagree with me."

The Bible does not speak and say "this is what I mean." The Bible has to be read and interpreted by the reader who assigns meanings to the verses, and that is why Christians do not agree on what the verses mean, anymore than Christians and Baha'is agree. It boggles my imagination that you STILL cannot understand this simple concept after all these years.

 

[CG Didymus]

Members of the Baháʼí Faith believe that Miller's interpretation of signs and dates of the coming of Jesus were, for the most part, correct.[29] They believe that the fulfillment of biblical prophecies of the coming of Christ came through a forerunner of their own religion, the Báb, who declared that he was the "Promised One" on May 23, 1844

So was the coming of The Bab the coming of Jesus? No, it was the coming of the forerunner. But, I'm sure that doesn't bother you.

It was noted that the year AD1844 was also the Year AH1260. Sears tied Daniel's prophecies in with the Book of Revelation in the New Testament in support of Baháʼí teaching, interpreting the year 1260 as the "times, time and half a time" of Daniel 7:25 (3 and 1/2 years = 42 months = 1,260 days).

Daniel 7:2 I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.​

It would really be nice if Baha'is could include the context of the verses they give their interpretations to. But they don't. You've "unsealed" the book, so tell me... What's this talking about? But does it matter to Baha'is? No, one verse is usually all that is quoted. Then there is all the 1260 year verses they use from Revelation. I think maybe there Baha'is at least use more than one verse, but then the context of none of them starts in 621AD and ends in 1844. So, for me, it still falls most likely into the "cherry picking" category.

 

[Trailblazer]

And do we trust the Bible to be accurate? And again, you make these verses so literal and absolute. Why don't you do that with all the verses of the Bible?

That is what is called the plain text. It is Jesus talking and saying what He did and what He was going to do and not do. All the Bible verses are not clear as to the meaning and not all verses are intended to be taken literally.

 

[Trailblazer]

So was the coming of The Bab the coming of Jesus?

The Bab was the return of the Christ Spirit and the return of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know where it says that in the past tense but Joel says it would happen and Peter said Joel was speaking about that Pentecost.

In these verses of Acts 2, Peter did not say "Joel was speaking about that Pentecost."

All that Peter said is: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Then there is another completely different part of the chapter, and that is why it says ”But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;" followed by verses 17-21, which is what Joel said.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It is the God who speaks through His Spirit to lead people to Jesus so I surmise that the Holy Spirit falls on all for that purpose. However the prophecy could also mean that the Spirit is given to the believers, as it happened at Pentecost and is given to all flesh, meaning all people who believe and is not restricted to prophets and other special people who are chosen for various works by God.

It could mean many different things, so there is no way to know what it really means.

John 14,15,16 clearly however identifies the Holy Spirit to be the Spirit of Truth, a Spirit, not a man, and promised to live with and in Jesus disciples forever.

No, John 14,15,16 do not say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and it does not say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit; that is just your interpretation of the verses.

Jesus did say:
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.
This is said at the start of the promise of sending the Holy Spirit and so Jesus was referring to Himself as the first Advocate and that is because of what Jesus did and is doing. Jesus did and continues to do the things that the title of Advocate (Paraclete) does. But the other paraclete that Jesus promised is identified as a spirit, the Spirit of Truth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,who lives with and in the disciples.

All of that is just your interpretation, which is no better than my interpretation, as below:

“If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

Jesus was the first Advocate who brought the Holy Spirit, and this was Jesus saying He will ask the Father to send another Advocate, which was the same person as the Spirit of truth, Baha'u'llah.

and that is because of what Jesus did and is doing. Jesus did and continues to do the things that the title of Advocate (Paraclete) does. But the other paraclete that Jesus promised is identified as a spirit, the Spirit of Truth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,who lives with and in the disciples.

Jesus is not continuing to do those things that the Advocate does. That is not written in the Bible, it is just a Christian belief. The other paraclete that Jesus promised is not identified as a spirit, the Spirit of Truth, who lives with and in the disciples. That is simply a Christian belief; that is not what the Bible actually says.

There is nothing in John 14,15,16 about the Spirit of Truth being a man who brings the Holy Spirit.

That does not mean that is not what the verses are referring to. There is nothing that says the Spirit of Truth is a spirit who lives with and in the disciples. It is just not in the Bible, so that means it is just your interpretation of the verses. The Bible does not say: “the Spirit of Truth is a spirit who lives with and in the disciples” – you say that because that is what you were taught to believe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Probably, however the false prophet accusation sticks because of his disagreement with God's word in the Bible.

What can one say, where you see disagreement, I see fulfilment.

Such has been the quandary of faith since time began.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i understanding conflicts with the Bible and adds to it so that Baha'u'llah can say that he is the Spirit of Truth. Muhammad does a similar thing with the promise of the Advocate.

The Christian understanding adds to the Bible and says that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit that was sent to live inside the disciples and believers. Nowhere does the Bible say that.

Since it says that the Holy Spirit is the Advocate and is the Spirit of Truth and that the Spirit of Truth would live with and in the disciples, it is not so much an assumption as a logical conclusion. Does Baha'u'llah live in you?

The problem is that the Bible does not say any of that – you say that. So ALL you have is an assumption and not a logical conclusion. The Bible does not say “the Holy Spirit is the Advocate and is the Spirit of Truth and that the Spirit of Truth would live with and in the disciples.” That is just what you interpret the verses to mean.

No you didn't just prove it, all you did was show how your mind works to deny what Peter was saying.

Peter did not say that, as I just proved in my previous post, no need to repeat myself.

Actually if you look at the prophecy of Joel it seems to be saying the Spirit of God will be poured out and before these things all those signs (sun turned to darkness etc before the day of the Lord) will happen before Jesus returns to judge the earth. That does not sound like something that is the doctrine of Baha'i which says the Spirit will come after those things.

No, what it is saying is that all those signs (sun turned to darkness etc before the day of the Lord) will happen before Christ returns. Then after Christ returns, the Spirit of God will be poured out, because it is Christ to whom the Holy Spirit is sent by God.

Those verses are just misinterpreted by you so that you can say that Jesus is not coming back. However you know by now that the Bible clearly teaches that the same Jesus is coming back, in numerous places, so you are the one who wants to ignore the Bible.

There is no other way these verses can be interpreted. The plain meaning is that Jesus will be no more in the world.

You don’t have one verse that says that Jesus is coming back to earth, not one single verse. That is because Jesus never planned to come back to earth, ever.

Show me those numerous places where Jesus says He is coming back, and don’t bother with the verses that say we will see the Son of man in the clouds, because those are not Jesus saying He is coming back to earth.

Don’t waste your time on Acts 1:9-11 because that is not Jesus saying He is coming back; that is some angels who say the Spirit of Jesus leave His body.

There is nothing for me to ignore because the return of the same man Jesus is not in the Bible, it is just not there and you cannot make it be there.

The Bible does show logically that Baha'u'llah is not the Spirit of Truth and that it is just something read into the Bible by Baha'is. This is normal with how Baha'is read the Bible.

The Bible does show logically that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy spirit that was sent to live inside of believers and that it is just something read into the Bible by Christians This is normal with how Christians read the Bible.

But I don't have to prove anything, it is up to you to prove that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth. You cannot do that by using the Bible, but you don't really care about that. Your proof is what Baha'u'llah tells you.

No, I cannot prove it by using those verses of the Bible because they are subject to interpretation. Baha’u’llah never ever claimed that the Bible was the proof; but since that is all you will ever accept as proof, there is nowhere else to go.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

There is a lot more than this that Jesus will do. He will be seen by everyone, even those who pierced Him (Rev 1:7) He will raise the dead (John 6:40) He will bring peace and judge the nations and all people etc and it is not pictured in the Bible as a business as usual situation, with new teaching gradually spreading out in the world to change it, as Baha'is would have us believe.

Jesus will be seen by nobody or do any of these things because He is never going to return to earth. At least the JWs got this right.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

What Baha'u'llah said of Jesus is not the gospel message and that was abrogated by Baha'u'llah anyway.

Baha’u’llah did not abrogate the gospel message because the Word of God can never be abrogated. Only the Dispensation of Jesus was abrogated, not the Bible.

Baha'u'llah sounds like he is writing a eulogy for Jesus from the pov of someone who did not know him or what he did.
If Baha'u'llah wants to downgrade Jesus to a Messenger of God only and to use the Bible and Jesus as a stepping stone for his own exaltation then he has to say some nice things about Jesus I guess,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,especially if he wants to be seen as the Spirit of Truth who glorified and testified about Jesus.

Baha’u’llah knew more about Jesus and what He really did, as opposed to stories men wrote in the gospels, because Baha’u’llah had innate knowledge that He received in the spiritual world and in addition to that He received knowledge from God. And since Baha’u’llah was the same spirit of Jesus he recollected everything that Jesus experienced, which is why He said he longed for the cross.

Baha’u’llah did not downgrade Jesus to a Messenger of God because that is what Jesus was, that and a Manifestation of God. Jesus was not God.

1 Timothy 3:16
King James Bible
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Baha’u’llah did not need the Bible or Jesus as a stepping-stone, hardly.

John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.”

“Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ‘Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and ‘hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 170

 

[Brian2]

Some times I like it heated, enough to fry my sunny side up. Honestly, that's how I like my breakfast.

Cheers brother. I hope you had a fantastic happy new year celebration, and 100 more of that to go in life.

Yes I have noticed you like it hot.
All the best for the new year.

 

[Brian2]

No, my belief that the Spirit of Truth is a specific reference to Baha’u’llah, who brought the Holy Spirit, would mean that I acknowledge the truth of those passages above.

The passages say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and you are saying that the Spirit of Truth brings the Holy Spirit.

Those passages are Jesus saying that the Advocate and the Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit that Jesus was promising to send from the Father to Baha’u’llah in the last days.

So Jesus did not bring the Holy Spirit, it was sent from the Father, and we are told that the last days began with Jesus.

Jesus was an advocate, Baha’u’llah was another advocate. The following verses are an obvious reference to another person who brought the Holy Spirit, and at that time the world could not accept him, because it neither saw him nor knew him.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.

Jesus was an advocate, and that means that He was a helper and intercedes and advocates for the disciples and the Holy Spirit does, and so the Holy Spirit can be called another Parakletos.
The problem with the Spirit of Truth being Baha'u'llah is that Baha'u'llah was a man and the Spirit of Truth is a spirit, the Holy Spirit.

No, the Bible does not say that that Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and was promised to the disciples of 2000 years ago. That is just how you interpret those verses because that is what you already believe.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

You believe that verse above is saying that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit, but the verse does not say “the Advocate which is the Holy Spirit.”

It could just as easily mean that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in Jesus’ name when He sends Baha’u’llah.

John 14:26 is plain English and means that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send. No it could not mean what you propose it could mean. That is just changing the meaning.
But the Holy Spirit, a spirit, who is the promised Advocate, was promised to the disciples Jesus was speaking to. Read the passages again and it is plain. Also the Holy Spirit that was promised to them (the same one that is the Advocate and Spirit of Truth) was given to them at Pentecost.

That is not a reason to believe that the same Jesus who said He was no more in the world in more than one verse will return to the world. That is just how you interpret those verses because that is what you already believe.

Jesus finished His work on earth so was going to return to the Father and the world would not see Him any more because of that. But He was not going to leave them as orphans, He would come to them along with the Father and dwell in them. Jesus and the Father were going to be in the promised Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) and live in the disciples. But that does not mean that Jesus promise of returning one day is not true. It is just as true as the fact that Jesus had finished His work and was going to go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

The Bible does not say that that the same physical body of Jesus was taken up to heaven and will return from heaven.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

These verses say that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return from heaven, from the heaven of the Will of God.

The passage does not mention physical body or spirit, but that is OK as we already know that Jesus was in His resurrection body, His spiritual body, which is immortal and incorruptible and can live anywhere and also which is not just spirit but is flesh and bone. (Notice the passage says flesh and bone and not flesh and blood and also notice that Jesus says that He is not a spirit). This is the body He was in when He ascended to heaven logically.
Luke 24:38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

We know how Jesus descended from heaven the first time when He became a man, but Baha'u'llah has to descend from heaven the way Jesus ascended, when the disciples saw Him ascend bodily and disappear into the clouds in the sky.

No, you did not show that. You interpreted the verses to try to make them agree with the Christian understanding.

It does not take much interpretation, just logic and without bringing in ideas from other teachings and trying to make the Bible conform to them, when it really, logically does not.

Apparently you don’t get it, but I do not understand WHY you don’t get it, as every Christian knows that Pentecost was not in the last days, as the Day of Pentecost and the last days are in completely different time periods.

Acts 2 tells us that Pentecost was in the last days and other scriptures I posted to you show that God sent His Son, Jesus in the last days. This was the beginning of the last days and now most Christians think of the last days as the end of the last days.
But anyway, as I posted, Joel's prophecy says the Spirit would come in the last days and after that the signs of the return of Jesus would happen. Baha'i wants the Spirit (Baha'u'llah, who was not a spirit anyway) to come and then the signs of the return of Jesus to happen if Baha'i thinks that the prophecy of Joes refers to the coming of Baha'u'llah.

I am learning some new things I did not know, by looking them up on the internet.

You don't want to believe everything you read on the internet.
But the "church age" is the last days.

Beginning Of The Church Age

Pentecost was also the birthday of the church. The Old Testament period of law was concluded and a new era began. Those who believe in Jesus as Messiah during this present age become part of the body (or bride) of Christ known as the church. The church age began at Pentecost and will conclude when Christ comes back for His own.”

What Happened on the Day of Pentecost?

The church age ends when Christ returns. Those are the last days and what the Bible refers to as the end of the age.
Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The church age does end when Christ returns and the last days (last days relative to the age of the earth and the time that humans have been on the earth) are from Jesus first advent to His second advent and all the signs of the end of the age, Jesus 2nd coming, happen before Jesus comes. (not afterwards as the Joel prophecy says, so the Joel prophecy was about, as Peter said, that Pentecost)

Of course, Baha’is believe that Christ already returned so the Church Age ended in 1844 and the new age began, that which Baha’is refer to as the Age of Fulfillment, since all the Bible prophecies will be fulfilled during this new age, which is the Dawn of a New Era.

So why say that the Spirit comes before the signs of the end, as in the prophecy of Joel?

 

[Brian2]

Isa 8:19 has naught to do with a true prophet. The Baha'i Faith teachings warn against delving into these practices and teach that all humanity has the same One God. Thus the quoted passage supports the Message of Baha'u'llah.

It is not specifically about prophets but the principle applies. Even without going into the source of Baha'u'llah's message we can see that prophets can get their messages from other spirits and not the Spirit of God. We are to test those spirits and see if they conform to the word of God or not.
(1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.)

Matt 7:15 is applicable as a true prophet is known by their fruits. Their person and their life will match what they teach. The Word is the tree of life and the Prophet is that tree and only provides good fruit.

The life of Baha'u'llah is that of Good fruit, He was known as the Father of the Poor.

It is up to one who seeks justice, to look at that life.

The life of Baha'u'llah is full of fruit and that passage supports Baha'u'llah.

You have offered no proof, but only your ideas.

Regards Tony

You are limiting what constitutes good fruit.
2Cor 11:13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

I don't want to prejudge Baha'u'llah but am just showing that good works are not the only sign of a true prophet and may not even be the fruit of a prophet. Certainly the fruit of Baha'u'llah is a denial of the Bible and of the eternal gospel and covenant that Jesus brought, and that, to a Christian is bad fruit.

 

[Brian2]

You have also with that statement proved Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as they also were rejected by their generation.

Muhammad and Baha'u'llah suffered over many years. The Bab suffered the same as Jesus, for double the time, 6 years in contrast to 3 years.

The lightening flashing East to West supports the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Why the Bab was still alive in the mid 1800's, his Faith became known in the West. The Message of Baha'u'llah was established in America by the end of the 19th Century, while Baha'u'llah was still alive. No previous faith has seen such a rapid spread.

So the passages posted support the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

No not really because the passage says that "...first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation". If what you are saying is right then the Bab and Baha'u'llah and Muhammad would have to suffer many things first, ie before they came. So in the passage Jesus is referring to Himself and is saying not to go running after others who do not come in such a way that everyone knows from one end of the sky to the other.

Luke 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

 

[Brian2]

All you are really saying is that Baha'is have to deny my interpretation (which is the Christian understanding of the Bible) to make Baha'i true.

Baha'is do not deny the Bible, we just interpret it according to our own understanding, which is derived from the unsealing of the Book which took place when Baha'u'llah came and unsealed the book by explaining what certain key words and scriptures really mean..

Unsealing the book refers to the scriptures that had been sealed; thus they could not be fully understood. That is why referring to the time of the end, Daniel said: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end means that unless Christians look at how the scriptures were was unsealed and explained, they will not know what they really mean.

The "Book" is the Bible that was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by the Bab and Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-10.html.utf8?query=Messiah&action=highlight#gr15

I have checked out the Baha'i interpretation of prophecy and find it to be faulty and really don't want to go from one topic to another, to another and then around in a circle and start again.
Yes I am saying I interpret the Bible differently and what you are saying is that you do not interpret the Bible. What you do is agree with Baha'u'llah, which is not an interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

What you are saying is this:

"the false prophet accusation sticks because of his disagreement with my interpretation of God's word in the Bible"

So what you are saying in no uncertain terms is "I know what the Bible means" and I cannot be wrong."
So what you are saying in no uncertain terms is "Baha'is do not know what the Bible means because they disagree with me."

The Bible does not speak and say "this is what I mean." The Bible has to be read and interpreted by the reader who assigns meanings to the verses, and that is why Christians do not agree on what the verses mean, anymore than Christians and Baha'is agree. It boggles my imagination that you STILL cannot understand this simple concept after all these years.

Of course I am speaking in my honest and humble opinion.
But you know I'm right,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,go on, admit it.

 

[Brian2]

In these verses of Acts 2, Peter did not say "Joel was speaking about that Pentecost."

Acts 2:15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

Yes he did.

No, John 14,15,16 do not say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and it does not say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit; that is just your interpretation of the verses.

Jesus is not continuing to do those things that the Advocate does. That is not written in the Bible, it is just a Christian belief. The other paraclete that Jesus promised is not identified as a spirit, the Spirit of Truth, who lives with and in the disciples. That is simply a Christian belief; that is not what the Bible actually says.

Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Hebrews 7:25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
1John 2:1-2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The other Paraclete is identified as the Holy Spirit, a spirit. The other Paraclete is identified as the Spirit of Truth, also a spirit who goes out from the Father.
John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

There is nothing that says the Spirit of Truth is a spirit who lives with and in the disciples. It is just not in the Bible, so that means it is just your interpretation of the verses. The Bible does not say: “the Spirit of Truth is a spirit who lives with and in the disciples” – you say that because that is what you were taught to believe.

We can know that the Spirit of Truth is a spirit because He is the Spirit of Truth.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.