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Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Sorry mate. You seem like a nice guy. All that is good. But all this preaching is not relevant to me. I hope you understand.

By the way, I have a Bahai friend now. With a lot of difficulty I found one. This is after interacting with Adrian who was the first to enlighten me about the Bahai faith in a thread I opened to just understand the faith because I had no clue of your theology.

Anyway, have a great day. Cheers.

Thanks for your thought provoking threads. I really enjoy them. I do need to be more scholarly. It’s something I need to learn. I’m going to uni now and they are trying to instill in us critical thinking and such, so I really appreciate your views and especially your patience.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I would say the prophecy regarding the Advocate teaching and reminding what Christ said, must be for a far future distance when false teachers would rise among the Christians. At that time, they need someone to come and teach the true teachings of Christ again, as the true teachings of Christ would be lost or misinterpreted. Just as you see today, there are thousands of denominations, each is after that original teachings of Jesus. Each denomination claims they know the true teachings of Jesus. So, in Bahai view this Prophecy is related to Bahaullah, for He taught all those things that Jesus taught, meaning through His revelation, He explained the original and true interpretation of teachings of Christ.

There were people teaching wrong things in the time of the apostles so the remembrance of what Jesus said was necessary then and it was necessary in order for the gospels to be written. It was more necessary in those days so that the foundations of the truth could be laid. If it did not happen then who would know what the real teachings of Jesus were?

Also the verse which says "the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him..." denoted a Person who is a universal manifestation, and have a Revelation for the whole world, but this Person would be rejected. This prophecy fits Bahaullah. I dont see how it can fit the invisible Holy Spirit. It must be a Person who is the embodiment of the Spirit, rather thn just an invisible Spirit.

It was just the invisible Holy Spirit who told the prophets what to say and do in the OT times and who accompanied Israel in their trek in the wilderness.
If you are saying that Baha'u'llah was the embodiment of the Spirit, are you saying that the Spirit is God?
Why do you not see the Spirit as a person even though it is invisible? Certainly when the Spirit of Truth is said to come and live with and in the disciples of Jesus I cannot see that being a human being, can you?

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Somehow, the bottomline is, they are not considered brothers with the whole of humanity and everyone is not equal.

Thats the whole point.

It is not the person it is the sin that is not acceptable in the Kingdom of God. If it was the person then those who are by nature, liars or thieves or adulterers or fornicators or drunks etc would be in the same boat. We all fall short of what God wants from us but we are all still normal humans in that respect even if we have strong natural leanings to act in ways that we know God does not approve of.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Then name the tests of a Prophet and then prove Baha'u'llah did not fulfil them.

That is your challenge, as I know you will not be able to.

Regards Tony

I found this test of a prophet of Israel, but it does not quite fit Baha'u'llah. I hear he predicted things that may have come true but that does not guarantee a true prophet especially if those things are repeats of Bible prophecy or things that a demonic spirit could well be able to predict.

Deut 18:…21You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” 22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

I found this which could be considered a test for Baha'u'llah since I would say he was led by spirits other than from God. But of course more importantly it is because he did not speak according to the word of God in the Bible.

Isa 8:19 When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn’t a people consult their God instead? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?…

This fits well with Baha'u'llah since one fruit of Baha'u'llah is that Baha'is have to deny the Bible to make Baha'i true.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
All the best Brian2, but the world has missed what they still wait for.

How could the world miss what is prophesied in the Bible about the return of Jesus? It certainly does not fit the coming of Baha'u'llah, which is seen in a warning about false Christs.
Luke 17:23 People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.…

This warning also shows us that it is Jesus who is coming because it is He who suffered many things and was rejected by that generation.

We had a cyclone come past last night, 360mm of rain and many trees down.

Have to go out and clean them all up now. Years of growing blown down in One night. That is also how God sends the Messengers.

Regards Tony

We had a similar storm in February 2020. Our storm was not as severe as the one you describe probably however there was much damage all around. I hope your insurance covers some of it at least.
But yes we do have warnings of approaching storms and then they do come like that, as described in Luke 17,,,,,,,,,,,,they can't be missed.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Acts 2:16-21 refer to the last days; they have nothing to do with Pentecost. The last days, also known as the end times, are ushered in by the return of Christ. All Christians believe that, and this is what all the Christian websites say.

Top 7 Bible Verses About End Times Or The Last Days

Here are my top seven Bible verses referring to the last day or the end times, sometimes called the end of the age.

Matthew 24:10-12 “And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.”

During Jesus’ so-called Olivet Prophecy, He was telling the disciples that there would come a time where many false prophets or teachers will rise up and lead many, not a few, astray. The idea of lawbreakers increasing is easy to document around the world today with the rise of violent crime and so too has the love of many grown cold. A very important point is that many will fall away and many will arise to lead many astray. This isn’t a small problem but one where many (most?) will be deceived.

Second Timothy 3:1-5 “But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.”

If you call the study of God theology then you might call the study of man “meology” or “it’s all about me” and satisfying my needs. No wonder that in the last days difficult times will come and in fact, have already come. People love money, self, are proud and arrogant, and abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable (can’t be satisfied), slanderous, having no self-control, brutal and the list goes on. Just watch the news and you’ll see that these last day are plenty full of difficulty. We used love people and use things but today we love things and use people.

Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Daniel was told that in the last days many will run to and fro and knowledge will increase. Daniel was told to seal up the book until the time of the end and that time, at least it appears, could be close. People are certainly running to and fro via the host of transportation options we have available and the Internet has helped increase knowledge worldwide but not necessary useful knowledge. But in Daniel’s day, it wasn’t time to reveal the end time events yet and so he was told “seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future” (Dan 8:26b).

Top 7 Bible Verses About End Times Or The Last Days

Pentecost was not the fulfilment of the prophecy of Joel. None of those prophecies below were fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, they were fulfilled prior to the return of Christ, which is the last days also referred to as the end times.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


All the prophecies in the verses above have been fulfilled and they are the same prophecies that are in other verses that are noted below. This is the evidence that shows us that the Son of man has already returned.

Rev 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Christians who go by the Bible see the last days as beginning with Jesus.

Hebrews 1:2 ESV
But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
1 Peter 1:20 ESV
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
Acts 2:17 ESV
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

It is the last days from then on and all the things mentioned for the last days happen after that and it seems with intensity just before the end of the last days, which will be a time of great distress for all who live on the earth.

Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Then on the last day the Lord will return in a way that is different to the way Baha'u'llah came and doing things that Baha'u'llah did not do.

John 6:40 ESV
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Rev 1:7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Your seeing signs of the last days now in the behaviour of people etc shows we are still in them and the Lord has not returned.
The signs that you seem to accept as the sun being darkened and the stars falling have all happened at times in history. Have you seen this bit of history?
Why 536 was ‘the worst year to be alive’ | Science | AAAS
Or maybe this bit of science about meteor showers which have come in the past and keep happening.
Astronomy On-Line: The Leonids
The Gospel is still being preached in the world and not all have heard it yet, especially in places that are closed off to the entrance of the gospel, Communist countries and Muslim nations and other places that make it hard for the preaching of the gospel in various ways.
Matt 24:…13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Where does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit is poured out on all people and spoke to them all?

I don't know where it says that in the past tense but Joel says it would happen and Peter said Joel was speaking about that Pentecost.
It is the God who speaks through His Spirit to lead people to Jesus so I surmise that the Holy Spirit falls on all for that purpose. However the prophecy could also mean that the Spirit is given to the believers, as it happened at Pentecost and is given to all flesh, meaning all people who believe and is not restricted to prophets and other special people who are chosen for various works by God.

That is exactly right, and that is exactly what Abdu’l-Baha said above, but the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost is not the Comforter/Advocate/Spirit of Truth that was sent in the last days. Clearly, these are two separate events of the same Holy Spirit being sent.

John 14,15,16 clearly however identifies the Holy Spirit to be the Spirit of Truth, a Spirit, not a man, and promised to live with and in Jesus disciples forever. It is not exegesis to say that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth and that the Spirit of Truth is the man who brings the Holy Spirit, it is eisegesis and cannot be seen in John 14,15,16. If anything those chapters eliminate the possibility of that interpretation because of what they say about the Spirit of Truth.
Jesus did say:
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.
This is said at the start of the promise of sending the Holy Spirit and so Jesus was referring to Himself as the first Advocate and that is because of what Jesus did and is doing. Jesus did and continues to do the things that the title of Advocate (Paraclete) does. But the other paraclete that Jesus promised is identified as a spirit, the Spirit of Truth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,who lives with and in the disciples.
There is nothing in John 14,15,16 about the Spirit of Truth being a man who brings the Holy Spirit.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Baha’i understandings of what the Holy Spirit actually is do not conflict with what the Bible says it is. They are just further explanations, which is to be expected since the Revelation of Baha’u’llah came after the Bible was written.

The Baha'i understanding conflicts with the Bible and adds to it so that Baha'u'llah can say that he is the Spirit of Truth. Muhammad does a similar thing with the promise of the Advocate.

The only verses you ever assembled were verses that say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, but there are no verses that say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit who was given to each disciple at Pentecost. That is just an assumption you have made, it is not in any verses.

Since it says that the Holy Spirit is the Advocate and is the Spirit of Truth and that the Spirit of Truth would live with and in the disciples, it is not so much an assumption as a logical conclusion. Does Baha'u'llah live in you?

I did just prove that the Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost is not the same event as the Holy Spirit sent in the last days. It cannot be because the events that were to precede the return of Christ/day of the Lord (19, 20) did not happen prior to Pentecost.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


No you didn't just prove it, all you did was show how your mind works to deny what Peter was saying.
Actually if you look at the prophecy of Joel it seems to be saying the Spirit of God will be poured out and before these things all those signs (sun turned to darkness etc before the day of the Lord) will happen before Jesus returns to judge the earth. That does not sound like something that is the doctrine of Baha'i which says the Spirit will come after those things.

There is no Baha’i teaching regarding Jesus not returning to earth. That is clearly a Bible teaching based upon Bible verses (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 18:36) that Christians choose to ignore.

Those verses are just misinterpreted by you so that you can say that Jesus is not coming back. However you know by now that the Bible clearly teaches that the same Jesus is coming back, in numerous places, so you are the one who wants to ignore the Bible.

The Bible does not show that Baha’u’llah is not the Spirit of Truth. You have yet to prove that Baha’u’llah was not the Spirit of Truth but I have made the necessary connections between the Bible and what Baha’u’llah wrote that indicate that Bahaullah was the Spirit of Truth.

The Bible does show logically that Baha'u'llah is not the Spirit of Truth and that it is just something read into the Bible by Baha'is. This is normal with how Baha'is read the Bible. But I don't have to prove anything, it is up to you to prove that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth. You cannot do that by using the Bible, but you don't really care about that. Your proof is what Baha'u'llah tells you.

Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth and Jesus said what he would do when he came.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

There is a lot more than this that Jesus will do. He will be seen by everyone, even those who pierced Him (Rev 1:7) He will raise the dead (John 6:40) He will bring peace and judge the nations and all people etc and it is not pictured in the Bible as a business as usual situation, with new teaching gradually spreading out in the world to change it, as Baha'is would have us believe.
What Baha'u'llah said of Jesus is not the gospel message and that was abrogated by Baha'u'llah anyway.
Baha'u'llah sounds like he is writing a eulogy for Jesus from the pov of someone who did not know him or what he did.
If Baha'u'llah wants to downgrade Jesus to a Messenger of God only and to use the Bible and Jesus as a stepping stone for his own exaltation then he has to say some nice things about Jesus I guess,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,especially if he wants to be seen as the Spirit of Truth who glorified and testified about Jesus.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It isn't.

Alright alright Brian my friend. I am impressed by your manner my man. (Very rarely I say my man but some people get offended when say brother).

Soon we shall have more heated discussions. Thank you very much for engaging.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
found this test of a prophet of Israel, but it does not quite fit Baha'u'llah. I hear he predicted things that may have come true but that does not guarantee a true prophet especially if those things are repeats of Bible prophecy or things that a demonic spirit could well be able to predict.

Deut 18:…21You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” 22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

It does not fit because you did not want it to.

The fact is Bahaullah passes this test and many seekers embraced the Message of Baha'u'llah when they saw these Prophecies unfolding as written. There are prophecies still unfolding and will cone to pass.

I need not convince you of this, as this is each person's test in life.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It does not fit because you did not want it to.

The fact is Bahaullah passes this test and many seekers embraced the Message of Baha'u'llah when they saw these Prophecies unfolding as written. There are prophecies still unfolding and will cone to pass.

I need not convince you of this, as this is each person's test in life.

Regards Tony

This is just preaching. All preaching.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Isa 8:19 When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn’t a people consult their God instead? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?…

This fits well with Baha'u'llah since one fruit of Baha'u'llah is that Baha'is have to deny the Bible to make Baha'i true

Isa 8:19 has naught to do with a true prophet. The Baha'i Faith teachings warn against delving into these practices and teach that all humanity has the same One God. Thus the quoted passage supports the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Matt 7:15 is applicable as a true prophet is known by their fruits. Their person and their life will match what they teach. The Word is the tree of life and the Prophet is that tree and only provides good fruit.

The life of Baha'u'llah is that of Good fruit, He was known as the Father of the Poor.

It is up to one who seeks justice, to look at that life.

The life of Baha'u'llah is full of fruit and that passage supports Baha'u'llah.

You have offered no proof, but only your ideas.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
How could the world miss what is prophesied in the Bible about the return of Jesus? It certainly does not fit the coming of Baha'u'llah, which is seen in a warning about false Christs.
Luke 17:23 People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.…

This warning also shows us that it is Jesus who is coming because it is He who suffered many things and was rejected by that generation.

You have also with that statement proved Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as they also were rejected by their generation.

Muhammad and Baha'u'llah suffered over many years. The Bab suffered the same as Jesus, for double the time, 6 years in contrast to 3 years.

The lightening flashing East to West supports the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Why the Bab was still alive in the mid 1800's, his Faith became known in the West. The Message of Baha'u'llah was established in America by the end of the 19th Century, while Baha'u'llah was still alive. No previous faith has seen such a rapid spread.

So the passages posted support the Message of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
This is just preaching. All preaching.

I see it was not, I see It was stating how the passages were used as a form of Negation, when there is ample proof in the positive, so much in fact it is really not ours to provide.

If a person is to quote a passage that is to be used to determine a True Prophet, one has to indicate that they have at least make the effort to use that judgement they provided with justice.

You made a comment the other day about most of our replies are made up as we go.

You are correct, and done on a phone. So the luxury of having the research material on a desktop, or laptop is not always available. As such the replies can also reflect the mode of tech being used in reply and the time available.

Just something to consider.

Regards Tony
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
I see it was not, I see It was stating how the passages were used as a form of Negation, when there is ample proof in the positive, so much in fact it is really not ours to provide.

If a person is to quote a passage that is to be used to determine a True Prophet, one has to indicate that they have at least make the effort to use that judgement they provided with justice.

You made a comment the other day about most of our replies are made up as we go.

You are correct, and done on a phone. So the luxury of having the research material on a desktop, or laptop is not always available. As such the replies can also reflect the mode of tech being used in reply and the time available.

Just something to consider.

Regards Tony

Brother. If a person does not have a valid answer, he should state it.

Not pretend he does, and make up an answer.

One of your colleagues made up such a bogus answer to a hadith that says "Jesus will come kill the pigs" to mean "he is gonna abolish the law of not eating swine flesh". That was just made up right then and there. This hadith very clearly states that Jesus, upon his return will go around killing pigs, not allowing people to eat them. Thats one of the examples of making answers up as one goes.

There are many examples like that.

If one does not have an answer, he or she should refrain from making up bogus answers for the sake of answering. In my world, that's a fair expectation. I presume it is the same in your world as well. That is with the presumption that both live in the same world.

Peace.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Brother. If a person does not have a valid answer, he should state it.

Not pretend he does, and make up an answer.

One of your colleagues made up such a bogus answer to a hadith that says "Jesus will come kill the pigs" to mean "he is gonna abolish the law of not eating swine flesh". That was just made up right then and there. This hadith very clearly states that Jesus, upon his return will go around killing pigs, not allowing people to eat them. Thats one of the examples of making answers up as one goes.

There are many examples like that.

If one does not have an answer, he or she should refrain from making up bogus answers for the sake of answering. In my world, that's a fair expectation. I presume it is the same in your world as well. That is with the presumption that both live in the same world.

Peace.
This is a Hadith you asked. This one says kill the Pig. Not pigS.

"By He in whose hands my soul rests, Jesus, the Son of Mary, is to descend amongst you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pig, abolish Jizya and wealth will increase to such an extent that one prostration will be more valuable than the whole world and all that it contains."

I am not saying my interpretation is certainly true. I gave you my understanding.
But notice it also says, He will abolish Jizya. These are the Sharia Laws.

Why should Christ come and Kill the Pig? Which pig? What benefit does that have.
I suggested this is an allusion that He will allow killing and eating Pig. But the pig could also be an allusion to "inhumane attributes". He comes to destroy the wicked attributes which is symbolized as Pig. Similar to how the Jews who disobeyed Sabath are likened to Pigs in the Quran.

Beside this, I am certain there is enough evidence in the Quran and Hadithes that tells us, the Mahdi and Christ will bring a new Revelation, new Laws which abrogate or substitute previous religious Laws.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This fits well with Baha'u'llah since one fruit of Baha'u'llah is that Baha'is have to deny the Bible to make Baha'i true.
All you are really saying is that Baha'is have to deny my interpretation (which is the Christian understanding of the Bible) to make Baha'i true.

Baha'is do not deny the Bible, we just interpret it according to our own understanding, which is derived from the unsealing of the Book which took place when Baha'u'llah came and unsealed the book by explaining what certain key words and scriptures really mean..

Unsealing the book refers to the scriptures that had been sealed; thus they could not be fully understood. That is why referring to the time of the end, Daniel said: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end means that unless Christians look at how the scriptures were was unsealed and explained, they will not know what they really mean.

The "Book" is the Bible that was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by the Bab and Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Daniel 12
King James Version

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
 
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