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Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
firedragon
Veteran Member
Except for maybe two to three highly decent people, its always guessing and sometimes "making things up" on the go.
How do you know the current popular meaning is not why Christ gave the warning about adding to and taking away from the book.
That is the quandary, Jesus said the dead in Christ will rise first, that could mean it is not the Christians that first accept the message.
Regards Tony
Then name the tests of a Prophet and then prove Baha'u'llah did not fulfil them.
That is your challenge, as I know you will not be able to.
Regards Tony
All the best Brian2, but the world has missed what they still wait for.
We had a cyclone come past last night, 360mm of rain and many trees down.
Have to go out and clean them all up now. Years of growing blown down in One night. That is also how God sends the Messengers.
Regards Tony
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus came in the station of the Son; Baha’u’llah came in the station of the Father.
Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of Man in the clouds, and those clouds are not physical clouds, they refer to the clouded minds of men that prevented men from recognizing Baha’u’llah.
Did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person. That is because Jesus was referring to another person, NOT Himself.
All one has to do is read the verses to figure that out that Jesus was referring ti another person, not to Himself..
Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and Jesus says “also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.
Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
It is kind of amazing how accurate the Bible really is, given how it came to be written.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Baha'u'llah says:
"Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth".
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)
Abdu'l'baha says:
This is certain, that the divine policy is justice and kindness toward all mankind. For all the nations of the world are the sheep of God, and God is the kind shepherd.
Tablets of the Divine Plan | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)
I think their words show that they don't know what sheep are.
Only some will be sheep. Some will go to hell as the cattle of Reuben.
Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart. Judges 5:16
"Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth".
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)
Abdu'l'baha says:
This is certain, that the divine policy is justice and kindness toward all mankind. For all the nations of the world are the sheep of God, and God is the kind shepherd.
Tablets of the Divine Plan | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)
I think their words show that they don't know what sheep are.
Only some will be sheep. Some will go to hell as the cattle of Reuben.
Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart. Judges 5:16
Then it most likely will agree with what Baha'u'llah offered.
In the end when we find difficult to understand verses, we are told to consult on them and find meaning together.
It is said of we argue, we are both wrong. As such one can see the Message of Baha'u'llah is aimed at reconciliation of the Faiths.
Regards Tony
Some sheep choose to follow, others will run away from the flock.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah did not say that all the sheep would follow the shepherd.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
When the blind follow the blind they go off the path and fall into a ditch.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Baha'u'llah did not say that all the sheep would follow the shepherd.
I think Muhammed knew the difference between cattle and sheep.
Verily the tree of Zaqqum
Will be the food of the Sinful
Like molten brass; it will boil in their insides.
44:43-45
Eat for yourselves and pasture your cattle: verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding. 20:54
Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. 25:44
Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless of warning. 7:179
Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! 18:29
And he made fifty taches of brass to couple the tent together, that it might be one. Exodus 36:18
Brass - Silver - Gold
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Well, if you think, the Prophet meant to say, Jesus comes from sky, or Dajjal's donkey so huge, upto you.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Acts 2:16-21 refer to the last days; they have nothing to do with Pentecost. The last days, also known as the end times, are ushered in by the return of Christ. All Christians believe that, and this is what all the Christian websites say.
Top 7 Bible Verses About End Times Or The Last Days
Here are my top seven Bible verses referring to the last day or the end times, sometimes called the end of the age.
Matthew 24:10-12 “And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.”
During Jesus’ so-called Olivet Prophecy, He was telling the disciples that there would come a time where many false prophets or teachers will rise up and lead many, not a few, astray. The idea of lawbreakers increasing is easy to document around the world today with the rise of violent crime and so too has the love of many grown cold. A very important point is that many will fall away and many will arise to lead many astray. This isn’t a small problem but one where many (most?) will be deceived.
Second Timothy 3:1-5 “But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.”
If you call the study of God theology then you might call the study of man “meology” or “it’s all about me” and satisfying my needs. No wonder that in the last days difficult times will come and in fact, have already come. People love money, self, are proud and arrogant, and abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable (can’t be satisfied), slanderous, having no self-control, brutal and the list goes on. Just watch the news and you’ll see that these last day are plenty full of difficulty. We used love people and use things but today we love things and use people.
Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Daniel was told that in the last days many will run to and fro and knowledge will increase. Daniel was told to seal up the book until the time of the end and that time, at least it appears, could be close. People are certainly running to and fro via the host of transportation options we have available and the Internet has helped increase knowledge worldwide but not necessary useful knowledge. But in Daniel’s day, it wasn’t time to reveal the end time events yet and so he was told “seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future” (Dan 8:26b).
Top 7 Bible Verses About End Times Or The Last Days
Pentecost was not the fulfilment of the prophecy of Joel. None of those prophecies below were fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, they were fulfilled prior to the return of Christ, which is the last days also referred to as the end times.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
All the prophecies in the verses above have been fulfilled and they are the same prophecies that are in other verses that are noted below. This is the evidence that shows us that the Son of man has already returned.
Rev 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Not really Tony. Muthashabih is something that only is mentioned in the Qur'an, about Ayats that are dual. Your article understood it okay, but whats said above is "muthashabih ahadith". Thats bogus.
Thanks brother.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples of Jesus and spoke to them and that they proclaimed the Cause of God to the world.
“After the death of Christ the disciples were troubled, and their ideas and thoughts were discordant and contradictory; later they became firm and united, and at the feast of Pentecost they gathered together and detached themselves from the things of this world. Disregarding themselves, they renounced their comfort and worldly happiness, sacrificing their body and soul to the Beloved, abandoning their houses, and becoming wanderers and homeless, even forgetting their own existence. Then they received the help of God, and the power of the Holy Spirit became manifested; the spirituality of Christ triumphed, and the love of God reigned. They were given help at that time and dispersed in different directions, teaching the Cause of God, and giving forth proofs and evidences.
So the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles means their attraction by the Christ Spirit, whereby they acquired stability and firmness. Through the spirit of the love of God they gained a new life, and they saw Christ living, helping and protecting them. They were like drops, and they became seas; they were like feeble insects, and they became majestic eagles; they were weak and became powerful. They were like mirrors facing the sun; verily, some of the light became manifest in them.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 106-107
24: THE DESCENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON THE APOSTLES
Where does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit is poured out on all people and spoke to them all?
That is exactly right, and that is exactly what Abdu’l-Baha said above, but the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost is not the Comforter/Advocate/Spirit of Truth that was sent in the last days. Clearly, these are two separate events of the same Holy Spirit being sent.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus:
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha’i understandings of what the Holy Spirit actually is do not conflict with what the Bible says it is. They are just further explanations, which is to be expected since the Revelation of Baha’u’llah came after the Bible was written.
The only verses you ever assembled were verses that say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, but there are no verses that say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit who was given to each disciple at Pentecost. That is just an assumption you have made, it is not in any verses.
I did just prove that the Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost is not the same event as the Holy Spirit sent in the last days. It cannot be because the events that were to precede the return of Christ/day of the Lord (19, 20) did not happen prior to Pentecost.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
There is no Baha’i teaching regarding Jesus not returning to earth. That is clearly a Bible teaching based upon Bible verses (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 18:36) that Christians choose to ignore.
The Bible does not show that Baha’u’llah is not the Spirit of Truth. You have yet to prove that Baha’u’llah was not the Spirit of Truth but I have made the necessary connections between the Bible and what Baha’u’llah wrote that indicate that Bahaullah was the Spirit of Truth.
Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth and Jesus said what he would do when he came.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, my belief that the Spirit of Truth is a specific reference to Baha’u’llah, who brought the Holy Spirit, would mean that I acknowledge the truth of those passages above.
Those passages are Jesus saying that the Advocate and the Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit that Jesus was promising to send from the Father to Baha’u’llah in the last days.
Jesus was an advocate, Baha’u’llah was another advocate. The following verses are an obvious reference to another person who brought the Holy Spirit, and at that time the world could not accept him, because it neither saw him nor knew him.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
No, the Bible does not say that that Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit and was promised to the disciples of 2000 years ago. That is just how you interpret those verses because that is what you already believe.
John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
You believe that verse above is saying that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit, but the verse does not say “the Advocate which is the Holy Spirit.”
It could just as easily mean that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in Jesus’ name when He sends Baha’u’llah.
That is not a reason to believe that the same Jesus who said He was no more in the world in more than one verse will return to the world. That is just how you interpret those verses because that is what you already believe.
The Bible does not say that that the same physical body of Jesus was taken up to heaven and will return from heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
These verses say that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return from heaven, from the heaven of the Will of God.
The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
No, you did not show that. You interpreted the verses to try to make them agree with the Christian understanding.
Apparently you don’t get it, but I do not understand WHY you don’t get it, as every Christian knows that Pentecost was not in the last days, as the Day of Pentecost and the last days are in completely different time periods.
I am learning some new things I did not know, by looking them up on the internet.
“One of the most significant events recorded in the Bible happened on the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came down to permanently indwell the disciples, and the church age began….
The coming of the Holy Spirit was also to give power to the believers.
When Pentecost occurred, the Holy Spirit came as promised, baptizing the believers into Christ and giving them power to be His witnesses.
Beginning Of The Church Age
Pentecost was also the birthday of the church. The Old Testament period of law was concluded and a new era began. Those who believe in Jesus as Messiah during this present age become part of the body (or bride) of Christ known as the church. The church age began at Pentecost and will conclude when Christ comes back for His own.”
What Happened on the Day of Pentecost?
The coming of the Holy Spirit was also to give power to the believers.
When Pentecost occurred, the Holy Spirit came as promised, baptizing the believers into Christ and giving them power to be His witnesses.
Beginning Of The Church Age
Pentecost was also the birthday of the church. The Old Testament period of law was concluded and a new era began. Those who believe in Jesus as Messiah during this present age become part of the body (or bride) of Christ known as the church. The church age began at Pentecost and will conclude when Christ comes back for His own.”
What Happened on the Day of Pentecost?
The church age ends when Christ returns. Those are the last days and what the Bible refers to as the end of the age.
Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Of course, Baha’is believe that Christ already returned so the Church Age ended in 1844 and the new age began, that which Baha’is refer to as the Age of Fulfillment, since all the Bible prophecies will be fulfilled during this new age, which is the Dawn of a New Era.