Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[Skywalker]

There will always be sadness in a physical world. Only in the spiritual world will there be no more sadness, for those who are close to God.

I do not know why you keep saying that, as if I am going to believe it. I never will.

Jesus was teaching salvation by works, and then Paul changed that teaching to salvation by grace.
That was Baha'u'llah.

How many times do I have to post the same verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

The context of those verses was not about there being or not being second coming of Jesus. One could say that they weren't referring to Jesus not returning because Jesus wasn't going to return, but that's adding an assumption into the text. The conclusion you get from the text is that the context isn't about the return of Jesus or the idea that people were teaching a false doctrine about the return of Jesus.

Why would there be sadness in a physical world with no death? Paul and Thomas saw the risen Jesus, and Revelation 1:9 and 1:20 Jesus is described as appearing in glorified form.

Jesus didn't teach salvation works. No one is good but God alone means that we are sinners who cannot be saved by good works.

 

[Trailblazer]

The context of those verses was not about there being or not being second coming of Jesus. One could say that they weren't referring to Jesus not returning because Jesus wasn't going to return, but that's adding an assumption into the text. The conclusion you get from the text is that the context isn't about the return of Jesus or the idea that people were teaching a false doctrine about the return of Jesus.

Sorry, you lost me on that paragraph.

Why would there be sadness in a physical world with no death? Paul and Thomas saw the risen Jesus, and Revelation 1:9 and 1:20 Jesus is described as appearing in glorified form.

There is no such thing as physical world with no death because everything physical dies eventually. But aside from death, there is a lot of other suffering that is a product of the material world; accidents, diseases, injuries, loss of employment. etc.

Jesus didn't teach salvation works. No one is good but God alone means that we are sinners who cannot be saved by good works.

I do not believe in the concept of saved because I do not believe there is anything to be saved from, except our lower selfish nature. I consider that our sinful nature. No, I do not believe we can overcome our sinful nature by good works alone. Below is what Baha'is are enjoined to do, the two most important things, called The Twin Duties. The first duty would be the same as for a Christian whose first duty is to recognize and believe in Jesus.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

 

[Brian2]

There is no resurrection of dead bodies (physical resurrection). Everyone who dies (which is everyone, since we will all die eventually) will resurrect in a spiritual body, with their same soul.

https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/1_Corinthians_15.44.php

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would God manifest himself outside of becoming Jesus? The Bible mentions to adding to the word of God. I don't believe that God would have new revelations after the book of Revelation. Since God does all things decently and in order, incarnating as multiple people doesn't seem to have a need. Jesus appeared as a pillar of cloud and fire to the Jews in Exodus, and he appeared to Daniel in spiritual form, but even in his resurrection and appearing to the apostle John on Patmos, Jesus only appeared in the form of his glorified body.

Jesus revelation was for old times. We live in a new Age, which requires a new set of teachings to deal with the problems of our time, and tell us how to live so, we can be spiritually happy.

 

[Skywalker]

Sorry, you lost me on that paragraph.

There is no such thing as physical world with no death because everything physical dies eventually. But aside from death, there is a lot of other suffering that is a product of the material world; accidents, diseases, injuries, loss of employment. etc.

I do not believe in the concept of saved because I do not believe there is anything to be saved from, except our lower selfish nature. I consider that our sinful nature. No, I do not believe we can overcome our sinful nature by good works alone. Below is what Baha'is are enjoined to do, the two most important things, called The Twin Duties. The first duty would be the same as for a Christian whose first duty is to recognize and believe in Jesus.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

It's possible that those things only exist in the physical world due to the fall of man, or that the earth rebuilt will have a heavenly city that doesn't have those things. Some people believe that death exists because of sin. I don't discount the possibility of a non earthly heaven, though.

There are other sins besides being selfish that we need salvation from. Jesus said that no one is good but God alone. We Have Sinned

. People categorize sin, deciding which sins are worse than others. God doesn't do that. Prayerlessness is akin to atheism, murder and adultery. If we don't pray, God is going to hold us accountable for disobeying his command to pray without ceasing (1st Thessalonians 5:17).

We can overcome our sinful nature in the context of striving but not in the context of being perfect.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus revelation was for old times. We live in a new Age, which requires a new set of teachings to deal with the problems of our time, and tell us how to live so, we can be spiritually happy.

Why would we need new teachings? Jesus would never add to his words. The teachings of Jesus are as relevant to us today are they were to the people in Bible times. Jesus came to teach us how to live. There didn't need to be other messengers.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why would we need new teachings?

Because our age has its own conditions and problems, which are different from the time of Jesus. We need a new world order.

For example Jesus teachings lack, equality between all races. It has no say regarding black people right. It does not much say about equality of men and women. It does not give much guidance how to make a more fair world to eliminate extreme poverty and extreme wealth...etc.


We can see how Baha'u'llah's teachings are relevant to our time and how they are needed. To be examined..

Jesus would never add to his words.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to teach us more?

The teachings of Jesus are as relevant to us today are they were to the people in Bible times. Jesus came to teach us how to live. There didn't need to be other messengers.

Life in our time is more complex and different considering the advancement of science and technology, and the fact that it is now a more universal and international world, comparing to the time of Jesus when the world was not as connected.
Bahaullah teachings are geared more toward a universal world.

For example the way women are treated in the Bible, is not appropriate to our time:

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." 1 cor 14:34


Or such a saying regarding divorce:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Matthew 19:9

Consider many people cannot get along really are in trouble with each other. If they are not allowed to divorce, it is more problem than benefit.


Or what Jesus said:

"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them."

In our Age, this behavior cannot be applied. It encourages injustice and gives power to the tyrant.

 

[Skywalker]

Because our age has its own conditions and problems, which are different from the time of Jesus. We need a new world order.

For example Jesus teachings lack, equality between all races. It has no say regarding black people right. It does not much say about equality of men and women. It does not give much guidance how to make a more fair world to eliminate extreme poverty and extreme wealth...etc.


We can see how Baha'u'llah's teachings are relevant to our time and how they are needed. To be examined..




Why wouldn't Jesus want to teach us more?



Life in our time is more complex and different considering the advancement of science and technology, and the fact that it is now a more universal and international world, comparing to the time of Jesus when the world was not as connected.
Bahaullah teachings are geared more toward a universal world.

For example the way women are treated in the Bible, is not appropriate to our time:

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." 1 cor 14:34


Or such a saying regarding divorce:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Matthew 19:9

Consider many people cannot get along really are in trouble with each other. If they are not allowed to divorce, it is more problem than benefit.


Or what Jesus said:

"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them."

In our Age, this behavior cannot be applied. It encourages injustice and gives power to the tyrant.

Turning the other cheek, in the sermon on the mount, is a universal moral principle. There being a Messiah

Jesus loved everyone. He didn't favor white people over black people.

The teachings of Baha'u'llah that are true doesn't mean that he was a prophet of God. I believe that Buddha said some truth, like it's good not to desire things. The Bible says that many things are permissible but not beneficial. I believe that people divorcing is not beneficial. You don't need Buddha's teachings to know that people having hobbies can be a waste of time.

Jesus fulfilled his mission of dying for our sins and teaching us how to live. When he returns he will also teach us how to live, when he rules the nations righteously from Jerusalem.

I believe that women aren't supposed to be pastors because women leading men spiritually was what caused original sin and after Eve tempted Adam to take the apple, women lost the right to be spiritual leaders over men.

I believe that divorce is not God's will. Matthew 19:5-10

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

I believe that couples who don't get along could separate without divorcing.

Jesus saying turn the other cheek doesn't mean that it's wrong for a nation to go to war. He was telling parables about forgiving people who wronged us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is there a Bible contradiction in 1 Corinthians 15:44?
Problem: Paul declares that the resurrection body is a “spiritual body” (1 Cor. 15:44), but a spiritual body is an immaterial body. However, elsewhere the Bible says Jesus’ resurrection body was made of “flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39).

I guess you have to decide whether to believe fictional stories men wrote or whether to believe Paul, who makes logical sense.

Solution: A “spiritual” body denotes an immortal body, not an immaterial body.

That is no solution since material bodies cannot be immortal.

immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.
immortal means - Google Search

A “spiritual” body is one dominated by the spirit, not one devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos (translated “spiritual” here) means a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by flesh that perishes, but by the spirit that endures (1 Cor. 15:50–58). So “spiritual body” does not mean immaterial and invisible, but immortal and imperishable. This is clear from several facts:

Nice try fella but all flesh perishes. No flesh is immortal.

A spiritual body is not invisible. It is made of material but it is not made of the same kind of material as a physical body...

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Problem solved.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't discount the possibility of a non earthly heaven, though.

That's good, because that is what you are going to get.

There are other sins besides being selfish that we need salvation from. Jesus said that no one is good but God alone. We Have Sinned

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Womens Page/we_have_sinned.htmBut it is selfishness that leads to sin. Name one sin that is not caused by selfishness.

We can overcome our sinful nature in the context of striving but not in the context of being perfect.

That's true, we can never be perfect, we can only strive towards perfection.

 

[Skywalker]

That's good, because that is what you are going to get.
But it is selfishness that leads to sin. Name one sin that is not caused by selfishness.

That's true, we can never be perfect, we can only strive towards perfection.

I agree with that because all sin is rooted in pride.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.
Jesus fulfilled his mission of dying for our sins and teaching us how to live.

In our view Jesus original spiritual teachings are forgotten and misunderstood. It needs renewal.
It was like a good Tree. In due time it gave fruits. But now the Tree is too old and cannot give fruits anymore. Baha'u'llah planted a new Tree, which essentially is the same Tree, but it is fruitful because it is not old.

 

[Skywalker]

In our view Jesus original spiritual teachings are forgotten and misunderstood. It needs renewal.
It was like a good Tree. In due time it gave fruits. But now the Tree is too old and cannot give fruits anymore. Baha'u'llah planted a new Tree, which essentially is the same Tree, but it is fruitful because it is not old.

The Bible teaches that women cant't be pastors because of the order of creation and original sin. It's not about who's smarter or who's better or who is more competent, its about doing all things decently and in order.

 

[Trailblazer]

In our view Jesus original spiritual teachings are forgotten and misunderstood. It needs renewal.
It was like a good Tree. In due time it gave fruits. But now the Tree is too old and cannot give fruits anymore. Baha'u'llah planted a new Tree, which essentially is the same Tree, but it is fruitful because it is not old.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible teaches that women cant't be pastors because of the order of creation and original sin. It's not about who's smarter or who's better or who is more competent, its about doing all things decently and in order.

The Bible does not teach original sin.... Christianity teaches that.
Paul did say that women should be subjugated to men, but that is one of the teachings that needed to be updated for the new age, so it was updated by Baha'u'llah.

Selected Readings on The equality of men and women

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The word of God fulfils its own prophecies.

Correct and as such the fulfillment becomes the answer.

We have the choice to accept, to be born again, or to reject that fulfillment.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have looked at the words of Baha'u'llah. I think he does not speak the language of the messengers.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43

That is the Quandary we face. I am not here to change the way you want to see it.

I just offer that many see, and many more will see, that Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), is the language of the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

The Bible does not teach original sin.... Christianity teaches that.
Paul did say that women should be subjugated to men, but that is one of the teachings that needed to be updated for the new age, so it was updated by Baha'u'llah.

Selected Readings on The equality of men and women

Eastern Christians dont believe in original sin. It's not important where our sin nature comes from. I also believe that the order of creation makes women pastors wrong.

The Bible doesn't talk about women submitting to men outside of church or marital settings. I don't think women not being spiritual leaders over men is a teaching that Paul invented. Even in the Old Testament there were no priestesses. All of the apostles were men. There is no reference in the New Testament of a church with a woman elder.

 

[Trailblazer]

Eastern Christians dont believe in original sin. It's not important where our sin nature comes from. I also believe that the order of creation makes women pastors wrong.

The Bible doesn't talk about women submitting to men outside of church or marital settings. I don't think women not being spiritual leaders over men is a teaching that Paul invented. Even in the Old Testament there were no priestesses. All of the apostles were men. There is no reference in the New Testament of a church with a woman elder.

This is a new day, and now it is known that women and men are equal. They are not the same, but they have equal abilities to lead. Christianity needs to come out of the dark ages. There is no way I would ever submit to my husband and he would never expect me to.

Paul's letter to the Ephesians, rendered in the New International Version of the Bible as: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour.Sep 27, 2000

TO LOVE, HONOR AND OBEY - Chicago Tribune

 

[Skywalker]

This is a new day, and now it is known that women and men are equal. They are not the same, but they have equal abilities to lead. Christianity needs to come out of the dark ages. There is no way I would ever submit to my husband and he would never expect me to.

Paul's letter to the Ephesians, rendered in the New International Version of the Bible as: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour.Sep 27, 2000

TO LOVE, HONOR AND OBEY - Chicago Tribune

I believe that women can teach at sunday schools and at youth groups. Women can teach at youth groups but when i used to go to youth group their Bible studies were only for the women there. There's a difference between spontaneous teaching and a woman being a shepherd or mentor to men.