Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[Skywalker]

I do not know what you are referring to.

Jesus appeared in a glorified body, like he did to Thomas. Why would you believe the Bible but reject what it says about who Jesus is?

 

[Trailblazer]

But we could ask the question, what is a spiritual body? Is it a spirit body?
Paul said the body is redeemed.
Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

If you want to know what redemption of bodies means, please refer to this post I wrote to Skywalker. #515 Trailblazer

I worked long and hard on that post. Paul had everything right.
The NLT translation is the best one I have seen. It is much clearer and easier to understand than the KJV.

 

[Skywalker]

This is a belief based upon a story, a gospel account. It is not factual.

The Bible doesn't support the belief of the resurrection of Jesus being an allegory. That is mentioned in Bahai scriptures, and the Bible says not to add to God's word.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus appeared in a glorified body, like he did to Thomas. Why would you believe the Bible but reject what it says about who Jesus is?

Anyone can write stories....

The body is not "who Jesus is." His soul is who He is.
IF Jesus did appear to the disciples and all those other people, it would have been in a spiritual body that looked real.
Since Jesus was perfectly capable of miracles, why don't you think he could not make Himself appear real?

 

[Skywalker]

Anyone can write stories....

The body is not "who Jesus is." His soul is who He is.
IF Jesus did appear to the disciples and all those other people, it would have been in a spiritual body that looked real.
Since Jesus was perfectly capable of miracles, why don't you think he could not make Himself appear real?

Why do you doubt the authenticity of the apostle John?

There was no reason for Jesus to have a new body. God does all things decently and in order.

The body of Jesus was both physical and spiritual.

Since Jesus is capable of miracles, he was capable of appearing to the apostles in a glorified version of his physical body.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible doesn't support the belief of the resurrection of Jesus being an allegory. That is mentioned in Bahai scriptures, and the Bible says not to add to God's word.

The Bible doesn't support the belief of the resurrection of Jesus being a fact. It is written to sound that way, but many stories are written to sound true; but sounding true that does not make stories into historical facts. Nobody knows why it was written that way, but certainly it is known that many of the gospel accounts of the resurrection contradict each other, which leads one to conclude it was just stories men wrote differently.

The Baha'i Faith does not add anything to the Bible, it just explains a few things that were misunderstood.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

That is not correct, Baha’u’llah fulfilled many prophecies.

Regards Tony

I have looked at the words of Baha'u'llah. I think he does not speak the language of the messengers.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43


Baha'u'llah does not speak the wheel of the law.

His keywords do not fit in the gates of the city that has come down from heaven (long ago).

 

[Trailblazer]

There was no reason for Jesus to have a new body. God does all things decently and in order.

The reason is because when the physical body dies, everyone gets a spiritual body. Jesus was no exception.

The body of Jesus was both physical and spiritual.

First His body was physical, then after He died it was spiritual, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15.

Since Jesus is capable of miracles, he was capable of appearing to the apostles in a glorified version of his physical body.

There is no such thing as a glorified version of a physical body. That is just a Christian belief that came about from misunderstanding what Paul said.

 

[Skywalker]

The Bible doesn't support the belief of the resurrection of Jesus being a fact. It is written to sound that way, but many stories are written to sound true; but sounding true that does not make stories into historical facts. Nobody knows why it was written that way, but certainly it is known that many of the gospel accounts of the resurrection contradict each other, which leads one to conclude it was just stories men wrote differently.

The Baha'i Faith does not add anything to the Bible, it just explains a few things that were misunderstood.

Therefore the intent of the Bible was to support the resurrection of Jesus. I didn't say sounding true makes the stories historical facts. The gospel writers are supported by the Bahai doctrine because Bahai believe in the Bible. What's the difference between believing that the gospel writers intended to write about the physical resurrection of Jesus, and believing them recording the teachings of Jesus, who came to teach us how to live? A lot of little details in the four gospels are written differently.

What do you believe was misunderstood about the Bible?

 

[Skywalker]

The reason is because when the physical body dies, everyone gets a spiritual body. Jesus was no exception.

First His body was physical, then after He died it was spiritual, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15.

There is no such thing as a glorified version of a physical body. That is just a Christian belief that came about from misunderstanding what Paul said.

Revelation talks about two resurrections. How Many Resurrections Will There Be?

I believe that eventually everyone will have both a physical and a spiritual body.

1st Corinthians 15 doesn't mean that the body of Jesus wasn't also physical.

The Apostle John who wrote the Gospel of John saw the glorified version of the spiritual body of Jesus when he appeared on the island of Patmos.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Nevertheless, 2 at the same time seems to go against your idea even if they were not at the fore at the same time.

Yes, I agree. But there is only One Sun, who is God. He first manifested Himself in the Bab. Then the Sun was hidden for 3 years.. Then He manifested Himself in Baha'u'llah.
The Bab or Bahaullah are Mirrors. God is the Sun. The Rise of the Sun in Bahai scriptures is when the mission begins with a new Revelation.
The Bab and Baha'u'llah did not have Revelations at the same time.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, I agree. But there is only One Sun, who is God. He first manifested Himself in the Bab. Then He manifested Himself in Baha'u'llah. The Bab or Bahaullah are Mirrors. God is the Sun. The Rise of the Sun in Bahai scriptures is when the mission begins with a new Revelation.
The Bab and Baha'u'llah did not have Revelations at the same time.

Why would God manifest himself outside of becoming Jesus? The Bible mentions to adding to the word of God. I don't believe that God would have new revelations after the book of Revelation. Since God does all things decently and in order, incarnating as multiple people doesn't seem to have a need. Jesus appeared as a pillar of cloud and fire to the Jews in Exodus, and he appeared to Daniel in spiritual form, but even in his resurrection and appearing to the apostle John on Patmos, Jesus only appeared in the form of his glorified body.

 

[Trailblazer]

Therefore the intent of the Bible was to support the resurrection of Jesus. I didn't say sounding true makes the stories historical facts. The gospel writers are supported by the Bahai doctrine because Bahai believe in the Bible. What's the difference between believing that the gospel writers intended to write about the physical resurrection of Jesus, and believing them recording the teachings of Jesus, who came to teach us how to live? A lot of little details in the four gospels are written differently.

The difference between believing that the gospel writers intended to write about the physical resurrection of Jesus, and believing them recording the teachings of Jesus is the beliefs that resulted from believing that the resurrection stories are true and that Jesus really rose from the dead.

Millions of people believed that Jesus rose from the dead, and that led to all kinds of other false beliefs, like the belief that Jesus is still alive in heaven in a glorified physical body and will return to earth someday, and the belief that when Jesus returns Christians will also rise from the dead whereas everyone else will go to hell and not be saved.... One false belief leads to another one, and it becomes like an out of control snow-sled barrelling downhill, a broken dam with water flooding all that is on the land below. The primary reason that Christians have rejected Baha'u'llah is because they are waiting for the same man Jesus to return from heaven to earth in the glorified resurrection body they believe He has.

Contrast that with the teachings of Jesus; all those teachings are for the good of the people, to guide people to live a moral life so that they can spend an eternity in heaven.

What do you believe was misunderstood about the Bible?

Many things, the list would be long, but the most important thing that was misunderstood, the thing that had the most serious consequences, was that the return of Christ was going to be the return of the same man Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

The difference between believing that the gospel writers intended to write about the physical resurrection of Jesus, and believing them recording the teachings of Jesus is the beliefs that resulted from believing that the resurrection stories are true and that Jesus really rose from the dead.

Millions of people believed that Jesus rose from the dead, and that led to all kinds of other false beliefs, like the belief that Jesus is still alive in heaven in a glorified physical body and will return to earth someday, and the belief that when Jesus returns Christians will also rise from the dead whereas everyone else will go to hell and not be saved.... One false belief leads to another one, and it becomes like an out of control snow-sled barrelling downhill, a broken dam with water flooding all that is on the land below. The primary reason that Christians have rejected Baha'u'llah is because they are waiting for the same man Jesus to return from heaven to earth in the glorified resurrection body they believe He has.

Contrast that with the teachings of Jesus; all those teachings are for the good of the people, to guide people to live a moral life so that they can spend an eternity in heaven.

Many things, the list would be long, but the most important thing that was misunderstood, the thing that had the most serious consequences, was that the return of Christ was going to be the return of the same man Jesus.

That's supported by the book of Acts and Daniel. Daniel saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds, and Daniel saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God the Father. The Bible talks about the resurrection of the dead.

Who Will be Resurrected from the Dead?

The First Resurrection (only for believers)

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6).

"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Romans 4:10).

"For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2nd Corinthians 5:10).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1st Corinthians 15:51,52).

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1st Thessalonians 4:13-18).


The Second Resurrection (only for the Damned)

The unsaved will be resurrected to stand trial at The Great White Throne of Judgment before God. This judgment occurs at the END of the 1,000 year (Millennial) reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem. Jesus will literally reign over the earth as King during the Millennium Period. At the end of this period, the unsaved throughout history will be damned to the Lake of Fire, as well as the Beast, the false prophet, and the Antichrist. Death will be no more. This will be the Final Judgment. This will be a Criminal Court for the unsaved to be tried and sentenced to Hell for all eternity...

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" (Revelation 20:12,13).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

Whether saved or unsaved, EVERY person's body will physically rise from the dead...

Isaiah 26:19, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

John 5:28-29, " Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION."

It is our own sin that puts us in the grave, Christ's work of atonement can deliver us...

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Eternity only has two addresses—life (Heaven) or damnation (Lake of Fire). Wherever you end up, you will live there forever! This fact is found in both the Old and New Testaments...

Daniel 12:2, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Matthew 25:46, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

All people of all lands of all times shall stand before their Creator in judgment.

It doesn't matter where your remains are, God will put you back together; Is there anything to hard for the Lord? No, of course not! Do you remember when Lazarus died and stank with rot after four days, yet Jesus raised up Lazarus healthy and whole?

1. John 11:39, "Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days."
   
   
   
2. John 11:43,44, "And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."
   

 

[Skywalker]

The difference between believing that the gospel writers intended to write about the physical resurrection of Jesus, and believing them recording the teachings of Jesus is the beliefs that resulted from believing that the resurrection stories are true and that Jesus really rose from the dead.

Millions of people believed that Jesus rose from the dead, and that led to all kinds of other false beliefs, like the belief that Jesus is still alive in heaven in a glorified physical body and will return to earth someday, and the belief that when Jesus returns Christians will also rise from the dead whereas everyone else will go to hell and not be saved.... One false belief leads to another one, and it becomes like an out of control snow-sled barrelling downhill, a broken dam with water flooding all that is on the land below. The primary reason that Christians have rejected Baha'u'llah is because they are waiting for the same man Jesus to return from heaven to earth in the glorified resurrection body they believe He has.

Contrast that with the teachings of Jesus; all those teachings are for the good of the people, to guide people to live a moral life so that they can spend an eternity in heaven.

Many things, the list would be long, but the most important thing that was misunderstood, the thing that had the most serious consequences, was that the return of Christ was going to be the return of the same man Jesus.

The resurrection body is why heaven will be perfect. Can We Sin After Receiving Our Glorified Body?

QUESTION: Can we sin after receiving a glorified body at the rapture? Can a glorified Christian sin?

ANSWER: No, it will not be possible to sin in our glorified body. Romans 6:23 says that “the wages of sin is death.” Thus, we must die physically one day. Jesus paid for our sins, so that we don't have to die the second death in the Lake of Fire forever (Revelation 20:6). I love the saying that goes: “If we're born once, we die twice; but if we're born twice, we die once.” That is, if we are born-again, spiritually, which is the second birth, then we only die the physical death, but not the second death.

Spiritual death and second death are not the same thing. All humans are born spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-2). The “second death” is spending all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). So we are all spiritually dead until we get saved. Once saved, we are spiritually alive forever, and cannot lose God's salvation, which is through faith alone in Jesus Christ (Philippians 3:9).

At the Rapture, we will receive a glorified body like unto the Lord's glorified body (Philippians 3:21; 1st Corinthians 15:52-57). We will be as the angels without reproductive organs. The idea that angels mated with human women in Noah's time is heresy. Angels cannot mate with humans. It is impossible. Although angels always appeared in masculine form, the Bible is clear that they do not marry nor reproduce. The human "flesh" is one of the believer's three enemies: The Devil, the world and the flesh. This is what someone has called “the Devil's 3-string banjo of damnation.” Of these three enemies, I believe the flesh is the greatest threat. 1st Corinthians 15:52-27 teaches that at the Rapture, mortality shall put on immortality. If we could sin in our resurrected body, then we would have to die again.

The “sting” of death is mentioned in this Scripture passage. A bee can only sting a person one time, because afterward the bee dies. Death can only sting a person one time. But our dear precious Lord Jesus Christ took the sting out of death, in that every believer has (presently) eternal life, so we don't really die, we simply leave the body (“tabernacle,” 2nd Corinthians 5:1-10). Death for the believer is a graduation of sorts, from this earthly life to Heaven. I believe there will be no break in conscience at death. In Luke 16:19-31, the unsaved rich man went straight to Hell to be tormented in fire; but saved Lazarus was escorted by angels to Paradise. I believe when a believer dies, we will be escorted by angels to Heaven. So death for the believer is not a horrifying ordeal, because of the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus took the “sting” out of death, so that the believer has no cause to worry or fear.

1st John 3:2, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” One day we will be just like Jesus, perfect and immortal, by His grace

Jesus appeared to Paul and the apostle John in the same glorified resurrection body that he appeared to Thomas with.

Jesus said that no one is good but God alone. Jesus didn't teach that we can be saved by good works. That's what Islam believes.

The Old Tstament never talks about two messiahs. That is a belief within Judaism. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Most of Jesus's teachings were intelligible and acceptable in terms of Second Temple Judaism; what set Christians apart from Jews was their faith in Christ as the resurrected messiah.[19] While Christianity acknowledges only one ultimate Messiah, Judaism can be said to hold to a concept of multiple messiahs. The two most relevant are the Messiah ben Joseph and the traditional Messiah ben David. Some scholars have argued that the idea of two messiahs, one suffering and the second fulfilling the traditional messianic role, was normative to ancient Judaism, predating Jesus. Jesus would have been viewed by many as one or both.

Jesus fit the qualifications of the Messiah, but people rejected him because he didn't fit their expectations of a political leader Messiah, which come from tradition and not the Old Testament.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's supported by the book of Acts and Daniel. Daniel saw the Son of Man coming on the clouds, and Daniel saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God the Father. The Bible talks about the resurrection of the dead.

Who Will be Resurrected from the Dead?

The book of Acts does not say the same man Jesus will return.
The Son of man coming on the clouds was Baha'u'llah.
I already explained what I believe the Bible means when it talks about the Resurrection of the Dead.

You can interpret the Bible anyway you want to in order to make it mean most anything.
That does not mean it means what you believe it means.

 

[Skywalker]

The book of Acts does not say the same man Jesus will return.
The Son of man coming on the clouds was Baha'u'llah.
I already explained what I believe the Bible means when it talks about the Resurrection of the Dead.

You can interpret the Bible anyway you want to in order to make it mean most anything.
That does not mean it means what you believe it means.

The beliefs about the Messiah being first and foremost a political leader largely came from Jewish tradition and not the Scriptures The early Christians were Jewish and didn't believe in the Rabinnic Judaism concept of the Messiah. They followed a different form of Judaism than modern Judaism and also practiced a different form of Christianity than Nicene Christianity.. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish messianism has its root in the apocalyptic literature of the 2nd century BCE to the 1st century CE, promising a future "anointed" leader or Messiah to resurrect the Israelite "Kingdom of God", in place of the foreign rulers of the time. According to Shaye J.D. Cohen, Jesus's failure to establish an independent Israel, and his death at the hands of the Romans, caused many Jews to reject him as the Messiah.[24][note 3] Jews at that time were expecting a military leader as a Messiah, such as Bar Kokhba.

Early Christians regarded Jesus to be the Messiah, the promised king who would restore the Jewish kingdom and independence. Jewish messianism has its root in the apocalyptic literature of the 2nd century BCE to 1st century BCE, promising a future "anointed" leader or messiah to restore the Israelite "Kingdom of God", in place of the foreign rulers of the time. This corresponded with the Maccabean Revolt directed against the Seleucid Empire. Following the fall of the Hasmonean kingdom, it was directed against the Roman administration of Judea Province, which, according to Josephus, began with the formation of the Zealots and Sicarii during the Census of Quirinius (6 CE), although full-scale open revolt did not occur until the First Jewish–Roman War in 66 CE.

The Book of Acts reports that the early followers continued daily Temple attendance and traditional Jewish home prayer. Other passages in the New Testament gospels reflect a similar observance of traditional Jewish piety such as fasting, reverence for the Torah and observance of Jewish holy days.

 

[Trailblazer]

The resurrection body is why heaven will be perfect. Can We Sin After Receiving Our Glorified Body?

I guess you believe everything you read on Christian websites.

I don't believe that is why heaven will be much better than earth. It will be better because we will be free of physical limitations and sadness, which is all caused by the physical world.

Jesus appeared to Paul and the apostle John in the same glorified resurrection body that he appeared to Thomas with.

Believe whatever you want to. You already know what I believe. There is no glorified resurrection body.

Jesus said that no one is good but God alone. Jesus didn't teach that we can be saved by good works. That's what Islam believes.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Old Tstament never talks about two messiahs. That is a belief within Judaism. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

No, Jews believe there was supposed to be only one Messiah, and he would fulfill all their prophecies.

Jesus fit the qualifications of the Messiah, but people rejected him because he didn't fit their expectations of a political leader Messiah, which come from tradition and not the Old Testament.

Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies for the end times Messiah, and that is why Jews rejected Him.

 

[Skywalker]

I guess you believe everything you read on Christian websites.

I don't believe that is why heaven will be much better than earth. It will be better because we will be free of physical limitations and sadness, which is all caused by the physical world.

Believe whatever you want to. You already know what I believe. There is no glorified resurrection body.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
No, Jews believe there was supposed to be only one Messiah, and he would fulfill all their prophecies.

Jesus did not fulfill the OT prophecies for the end times Messiah, and that is why Jews rejected Him.

What's wrong with physical limitations? In a perfect world there will be no sadness.

Jesus appeared to Thomas, Paul, and the apostle John in a resurrection body.

The righteous are those who have their sins covered. Jesus wasn't teaching salvation by works. If someone commits a crime, trying to bribe a righteous judge will only result in an increased sentence. The love but also justice of God is why I believe that the Bible fits together like a puzzle piece. The Bible is similar to human laws in terms of justice and consequences.

Zechariah 14:4 mentions the Messiah's second advent, when he arrives on the mount of olives. King-Returns-Zechariah-14-1-4

Jesus is supposed to fulfill the OT prophecies for the end times Messiah when he returns.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's wrong with physical limitations? In a perfect world there will be no sadness.

There will always be sadness in a physical world. Only in the spiritual world will there be no more sadness, for those who are close to God.

Jesus appeared to Thomas, Paul, and the apostle John in a resurrection body.

I do not know why you keep saying that, as if I am going to believe it. I never will.

The righteous are those who have their sins covered. Jesus wasn't teaching salvation by works. If someone commits a crime, trying to bribe a righteous judge will only result in an increased sentence. The love but also justice of God is why I believe that the Bible fits together like a puzzle piece. The Bible is similar to human laws in terms of justice and consequences.

Jesus was teaching salvation by works, and then Paul changed that teaching to salvation by grace.

Zechariah 14:4 mentions the Messiah's second advent, when he arrives on the mount of olives. King-Returns-Zechariah-14-1-4

That was Baha'u'llah.

Jesus is supposed to fulfill the OT prophecies for the end times Messiah when he returns.

How many times do I have to post the same verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.