Bakers Who Refused Lesbian Couple A Wedding Cake WILL Have To Pay $135,000

[sayak83]

You're assuming gay people aren't Christians.

Are the gay couple of this case Christians?

 

[oldbadger]

Actually you would have to chuck someone off of your bus to be able to claim to be a "victim" as the Kleins did. Hmm, both fun and profitable. I'm off.

I don't mind, both plaintiff and defendant seem to be doing well out of it.
I'll have to use the Age-Discrimination laws that we have here, although I could always fall back on mental-disability i suppose...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just a bit of speculation here; maybe a potential factor in why the fine was set so high is the increasing tendency of Christian 'victims' to get their fines crowd-funded and paid for them by their fellows?

That's a thought worth considering. A pizza joint in Indiana got I think it was $250,000 dollars from such an effort, because they shut down for a few days because they got scared after an angry phone call they received after saying they were going to discriminate against homosexuals. This happened just after Pence signed his RFRA bill.

And its no good if they would start screaming about old biblical laws because their God repealed those particular laws of Moses.

That depends on who you ask. According to the Jews they don't apply to non-Jews anyways. According to Jesus no one is to think he came to do away with the laws and prophets, and that not one "tittle" is to be changed and those who say otherwise will be considered among the least in the kingdom. And then according to some Christ did away with the law, but that is more from Paul than Jesus.

 

[Revoltingest]

To have to pay that kind of money for simply standing on personal principles, when no physical hurt was done - is immoral. Even a fine of a $1000 would have made the point and been excessive.

There is no justice; she is indeed blind.

Being tolerant towards others beliefs is a personal choice when it offends all that a person believes in. I sure as hell don't think I need to be tolerant with people who support abortions, murder. At the same time, I cannot go around hurting those who disagree, but I can say, "No" - where it affects me. Thus, we have the law and public offices where the law has to be observed in what has been decided upon, and we have private businesses where private people practice their religious freedom and earn their own keep.

This has been blown up out of all proportions to serve the immoral and amoral section of society. What you do inside your 4 walls is your problem to a large degree, it is when people take those practices outside that other people get a choice on how to react to their excesses.

Government is often the greatest danger.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Government is often the greatest danger.

Depends on who you are. For me, the greatest danger is Conservative Christians and hyper-macho guys. One group prefer structural violence and the other physical violence.

 

[Revoltingest]

Depends on who you are. For me, the greatest danger is Conservative Christians and hyper-macho guys. One group prefer structural violence and the other physical violence.

Those are cromulent dangers too.
The list goes on & on.
But in my life, government has been the most dangerous of all....
- Trying to kill me in Viet Nam
- The soul & bank account crushing court system
- Thuggish cops
- The rapacious IRS
- Stomach churning speeches by dang near every politician

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Are the gay couple of this case Christians?

Beats me. The point, however, is that the baker didn't even ask before excluding them, and, further, doesn't make such distinctions against members of other equally "unChristian" groups.

 

[sayak83]

Beats me. The point, however, is that the baker didn't even ask before excluding them, and, further, doesn't make such distinctions against members of other equally "unChristian" groups.

I understand. My point was that the idea that Jesus would have acted differently may not actually hold water.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I understand. My point was that the idea that Jesus would have acted differently may not actually hold water.

The big difference I think would be that Jesus probably wouldn't have turned them away, and while he may not have served them he likely would have offered them a condescending parable about their sins barring them from his father.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I understand. My point was that the idea that Jesus would have acted differently may not actually hold water.

The Jesus of the Bible would have acted differently: regardless of his opinions on homosexuality, he would have never started or run a business.

 

[oldbadger]

That depends on who you ask. According to the Jews they don't apply to non-Jews anyways. According to Jesus no one is to think he came to do away with the laws and prophets, and that not one "tittle" is to be changed and those who say otherwise will be considered among the least in the kingdom. And then according to some Christ did away with the law, but that is more from Paul than Jesus.

True, yep, and yes....
Thing is, as I'm sure you would agree, many societies are moving forward into decent acceptance of other's needs, wants, drives, sexualities, disabilities, races, genders, colours, ages and partnerships and where self-righteous bigots can't follow, then they're going to fall foul of our new legislations which are not going to budge for such individual's prejudiced judgements.

Over here we are often astonished at the amounts of US Court's punitive fines but if it will encourage such bigotry to end, then, great!

 

[FearGod]

Court rules Oregon bakers who refused to make lesbian couple a wedding cake WILL have to pay them $135,000 in damages

Owners of the since-closed Gresham bakery Aaron and Melissa Klein had refused to make a wedding cake for Rachel and Laurel Bowman-Cryer
An appellate court Thursday upheld a penalty against the bakery owners and they will now have to pay the lesbian couple $135,000
Rachel and Laurel Bowman-Cryer praised the ruling saying: 'Oregon will not allow a 'Straight Couples Only' sign to be hung in bakeries or other stores'

An appellate court Thursday upheld a penalty against Oregon bakery owners who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding almost five years ago.

The owners of the since-closed Gresham bakery - Aaron and Melissa Klein - argued that state Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian violated state and federal laws by forcing them to pay emotional-distress damages of $135,000 to the lesbian couple Rachel and Laurel Bowman-Cryer.

Their lawyers said Avakian and the state Bureau of Labor and Industries violated the Kleins' rights as artists to free speech, their rights to religious freedom and their rights as defendants to a due process.

But the Oregon Court of Appeals sided with the state Thursday, saying the Kleins failed to show the state targeted them for their religious beliefs.

The judges also found public statements made by Avakian before deciding the case did not establish a lack of impartiality.

'Today's ruling sends a strong signal that Oregon remains open to all,' Avakian said after the 62-page opinion was released Thursday.

The decision comes weeks after the U.S. Supreme Court heard arguments in the high-profile case of a Colorado baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.
source​

I can only say, good enough for them!

I wonder if he'll be fined the same if he refused to put the words "Allah is great" or if he refused
to sell a cake for a Muslim.

 

[YmirGF]

I wonder if he'll be fined the same if he refused to put the words "Allah is great" or if he refused
to sell a cake for a Muslim.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

a lot of conservative Christians would very well scream persecution and seek vengeance if it were done to them.

And that's exactly what will happen to them if the Masterpiece cake case before the Supreme Court is adjudicated in favor of the bakers. It will become legal to discriminate against Christians just for being Christians if one claims it violates his religious sensibilities. People will be going out of their way to do that. Why hire one, for example. Or any conservative. It will become the law to do that.

Its about someone willing to destroy the life of someone and their family simply because they were offended. That is just wrong.

I think the bakers were offended first. They obviously find homosexuality and same sex marriage to be an abomination because their God told them that He was offended by such behavior. Several people have commented on this thread about people not having a right to be offended, although they were talking about the plaintiffs, not the baker.

The law of the land is the constitution including the bill of rights which guarantees the freedom of religion

It also guarantees freedom from religion.

And the law defines the limits of that freedom, not the believer. If he is told that he is legally free to discriminate, then he is. If he is told that he cannot, then he doesn't have that freedom, although he will have others. He is free to bake the cake, or refuse and pay the fine, or close his business.

Freedom isn't unlimited, and it isn't always free.

 

[Revoltingest]

How privileged you are. I'd love for that to be the biggest concerns of my life.

Oh, how the privileged cannot see their own.
You were never even eligible for the draft, let alone to be so during
a war which killed tens of thousands of guys who didn't want to
be there, but were under threat of prosecution & imprisonment.

Kids these days....they just don't appreciate how good they have it.

 

[Father Heathen]

With the "top secret" briefcase and magnifying glass, I don't think this was a terrorist themed cake.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh, how the privileged cannot see their own.
You were never even eligible for the draft, let alone to be so during
a war which killed tens of thousands of guys who didn't want to
be there, but were under threat of prosecution & imprisonment.

Kids these days....they just don't appreciate how good they have it.

It was men who came up with and enforced the idea that being a soldier is a man's job. Get mad at male sexism. I don't view being ineligible for something on the basis of sex to be a "privilege", so I'm not sure you know what a privilege is. Also, I wasn't even born during that time.

 

[Revoltingest]

It was men who came up with and enforced the idea that being a soldier is a man's job. Get mad at male sexism. I don't view being ineligible for something on the basis of sex to be a "privilege", so I'm not sure you know what a privilege is. Also, I wasn't even born during that time.

You assign culpability based upon group identity, ignoring the fact that individuals,
both men and women voted for politicians who enforced the draft & pursued the war.
But I don't buy into identity politics.
It doesn't matter to me what gender decided that I must be forced against my will to
serve in a deadly & failed war, while others avoid it scot free, eg, women, trans folk,
gays, clergy, men with low lottery numbers.

This particular man (draft lottery #34) opposed the draft, & I refused to go along with it .
I was about to flee the country before induction, when Nixon cancelled the draft.
You have the distinct privilege of not facing forced servitude in a deadly war.
You don't even have to register for the draft, unlike other men.
Appreciate that, young man.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Over here we are often astonished at the amounts of US Court's punitive fines but if it will encourage such bigotry to end, then, great!

It's a settled issue in Oregon, but such a ruling could encourage it elsewhere.

 

[columbus]

This tired old tactic from the guy who continually whines about all his
personal failings & terrible lot in life...& then cadges for donations?
Oh, puleeze.....
You really shouldn't accuse anyone else of "whining", particularly when
it's just a lame ad hominem to avoid the issue I raised. You're blind to
your own privilege, while sanctimoniously lecturing others about theirs.
Sure, sure...you might win gold in the victim olympics, but this doesn't
entitle you to belittle the tribulations of others. Check your privilege, bub.

I see much of this thread as the celebration of victimhood and entitlement.
Tom