Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[icehorse]

Methinks you're responding to too many people
who oppose your views. That can be highly tedious.
Ignore some posts (except mine), & let equanimity
improve. You'll have more time to consider how
to present your thoughts, making them clearer,
& you'll be less annoyed.

Until a better term is offered, I will use "woke activists" (WAs), and yes I understand that it's hardly a neutral term, but there we are.

There are some ideas that started out being useful, but have been warped, bent out of shape, and made destructive by WAs:

- intersectionality theory, started useful, has been distorted to the point of being destructive
- DEI, sounds good until you look into how it's been warped and misapplied
- identity politics, perhaps useful decades ago, but now extremely counterproductive

I might add to this list, but I think we can trace a lot of problems back to how these ideas have been poisoned by WAs.

Sure, it sounds useful to say that a disabled, black woman faces steeper challenges than most other people. Sure diversity, equity, and inclusion all sound good at first blush. Sure, it might sometimes be useful to use people's immutable characteristics (skin color, sex, race) in tackling societal issues.

But the devil is in the details. All of these ideas have been turned into destructive, divisive strategies and tactics by WAs. I can cite many well researched, well reviewed books and talks that dive into this problem. But I know you like to keep things brief.

So I'm using the phrase "your team" quite deliberately. Because I think everyone on your team is well intended, but that you haven't really examined how the ideas I've listed above are tacit foundations for most of your arguments.

I'd be shocked if any of the vocal members of your team will reflect on this, but my hope is that people reading this thread might.

==

I will not be responding to any more personal attacks, so rant away.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd be shocked if any of the vocal members of your team....

There you go again.
And after I offered useful advice without a hint of snark.
Are you here to discuss issues or fight over them?

 

[icehorse]

So you're concerned about people on twitter? What good is that? Sounds like a waste of time to me.

twitter??? say what?

 

[Orbit]

twitter??? say what?

Where else do you encounter these "trans activists"? Youtube? Still a waste of time.

 

[fantome profane]

dis·crim·i·na·tion

1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability.
"victims of racial discrimination"

2.
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
"discrimination between right and wrong"

What part of "we need to find win-win solutions" adds up discrimination?

The part where you want to ban transgender women from using the facilities designated for women. That is clearly discrimination, by definition.

If anything, it's you who are discriminating against women.

I am not discriminating between cis women and transgender women. I am treating them the same, and advocating for non-discrimination.

The is no question you are advocating for discrimination, treating some people differently than other people. There is no possible way to debate that fact.

The only thing you could possibly say is that you believe your discrimination is justified. I don't. I believe that what you are advocating for is unjust and prejudicial.

 

[icehorse]

The is no question you are advocating for discrimination, treating some people differently than other people. There is no possible way to debate that fact.

Do you think all same sex facilities represent discrimination? Should we get rid of same sex rest rooms and locker rooms? Should we abandon women's shelters since they discriminate against men?

I guess if you say yes to all of the above, then I'm discriminating, and happy to admit it. Women fought for and deserve women only safe spaces.

Now I suspect you'll say that trans women are women. If that's your stance then we disagree, and I suspect you and I have had that debate in the past? So I think we'll need to agree to disagree.

 

[fantome profane]

Do you think all same sex facilities represent discrimination? Should we get rid of same sex rest rooms and locker rooms? Should we abandon women's shelters since they discriminate against men?

Yes, by definition. That is why I supplied the definition for you. Some forms of discrimination are useful, some are not.

I guess if you say yes to all of the above, then I'm discriminating, and happy to admit it. Women fought for and deserve women only safe spaces.

Now I suspect you'll say that trans women are women. If that's your stance then we disagree, and I suspect you and I have had that debate in the past? So I think we'll need to agree to disagree.

I agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you think all same sex facilities represent discrimination? Should we get rid of same sex rest rooms and locker rooms? Should we abandon women's shelters since they discriminate against men?

I guess if you say yes to all of the above, then I'm discriminating, and happy to admit it. Women fought for and deserve women only safe spaces.

Now I suspect you'll say that trans women are women. If that's your stance then we disagree, and I suspect you and I have had that debate in the past? So I think we'll need to agree to disagree.

Is there no spectrum?
I say there is a range from....
A) Male who identifies as female, but hasn't transitioned.
....to....
Z) Male who had hormone treatment & surgery to become
phenotypically & mentally indistinguishable from a female?

 

[icehorse]

Is there no spectrum?
I say there is a range from....
A) Male who identifies as female, but hasn't transitioned.
....to....
Z) Male who had hormone treatment & surgery to become
phenotypically & mentally indistinguishable from a female?

Well we could start a different conversation on your A to Z continuum. Because I don't think you can actually get anywhere near Z.

But to stay on track, I would agree that it's a tricky problem. I believe win-win solutions are possible, and I believe that empathy should go both ways. Of course we want to empathize with trans people, but I also think trans women should empathize with women. That would go a long way.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well we could start a different conversation on your A to Z continuum. Because I don't think you can actually get anywhere near Z.

While the spectrum is designed to illustrate the
concept of reality, yes...Z exists, & is a well
developed surgical procedure.

MTF Vaginoplasty Gallery - Keelee MacPhee, M.D.

In male-to-female sex reassignment, Dr. MacPhee performs vaginoplasty for trans women who choose to undergo this reconstructive procedure.

keeleemacpheemd.com

But to stay on track, I would agree that it's a tricky problem. I believe win-win solutions are possible, and I believe that empathy should go both ways. Of course we want to empathize with trans people, but I also think trans women should empathize with women. That would go a long way.

I don't do empathy.
But I value optimization of justice.
It's the top design criterion for public policy.

How would you address the issue of
the Z end of the spectrum, ie, ban
"him" from women's safe spaces?

 

[We Never Know]

dis·crim·i·na·tion

1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability.
"victims of racial discrimination"

2.
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
"discrimination between right and wrong"




The part where you want to ban transgender women from using the facilities designated for women. That is clearly discrimination, by definition.


I am not discriminating between cis women and transgender women. I am treating them the same, and advocating for non-discrimination.

The is no question you are advocating for discrimination, treating some people differently than other people. There is no possible way to debate that fact.

The only thing you could possibly say is that you believe your discrimination is justified. I don't. I believe that what you are advocating for is unjust and prejudicial.

"The part where you want to ban transgender women from using the facilities designated for women. That is clearly discrimination, by definition."

I can just see a court case being played out...

Mary Jane you are suing for discrimination whereas being a transgender female you are not permitted to use the female bathroom correct?
-That's correct.

Mary Jane are you a female?
-Yes I identify as a female.

Mary Jane besides identifying in your mind as a female, are you a female physically and/or genetically?
-No

I rest my case.

 

[fantome profane]

"The part where you want to ban transgender women from using the facilities designated for women. That is clearly discrimination, by definition."

I can just see a court case being played out...

Mary Jane you are suing for discrimination whereas being a transgender female you are not permitted to use the female bathroom correct?
-That's correct.

Mary Jane are you a female?
-Yes I identify as a female.

Mary Jane besides identifying in your mind as a female, are you a female physically and/or genetically?
-No

I rest my case.

Why would this be in court in the first place? Is this a criminal court? What crime? Or is this a civil court? Who is suing and what for?

 

[Revoltingest]

"The part where you want to ban transgender women from using the facilities designated for women. That is clearly discrimination, by definition."

I can just see a court case being played out...

Mary Jane you are suing for discrimination whereas being a transgender female you are not permitted to use the female bathroom correct?
-That's correct.

Mary Jane are you a female?
-Yes I identify as a female.

Mary Jane besides identifying in your mind as a female, are you a female physically and/or genetically?
-No

I rest my case.

Such weak cases are unlikely to find support
to make their way to higher courts, where
precedents are set.
More likely......

Mary Jane you are suing for discrimination whereas being
a transgender female you are not permitted to use the female
bathroom correct?
-That's correct.

Mary Jane are you a female?
-Yes I identify as a female.

Mary Jane besides identifying in your mind as a female, are
you a female physically and/or genetically?
-Yes, just look at me.
I also have a hoohah, but under HIPAA,
you'll not get that money shot.

I'll bet even you would "hit that".
(Some macho man lingo there.)

 

[We Never Know]

Such weak cases are unlikely to find support
to make their way to higher courts, where
precedents are set.
More likely......

Mary Jane you are suing for discrimination whereas being
a transgender female you are not permitted to use the female
bathroom correct?
-That's correct.

Mary Jane are you a female?
-Yes I identify as a female.

Mary Jane besides identifying in your mind as a female, are
you a female physically and/or genetically?
-Yes, just look at me.
I also have a hoohah, but under HIPAA,
you'll not get that money shot.

I'll bet even you would "hit that".
(Some macho man lingo there.)

"I'll bet even you would "hit that".
(Some macho man lingo there.)"

Just because you would doesn't mean I would.

 

[icehorse]

While the spectrum is designed to illustrate the
concept of reality, yes...Z exists, & is a well
developed surgical procedure.

This does not take into account a few things:

- these surgeries are still quite crude and noticable.
- people getting those surgeries still have male bone sizes and density and muscle mass among other characteristics.

But again, a separate thread?

I don't do empathy.
But I value optimization of justice.
It's the top design criterion for public policy.

How would you address the issue of
the Z end of the spectrum, ie, ban
"him" from women's safe spaces?

Do you consider yourself to be a utilitarian of any sort?

 

[Revoltingest]

This does not take into account a few things:

- these surgeries are still quite crude and noticable.
- people getting those surgeries still have male bone sizes and density and muscle mass among other characteristics.

But again, a separate thread?

Perfect for responding to your post in this thread.
If being noticeably male appearing, should a
fully transitioned very female appearing trans
woman be banned from female safe spaces,
but a big boned butch lesbian be allowed?

Do you consider yourself to be a utilitarian of any sort?

Not a term I use.

 

[icehorse]

Perfect for responding to your post in this thread.
If being noticeably male appearing, should a
fully transitioned very female appearing trans
woman be banned from female safe spaces,
but a big boned butch lesbian be allowed?

I think we've been around this block before

The current system is imperfect, no doubt. But it seems that you're suggesting we might as well go ahead and make it worse for women? Am I misunderstanding?

Not a term I use.

Okay. What did you mean when you said "optimization of justice"? Can you explain how that works? thanks

 

[Revoltingest]

I think we've been around this block before

No.
So you won't answer?
Big butch lesbians would frighten women
in safe spaces more than a female appearing
trans woman.

The current system is imperfect, no doubt. But it seems that you're suggesting we might as well go ahead and make it worse for women?

No.

Am I misunderstanding?

Yes.

Okay. What did you mean when you said "optimization of justice"? Can you explain how that works? thanks

It's too broad to distil into a post.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There you go again.
And after I offered useful advice without a hint of snark.
Are you here to discuss issues or fight over them?

Comrade! Welcome! I always knew you had it in you to see how money is a repressive tool of the bourgeoisie amd free market capitalism as an anchor holding is all down amd beholden to the dying past.

 

[Revoltingest]

Comrade! Welcome! I always knew you had it in you to see how money is a repressive tool of the bourgeoisie amd free market capitalism as an anchor holding is all down amd beholden to the dying past.

WTF?