Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[icehorse]

"So how would calling pregnant trans men, trans men erase their existence"

IMO it wouldn't erase their existence but it seems if they are pregnant they no longer want to be called transgender men.
They prefer “birth-giver,” “laboring person,” “birthing person"

I'd prefer to be called benevolent dictator of the world.

But on a more serious note, all of those bits of word salad are extremely misogynistic.

 

[Revoltingest]

Offensive is taken, not given.

I'm not saying you don't have the right
to insult people. If you see a child with
a hideous deformity, you're free to
tell them so.
Why offend someone unnecessarily?

We've been over this. You still haven't answered the ER question, that's one example.

I don't see that I missed answering a question.
But I notice you haven't answered some of mine.
Again...
What harm is there in treating a trans woman
as a woman, & a trans man as a man?
Do you call @Saint Frankenstein a woman,
& @Shadow Wolf a man?

 

[InChrist]

I'd prefer to be called benevolent dictator of the world.

But on a more serious note, all of those bits of word salad are extremely misogynistic.

Definitely misogynistic.

 

[icehorse]

Definitely misogynistic.

well it's at least prejudice against women. it's more than that, but it's at least that.

 

[The Hammer]

Language is not static and is always under a constant t state of change, if you don't like it.

Take a vow of silence.

 

[Revoltingest]

well it's at least prejudice against women. it's more than that, but it's at least that.

I wonder....do you side with TERFs?

 

[InChrist]

well it's at least prejudice against women. it's more than that, but it's at least that.

I’d say it’s a usurping of women.

 

[icehorse]

I wonder....do you side with TERFs?

I don't know that they have a unified set of ideas, but - for example - if they think women's safe spaces should be reserved for women, then I side with them on that point.

 

[icehorse]

Why offend someone unnecessarily?

Indeed, why call ALL women "womb owners" or whatever?

What harm is there in treating a trans woman
as a woman, & a trans man as a man?

I thought I'd answered this, but again - sometimes it's okay, but sometimes, like in women's safe spaces or in the hospital there can be harm. Sometimes sex matters.

Do you call @Saint Frankenstein a woman,
& @Shadow Wolf a man?

I don't know them personally, I'd have to know more about them, and it would depend on the context. But if a trans woman is trying to get into a woman's safe space, I'd probably call that person a man.

 

[icehorse]

I don't see that I missed answering a question.

Now, what say you concerning my ER question?

 

[Quintessence]

Language is not static and is always under a constant t state of change, if you don't like it.

Take a vow of silence.

Or just call others what they prefer to be called because that's the respectful thing to do. Erasure is gross.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Offensive is taken, not given.
We need to find a better solution for public restrooms, indeed. But increasing the risk for all women is not a good solution.

I've recently become friends with a transwoman. She's one of the most understanding and kind people I've met so far in my life.
I've been in public restrooms with her and I'd have absolutely no problem sharing a change room with her either. I do not feel threatened, and there is no need to feel threatened. She's just there in the rest room doing the same thing everyone else is doing. Emptying her bladder or bowels, washing her hands and maybe checking her makeup or something.

There's no "increased risk to woman" that I'm aware of that anyone has ever been able to demonstrate, in allowing people to use their rest room of choice. Which is something we've all been doing since the beginning of time, at this point. I'm not sure what your sex or gender are, and I don't really care to know. But in my experience, it seems the people who are all fretting over this supposed risk of harm to women in rest rooms seems to be coming from biological men and their perceptions of what is going on in rest rooms. I've yet to hear a woman complain about being afraid to go to the washroom because a trans person might be in there. Of course, that's just my anecdotal experience, but I find it pretty interesting.

Bigots in earshot? Of what, our debate here on RF, or on a government document?

OTOH, forcibly attempting to control language IS a strategy that will create oodles of ill will.

Not just any old thing, but the biological sex of an individual IS immutable. It's baked into every cell of the body, not just one's genitalia.

So what?

We've been over this. You still haven't answered the ER question, that's one example.

Now in many situations it doesn't matter, and I have no issue. But sometimes biological sex DOES matter.

Are you an ER surgeon?

 

[icehorse]

I've recently become friends with a transwoman. She's one of the most understanding and kind people I've met so far in my life.
I've been in public restrooms with her and I'd have absolutely no problem sharing a change room with her either. I do not feel threatened, and there is no need to feel threatened. She's just there in the rest room doing the same thing everyone else is doing. Emptying her bladder or bowels, washing her hands and maybe checking her makeup or something.

There's no "increased risk to woman" that I'm aware of that anyone has ever been able to demonstrate, in allowing people to use their rest room of choice. Which is something we've all been doing since the beginning of time, at this point. I'm not sure what your sex or gender are, and I don't really care to know. But in my experience, it seems the people who are all fretting over this supposed risk of harm to women in rest rooms seems to be coming from biological men and their perceptions of what is going on in rest rooms. I've yet to hear a woman complain about being afraid to go to the washroom because a trans person might be in there. Of course, that's just my anecdotal experience, but I find it pretty interesting.

I've had conversations with many women on this topic. For the most part they feel somewhat threatened in restrooms and very threatened in locker rooms.

So, again, I'm not claiming that trans women are any more threatening than normal. But the bigger concern is normalizing people who look like men going into women's safe spaces. Perhaps your personal experiences don't include that situation, I don't know?

And yes I know there are already imperfections with our current approach. But that does not give an excuse to make things worse. Do you agree that adding dread to people's lives is an issue? Like it or not, we live in a fairly utilitarian society. Typically we do not choose to worsen the lives of the many in order to slightly improve the lives of a scant few.

Are you an ER surgeon?

No, I just have a decent understanding of the world and common sense. ER doctors must often make decisions based on statistics, correct? If a trans woman comes into an ER with abdominal pain, the doctors can rule out ovarian cysts BECAUSE biological sex matters, and in this case gender identification does not. Correct?

 

[We Never Know]

Or just call others what they prefer to be called because that's the respectful thing to do. Erasure is gross.

That's a two way street. Myself and others I know don't like being referred to as cis-males.
We are males. We were born male and stayed male. Nothing has changed about us.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I've had conversations with many women on this topic. For the most part they feel somewhat threatened in restrooms and very threatened in locker rooms.

What do they feel threatened about, exactly?

Here's a poll from 2019:

"A majority of voters would support a law requiring public institutions to allow transgender people to use bathrooms that align with their gender identity or stated sex, according to the latest Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll.

The survey found 54 percent support for such a law, with a plurality, 44 percent, saying the Supreme Court should rule on the matter rather than leaving it up to the states, at 34 percent, or Congress, at 20 percent. Fifty-two percent of respondents said they would support a Supreme Court ruling finding that transgender people have a constitutional right to use a bathroom that aligns with their identity ...

... There is also a gender gap, with 54 percent of men saying transgender people should use the bathroom of their birth sex and 54 percent of women saying transgender people should be able to use the bathroom that best aligns with their identity."

Poll: Majority support law allowing transgender people to use bathrooms that align with their identity

A majority of voters would support a law requiring public institutions to allow transgender people to use bathrooms that align with their gender identity or stated sex, according to the latest Harv…

thehill.com

And a study from 2016:

"We enumerate 1035 user comments from 190 online articles to gauge public opinion about safety and privacy when transgender women use female bathrooms. In these comments, we find that cisgender males are around 1.55× as likely to express concern about safety and privacy as cisgender females. Moreover, we find that when expressing concern (a) cisgender females are around 4× as likely as cisgender males to assert that transgender women do not directly cause their safety and privacy concerns, typically emphasizing their concerns are about ‘perverts’ posing as transgender females, and (b) cisgender males are around 1.5× as likely as cisgender females to assert that transgender females directly cause their safety and privacy concerns. We theorize that the heightened concern seen in males in these comments stems from them being more likely to view transgender females not as females, but as males who are lying or mistaken about their gender, and consequently they view themselves as protecting females from these males intruding into private, female-only spaces. This may be further exacerbated by a fear of deception and a belief that transgender people are mentally ill or ‘sick’."

Which Gender is More Concerned About Transgender Women in Female Bathrooms? - Gender Issues

We enumerate 1035 user comments from 190 online articles to gauge public opinion about safety and privacy when transgender women use female bathrooms. In these comments, we find that cisgender males are around 1.55× as likely to express concern about safety and privacy as cisgender females...

link.springer.com

In fact, it looks like the people who should feel most threatened by using their washroom of choice is .... transgender people!

"Transgender and gender-nonbinary teens face greater risk of sexual assault in schools that prevent them from using bathrooms or locker rooms consistent with their gender identity, according to a recent study.

Researchers looked at data from a survey of nearly 3,700 U.S. teens aged 13-17. The study found that 36% of transgender or gender-nonbinary students with restricted bathroom or locker room access reported being sexually assaulted in the last 12 months, according to a May 6, 2019 CNN article. Of all students surveyed, 1 out of every 4, or 25.9%, reported being a victim of sexual assault in the past year."

Transgender teens with restricted bathroom access at higher risk of sexual assault

Transgender and gender-nonbinary teens face greater risk of sexual assault in schools that prevent them from using bathrooms or locker rooms consistent with their gender identity, according to a re…

www.hsph.harvard.edu

So, again, I'm not claiming that trans women are any more threatening than normal.

You kind of are though when you claim that women feel "somewhat" threatened by their presence in a rest room.

But the bigger concern is normalizing people who look like men going into women's safe spaces. Perhaps your personal experiences don't include that situation, I don't know?

How does allowing people to use the restroom of their choice amount to normalizing "people who look like men going into women's safe spaces?"
Where are all these people who look like men that are going into women's safe spaces?

And yes I know there are already imperfections with our current approach. But that does not give an excuse to make things worse. Do you agree that adding dread to people's lives is an issue? Like it or not, we live in a fairly utilitarian society. Typically we do not choose to worsen the lives of the many in order to slightly improve the lives of a scant few.

I don't see that as what we're doing, and polling and studies don't seem to back up what you're claiming.

No, I just have a decent understanding of the world and common sense. ER doctors must often make decisions based on statistics, correct? If a trans woman comes into an ER with abdominal pain, the doctors can rule out ovarian cysts BECAUSE biological sex matters, and in this case gender identification does not. Correct?

Then leave it up to the ER doctors when the patients come in.

Honestly with this, it sounds like you're just looking for problems.

 

[Quintessence]

That's a two way street. Myself and others I know don't like being referred to as cis-males.
We are males. We were born male and stayed male. Nothing has changed about us.

I've never called anyone a cis-male/female, personally (or trans for that matter - the trans people I know I call them what they want to be called, which is usually him or her). It only makes sense to use that language in certain conversations where the additional clarification or specificity becomes relevant - one doesn't use overly-technical or academic-style terminology in lay conversations. Except if you're a nerd. Then sometimes you do it anyway and just learn to deal with the annoyed glares of everyone else around you.

 

[We Never Know]

I've never called anyone a cis-male/female, personally (or trans for that matter - the trans people I know I call them what they want to be called, which is usually him or her). It only makes sense to use that language in certain conversations where the additional clarification or specificity becomes relevant - one doesn't use overly-technical or academic-style terminology in lay conversations. Except if you're a nerd. Then sometimes you do it anyway and just learn to deal with the annoyed glares of everyone else around you.

"It only makes sense to use that language in certain conversations where the additional clarification or specificity becomes relevant"

Give an example of that.

I can give an example why it isn't needed.
I am a male. Bob is a transgender male.
Clarification is very clear.

 

[icehorse]

The survey found 54 percent support for such a law, with a plurality, 44 percent, saying the Supreme Court should rule on the matter rather than leaving it up to the states, at 34 percent, or Congress, at 20 percent. Fifty-two percent of respondents said they would support a Supreme Court ruling finding that transgender people have a constitutional right to use a bathroom that aligns with their identity ...

Back to utilitarianism - using your polls, that means that roughly half do not favor it. So if I understand you, you're proposing that that we add a little dread to half of the country's women in order to accommodate a tiny, tiny handful of people? That's not typically how things work.

You kind of are though when you claim that women feel "somewhat" threatened by their presence in a rest room.

Argh. Will you respond to my idea concerning "normalization"? With apologies, go do an internet search on "gender ****" (f##k)

I don't see that as what we're doing, and polling and studies don't seem to back up what you're claiming.

see above on utilitarianism.

Honestly with this, it sounds like you're just looking for problems.

No, trans activists are creating problems and I'm resisting them

 

[Quintessence]

"It only makes sense to use that language in certain conversations where the additional clarification or specificity becomes relevant"

Give an example of that.

I mean, basically any context where more precise details of sex and gender identity is important? Doctor's offices? College classes? Certain communities like the LGBTQ+ community? Intimate partner relationships? Establishing non-discrimination laws? Whenever the people talking to each other decide that additional precision in language is important? I'll confess I'm kind of confused and surprised by the question and don't quite understand it.

 

[The Hammer]

Except if you're a nerd. Then sometimes you do it anyway and just learn to deal with the annoyed glares of everyone else around you.

I've learned to chuckle at the looks