Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[icehorse]

Since we don't check the genitals of people entering rest rooms and it doesn't sound like you want to be checking the genitals of people entering rest rooms, then your question about what genitals the person has is rendered moot, wouldn't you say?

I've had this conversation several times on RF, and I cannot recall whether you and I have had it or not, so here goes:

The thorny problem is that some trans women do not care if they look like men. Some of them even have beards. So this means that PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE MEN are going into women's safe spaces. restroom, locker rooms, safe houses, shelters, and so on.

I don't think that having genital checkers is a good solution - hey, we agree on that point!

But further, in a locker room situation, even if a trans woman looks like a woman, if he still has his male genitalia and if he undresses in front of other women, he is disrespecting their privacy rights, possibly even their religious sensibilities.

This is a real, thorny problem.

 

[Soandso]

Have you really not heard the general (not literally punching) expressions "punching up" and "punching down" ?

If you haven't, it's a very useful concept, easily searchable on the internet.

Oh I've heard the colloquialism. My point, though, is that 99.9% of the time, no one is looking for conflict in the bathroom. They just wanna do their business and leave. That's how I view the following question:

But specifically in this case I would worry for the safety of trans men, wouldn't you?

Not any more than I would fear for their safety in any other public space. There's nothing special about the bathroom

As for this point:

If you wouldn't I think you have to go back to the idea that in general society is okay with punching up, and we realize that punching down is a problem.

There's as much possibility for conflict in the bathroom as there is anywhere else. If folks attack people in the bathroom, I hope they face legal repercussions just like I hope they would if they attacked someone in an elevator, a stairwell, or on the side walk. Controlling wether or not trans people can use the bathroom won't make it any more or less safe than any other public space regardless. The fact that bathrooms are open to the public is why parents accompany their children when they go into the bathroom in the first place; just like they accompany them when they go anywhere else in public

Banning trans people because some people feel "unsafe" around them reminds me of a time when black men were arrested for talking to white women because it made some of them feel "unsafe." This is what happens when we try to control people based on "common sense" instead of making choices based on cold hard evidence. Let's avoid discrimination - especially discrimination based on nothing but feelings

 

[Revoltingest]

Does this person still have male genitalia? If so, he should not expose his male bits in a women's locker room. If for no other reason than out of respect for women.

What of lavatories?
What if the trans woman has no male genitalia?

 

[icehorse]

My point, though, is that 99.9% of the time, no one is looking for conflict in the bathroom.

Millions of assaults happen every year - about 25% of them in public places.

Not any more than I would fear for their safety in any other public space. There's nothing special about the bathroom

Other than being visually and to some degree auditorially(?) isolated

Banning trans people because some people feel "unsafe" around them reminds me of a time when black men were arrested for talking to white women because it made some of them feel "unsafe." This is what happens when we try to control people based on "common sense" instead of making choices based on cold hard evidence. Let's avoid discrimination - especially discrimination based on nothing but feelings

The whole trans thing is BASED on feelings. So their feelings are more important than the feelings of women?

Why did women fight for safe spaces in the first place? Were they just being bigots?

 

[fantome profane]

he is disrespecting their privacy rights

I question whether the kind of privacy rights you envision exist in the kind of setting we are discussing. Perhaps you could explain more about what you think this right is.

 

[icehorse]

I question whether the kind of privacy rights you envision exist in the kind of setting we are discussing. Perhaps you could explain more about what you think this right is.

I'm not going to die on the "rights" hill. So I want to broaden that to say, rights, laws, social attitudes, and so on. From that context, we can consider "indecent exposure" as an example. It's illegal in many places, why is that? Why should we have indecent exposure laws and then suspend them in women's safe spaces?

 

[fantome profane]

I'm not going to die on the "rights" hill. So I want to broaden that to say, rights, laws, social attitudes, and so on. From that context, we can consider "indecent exposure" as an example. It's illegal in many places, why is that? Why should we have indecent exposure laws and then suspend them in women's safe spaces?

As you say, indecent exposure is illegal in many places. But in kind of settings we are talking about those laws would defeat the whole purpose, would they not? If you can't take your clothes off in a change room, it ceases to be a change room.

But we are apparently not talking about "rights", we are talking abut "social attitudes", or perhaps proper etiquette. It has always been my position that people with penises should make all due effort to avoid waving them around, and that is regardless of their gender.

It has been my experience in men's locker rooms and such that most people try to minimize exposure, and I expect (with no personal experience) that this is the same in facilities designated for females. I suspect that transgender women are less likely to expose themselves. And an incidental, accidental, brief exposure is not a violation of rights, and not even etiquette.

 

[icehorse]

As you say, indecent exposure is illegal in many places. But in kind of settings we are talking about those laws would defeat the whole purpose, would they not? If you can't take your clothes off in a change room, it ceases to be a change room.

But we are apparently not talking about "rights", we are talking abut "social attitudes", or perhaps proper etiquette. It has always been my position that people with penises should make all due effort to avoid waving them around, and that is regardless of their gender.

It has been my experience in men's locker rooms and such that most people try to minimize exposure, and I expect (with no personal experience) that this is the same in facilities designated for females. I suspect that transgender women are less likely to expose themselves. And an incidental, accidental, brief exposure is not a violation of rights, and not even etiquette.

My experience is not the same as yours in the men's locker rooms I've been in. So I don't know what's normal. But the other aspect of this is voyeurism. Again, not saying trans women are more likely to be voyeurs, but bad men will have an easier time of it.

Is it not understandable that many women do not feel comfortable disrobing in front of men unknown to them? Again, that just seems like common sense and decency.

 

[Revoltingest]

@icehorse...
Post #703 ???

 

[We Never Know]

IMO this thread is a good place for this.
Many need to learn this, including myself.

 

[fantome profane]

Is it not understandable that many women do not feel comfortable disrobing in front of men unknown to them?

That is an awkward sentence, even ignoring the double negative it still makes no sense.

What I think you are asking is "Is it understandable that many women feel uncomfortable in front of men unknown to them?. And if that is what you are asking my answer would be no, I don't understand how something unknown to them would make them uncomfortable.

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse...
Post #703 ???

By all means, throw a tantrum when you don't get a response, but by all means, feel free to ignore my questions, sigh...

 

[icehorse]

That is an awkward sentence, even ignoring the double negative it still makes no sense.

What I think you are asking is "Is it understandable that many women feel uncomfortable in front of men unknown to them?. And if that is what you are asking my answer would be no, I don't understand how something unknown to them would make them uncomfortable.

You left out the key concept - DISROBING

And thank you so much for the grammar advice - that's crucial to the conversation

 

[Revoltingest]

By all means, throw a tantrum when you don't get a response...

You weren't addressing the question
after a lengthy period of time. So I
reminded you.
Notice how hostile your post is with
the use of "tantrum". See....you are
the one who initiates hostilities.

 

[icehorse]

That is an awkward sentence, even ignoring the double negative it still makes no sense.

What I think you are asking is "Is it understandable that many women feel uncomfortable in front of men unknown to them?. And if that is what you are asking my answer would be no, I don't understand how something unknown to them would make them uncomfortable.

You left out the key concept - DISROBING

And thank you so much for the grammar advice - that's crucial to the conversation

 

[icehorse]

You weren't addressing the question
after a lengthy period of time. So I
reminded you.
Notice how hostile your post is with
the use of "tantrum". See....you are
the one who initiates hostilities.

okay, it was a tantrum-let

 

[fantome profane]

You left out the key concept - DISROBING

And thank you so much for the grammar advice - that's crucial to the conversation

Yes, clear communication is crucial to any conversation. And you have complained multiple times about people misunderstanding your point. So you are very welcome.

And I believe I dealt with disrobing in the previous post. "in kind of settings we are talking about those laws would defeat the whole purpose, would they not? If you can't take your clothes off in a change room, it ceases to be a change room."

 

[icehorse]

Yes, clear communication is crucial to any conversation. And you have complained multiple times about people misunderstanding your point. So you are very welcome.

And I believe I dealt with disrobing in the previous post. "in kind of settings we are talking about those laws would defeat the whole purpose, would they not? If you can't take your clothes off in a change room, it ceases to be a change room."

Is it not understandable that many women do not feel comfortable disrobing in front of men unknown to them? Again, that just seems like common sense and decency.

 

[fantome profane]

Is it not understandable that many women do not feel comfortable disrobing in front of men unknown to them? Again, that just seems like common sense and decency.

If the men are unknown to them, why would they feel uncomfortable?


(and why insist on using a double negative? Are you just being stubborn?)

 

[icehorse]

If the men are unknown to them, why would they feel uncomfortable?

Go ask some women, I don't know how else to respond. (And again, the key point is "disrobing" don't leave that part out of your inquiries.)

(And... really?? This has to be a joke, right? Have you never met a woman??)

(and why insist on using a double negative? Are you just being stubborn?)

it's a stylistic choice I made