Based on the premise that thoughts are spirit not substance

[savagewind]

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."

What does Pharaoh have in common with a righteous man?

I'm getting kind of tired of the "proof" people have to "prove" something or other isn't true.

If God puts it into people's heads to do evil to one another, then God is evil. Is your god evil? My God is not evil.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

What does Pharaoh have in common with a righteous man?

I'm getting kind of tired of the "proof" people have to "prove" something or other isn't true.

If God puts it into people's heads to do evil to one another, then God is evil. Is your god evil? My God is not evil.

Actually, if you believe the Bible, Pharaoh was made by God to be evil.

Pharaoh has nothing related to a righteous man. However, he may be identical in nature to the crowds who claimed Jesus was of Beelzebub.

 

[savagewind]

Actually, if you believe the Bible, Pharaoh was made by God to be evil.

Pharaoh has nothing related to a righteous man. However, he may be identical in nature to the crowds who claimed Jesus was of Beelzebub.

Oh! That is news to me. Now stubborn means evil. It seems to me that puts World in serious jeopardy.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Oh! That is news to me. Now stubborn means evil. It seems to me that puts World in serious jeopardy.

Considering how it all ended up, yeah that's pretty evil. If Pharaoh had not been made stubborn, a lot of hassle would have been saved and his own life would have been spared.

 

[savagewind]

considering how it all ended up, yeah that's pretty evil. If pharaoh had not been made stubborn, a lot of hassle would have been saved and his own life would have been spared.

ok. ---

 

[Ouroboros]

This latest development reminds me of a topic which isn't clear to me. Judas, was his act in obediance to God's will or didi he do something evil on his own?

 

[savagewind]

This latest development reminds me of a topic which isn't clear to me. Judas, was his act in obediance to God's will or didi he do something evil on his own?

'Jesus' said to Judas " "What you are about to do, do quickly." John 13:27 so I believe somehow, and for some reason we do not understand, Judas did act according to God's will. But then he proved weak when he killed himself. I believe killing himself had nothing to do with God's will.

 

[Ouroboros]

'Jesus' said to Judas " "What you are about to do, do quickly." John 13:27 so I believe somehow, and for some reason we do not understand, Judas did act according to God's will. But then he proved weak when he killed himself. I believe killing himself had nothing to do with God's will.

Thanks for the answer.

Wouldn't have been nice if Paul had written something about it and explained it? God is leaving such key elements of the "free will" debate go unanswered when he could have added a letter with the explanation? Perhaps free will isn't such an important topic to Christianity after all.

 

[Thief]

We digress....but as for Judas....

He acted entirely of his own freewill.

He was a patriot and his disappointment in the Carpenter was thorough.

The Last Supper made it clear...there would no crown upon the Carpenter's brow.
Not a crown of authority, in any case.

Judas, more than anyone wanted the Carpenter to be that Messiah.
A Jewish king upon a Jewish thrown.
The speech over the Table made it clear.....it would not happen.

Then, acting upon this notion the Carpenter was NOT the Messiah....
The Carpenter as false prophet.....
Judas turned Him over to the authorities.

Later, realizing his error....
Judas came to terms with his false accusation.
There was nothing left.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

We digress....but as for Judas....

He acted entirely of his own freewill.

He was a patriot and his disappointment in the Carpenter was thorough.

The Last Supper made it clear...there would no crown upon the Carpenter's brow.
Not a crown of authority, in any case.

Judas, more than anyone wanted the Carpenter to be that Messiah.
A Jewish king upon a Jewish thrown.
The speech over the Table made it clear.....it would not happen.

Then, acting upon this notion the Carpenter was NOT the Messiah....
The Carpenter as false prophet.....
Judas turned Him over to the authorities.

Later, realizing his error....
Judas came to terms with his false accusation.
There was nothing left.

You certainly seem to know quite a bit about the innermost thoughts and feelings of an individual we know of only through texts written years after he is said to have died.

Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard
Some do it with a bitter look
Some with a flattering word
The coward does it with a kiss
The brave man with a sword
-Oscar Wilde

 

[savagewind]

Both Thief and LegionOnomaMoi have made obvious some very good points of view. I am tending to go with LOM's perspective more as the account says 'Satan' led him. So imo it was not "entirely" of his own free will. I wonder if 'Satan' was able to take over a person completely? I think that Satan abyssed means it can no longer happen that a person do the sole will of that one. (What are we talking about?....and why would I care?). Some people believe Satan abyssed means evil will no longer have any influence on Earth. I disagree. People will still do evil until they won't but it won't be 'Satan's' fault for the thousand years. FYI I believe Earth has entered the thousand years already and if it is true, the truth does not bode well for most people. Does that make any sense? And do I care? The last question is rhetorical, in case you didn't know. I suppose I should learn to care, but I don't know how. I am sure most people don't care. I said most, not all.

 

[Ouroboros]

And relating to this issue of Judas is also if it really was necessary to go through the salvation plan using a betrayer. Why didn't Jesus choose by free will to give himself up? It would have saved the problem of having a patsy. To me, Jesus seems to be a coward not to go to the Romans and say "Here I am." No need for a Judas.

 

[savagewind]

And relating to this issue of Judas is also if it really was necessary to go through the salvation plan using a betrayer. Why didn't Jesus choose by free will to give himself up? It would have saved the problem of having a patsy. To me, Jesus seems to be a coward not to go to the Romans and say "Here I am." No need for a Judas.

Interesting. Even though that makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it put like that before and I have never even thought it.

I shall call this side tract on topic. Actually it is as we are talking about how simple matter seems to 'understand' everything much better than The Brain does.

I have imagined that faithful Israel is a nation of people acting out Truth (but not on purpose, intellectually). It is God's will (I believe) for everyone who wants to understand Life and Purpose to find the way to do so. Israel is a human drama that explains what is happening in the spiritual plane in physical ways. It is amazing!
I have been looking a long time for people who understand that it is true. There are few. Maybe only 144,000?

 

[Ouroboros]

Interesting. Even though that makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it put like that before and I have never even thought it.

I never thought about it either until now.

In a sense, Judas gave up more to fullfil God's plan than Jesus. Judas tortured for eternity for being the "bad" guy, while Jesus, who couldn't offer himself up but had to be captured, is rewarded for eternity. I'm starting to think that Jesus isn't such a hero after all, but a douche. Sorry. (But since I don't really believe in these stories it's not of great importance anyway.)

 

[savagewind]

I never thought about it either until now.

In a sense, Judas gave up more to fullfil God's plan than Jesus. Judas tortured for eternity for being the "bad" guy, while Jesus, who couldn't offer himself up but had to be captured, is rewarded for eternity. I'm starting to think that Jesus isn't such a hero after all, but a douche. Sorry. (But since I don't really believe in these stories it's not of great importance anyway.)

I do not call managing billions of unruly, mostly thankless, peeps a reward. :help:

 

[Thief]

Both Thief and LegionOnomaMoi have made obvious some very good points of view. I am tending to go with LOM's perspective more as the account says 'Satan' led him. So imo it was not "entirely" of his own free will. I wonder if 'Satan' was able to take over a person completely? I think that Satan abyssed means it can no longer happen that a person do the sole will of that one. (What are we talking about?....and why would I care?). Some people believe Satan abyssed means evil will no longer have any influence on Earth. I disagree. People will still do evil until they won't but it won't be 'Satan's' fault for the thousand years. FYI I believe Earth has entered the thousand years already and if it is true, the truth does not bode well for most people. Does that make any sense? And do I care? The last question is rhetorical, in case you didn't know. I suppose I should learn to care, but I don't know how. I am sure most people don't care. I said most, not all.

'Satan' has multiple applications.

Not often....it refers to the 'spirit' of a discipline....a deception.

If I allow a misperception to guide my actions.....it is 'Satan'.

Not so much the Devil Himself.....just a self deception.

 

[Thief]

And relating to this issue of Judas is also if it really was necessary to go through the salvation plan using a betrayer. Why didn't Jesus choose by free will to give himself up? It would have saved the problem of having a patsy. To me, Jesus seems to be a coward not to go to the Romans and say "Here I am." No need for a Judas.

He did give Himself up.
He knew His fate even as He rode into the Holy City.

That Judas would betray Him was likely known to the Carpenter.
The teacher would know His disciples.
He knew what Judas wanted.
And He had no doubt His entry into Jerusalem would be His last journey.

 

[savagewind]

'Satan' has multiple applications.

Not often....it refers to the 'spirit' of a discipline....a deception.

If I allow a misperception to guide my actions.....it is 'Satan'.

Not so much the Devil Himself.....just a self deception.

I agree! But according to my understanding of the accounts about 'satan' sometimes the power of it takes over a person's ability to choose correctly. It becomes more powerful than a person's will. When it does, it can not be said the person is still in control of his self. Given a real choice the person would not sin the sin.

 

[Thief]

I agree! But according to my understanding of the accounts about 'satan' sometimes the power of it takes over a person's ability to choose correctly. It becomes more powerful than a person's will. When it does, it can not be said the person is still in control of his self. Given a real choice the person would not sin the sin.

If your hand does anything at all....
It's because you thought you should.....or you felt like it.

With his disappointment in the lead Judas did what was needed.
The Carpenter was NOT a king of the Jews.
Jesus wanted no part of a rebellion (even with swords on the table)
Jesus was then a false prophet....worthy of death.
Judas did what he thought he should do.
If Jesus is not the Messiah....none of His teachings would put Judea on high.
Nothing the Carpenter ever said would glorify the Jewish faith.
Jesus was not promoting the Jewish faith.

Judas thought he had no choice.

 

[Ouroboros]

I agree! But according to my understanding of the accounts about 'satan' sometimes the power of it takes over a person's ability to choose correctly. It becomes more powerful than a person's will. When it does, it can not be said the person is still in control of his self. Given a real choice the person would not sin the sin.

Like the possessed guy in the Gospels. Was he naked, screamed and yelled in the desert, and generally unruly because he wanted to? Why did he change and got dressed after the demons left? You're right. Demon possession goes against free will. Will God judge people who are possessed against their will?