Basis for Trusting Muhammad?

[FearGod]

It seems to me that it works exactly like that. All the way up to the inherent contradiction of the subject that one is supposed to prove non-existence of.

What has this to do with expecting non-believers to have the duty to show that they have a reason or proof for disbelieving?

Simple question, if life is a natural product which originated from the non-living matter,
so what prevent us from creating organisms from the non-living matter, we have
intelligence and we can search, investigate and analyze better than the inanimate
nature, why do you think we can't yet do that simple thing?

 

[Tumah]

You said you don't know the story of the Bab and that we have to ask a Baha'i then how we could compare?

What needs to be compared? He was a good person. What else matters?

If they all received the prophecy then why the need for a prophet?

Because it was a temporary thing that they were able to experience a few times. They weren't able to maintain the spiritual requirement to achieve prophecy on a permanent basis, like regular prophets. There was also a difference in the quality of their prophecy and the quality necessary to convey the Torah that Moses had.

 

[Tumah]

A man comes from the top of a mountain and says that YHVH had talked with him from the fire in a bush.
If you were around in the time of Moses, on what basis would you believe he's telling the truth? Please
Regards

I wouldn't. And neither did the Jews then.

 

[Tumah]

What prophecy did Muhammad make ? Kindly quote the prophecy from Quran. Please
Regards

You'll have to ask a Muslim for that.

 

[Augustus]

I think it's a mischaracterization to say that Christians and Muslims took Jesus or Muhammad's word for it. If the scriptures can be believed, then Muhammad and Jesus both had the truth of their claims attested to with miracles.

FWIW, The Quran seems to disagree...


The Prophet and miracles

While the attitude of earlier prophets, especially their endurance when put to the test is constantly recalled to Muammad as a model to follow and a source of comfort, the miracles which served to confirm and authenticate their missions are denied him. In more than one passage of the Qurān we find him vainly asking God for a sign to convince his people: “If you could wish fora passage opening into the ground or a ladder up to the sky in order to give them a sign! If God had wanted to he would have gathered them all on guidance. Therefore do not be among those who are ignorant”(q 6:36; see ignorance). Elsewhere are listed miracles sought by the Prophet: the simple descent (from heaven) of a book or an angel (q 6:7-8), the outpouring of a spring or a stream in a garden, a downpour from the skies, a house full of treasure,and his being transported to heaven(q 17:90-3). This last request appears in the sūra that begins with a reference to the journey by night (see ascension). This shows that “the greatest signs” that the Prophet must contemplate during the course of his ascension are intended for him rather than for the unbelievers. The Qurān thus explains the relative pointlessness of miracles: since God has not given faith to the unbeliever, he is incapable of belief (see freedom and predestination). Furthermore the refusal of divine signs and the coming of angels risks provoking divine punishment (e.g. q 25:20-2). Like others before him, Muammad is accused of untruthfulness and magic (q 54:2; 74:24, etc.) and his people challenge him to bring about the punishment that he proclaims. Confronted by such accusations, he is reminded of the pointlessness of miracles. Instead of this he must assert his own human nature (see impeccability) and repudiate all miraculous power (e.g. q 6:50), but proclaim instead the revealed character of his inspiration and actions. This abolition of miracles is only an apparent contradiction of the prophetic models set forth as examples for him. (Miracles - Encyclopedia of the Quran vol 3)

 

[FearGod]

What needs to be compared? He was a good person. What else matters?

I asked for the stories which confirms that he was a good person sincere and honest before being a prophet.
Why you care to ask about prophet Muhammed and not Baha'ullah or Jesus?

Because it was a temporary thing that they were able to experience a few times. They weren't able to maintain the spiritual requirement to achieve prophecy on a permanent basis, like regular prophets. There was also a difference in the quality of their prophecy and the quality necessary to convey the Torah that Moses had.

How do you know? what's your reference?

 

[paarsurrey]

A man comes from the top of a mountain and says that YHVH had talked with him from the fire in a bush.
If you were around in the time of Moses, on what basis would you believe he's telling the truth? Please
Regards

I wouldn't. And neither did the Jews then.

And when did the Jews start believing that YHVH had conversed with Moses and on what basis and as such he was a prophet of YHVH? Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Try this instead: For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

That entire bunch of junk is based on assumptions made by men. I would think a Hindu would know better than to trust a bunch of men and their assumptions. You do realize of course that they change their philosophy in a major way every decade or so. What will they think 10 years from now? I can assure you it will be different from what they think today. If you will rest your faith on the ever changing words of men, what would your gods think about that?

That is very funny.

Darwin expounded his theory in 1859, Lemaître proposed his theory in 1927. Yes, the theories have been modified with the accretion of new knowledge but still stand firm.

 

[George-ananda]

Its been noted that he was quite well traveled and had plenty of interaction with the Jews and Christians of the day. Its not hard to wonder if maybe although he may have not been able to read, took advantage of his interactions with people, to learn their theologies and philosophies.

I and experts certainly consider that but in the end it sounds to me (after listening to the experts) like an attempt to 'explain away' the phenomena. The classical Arabic language he recited in also strike those who are more in the know than I about the Arabic language as not explainable in a mundane way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. maybe there's other kind of living things that we can't yet recognize but that doesn't mean if we don't know and see then it means doesn't exist, it isn't that simple.

Malāʾikah and Jinnat. Yeah, I have met a few.

Furthermore, that doesn't prove anything about God or anything else for that matter.

It proves that a God (or Gods/Goddesses) is not necessary for creation of the universe or creation of humans.

 

[FearGod]

Malāʾikah and Jinnat. Yeah, I have met a few.It proves that a God (or Gods/Goddesses) is not necessary for creation of the universe or creation of humans.

And how many viruses did you see around you?

 

[Aupmanyav]

None of that is proof against any deity. Maybe if you're arguing against a young earth creationist or whatever. You can definitely accept scientific findings and believe in God. I do.

People have strange beliefs. Some atheists say that they do not believe in existence of God but believe in existence of soul. I think such views are unscientific.

And how many viruses did you see around you?

I have seen umpteen photographs including electron microscope photographs. One particular virus is sort of a friend, visits us every winter.

 

[OceanSoul]

If I had met Muhammad and he told me he had a vision and was a prophet, I would likely be skeptical. However, I would listen to what he has to say, ask him questions, see why I should believe him, like give him a chance to express himself.

Muhammad is a controversial religious figure with a lot of people who dislike him now and since the time he lived so it's hard to be sure if what I read about his life is objective, trustworthy, biased, or not. If he did go on military escapades I think I would be unlikely to follow him then.

What someone says or claims to be isn't something that should just be taken at face value, so I prefer to go by what their actions say instead. Still, it's a matter of faith and if I wanted to join Islam then I would be Muslim which doesn't mean the faith doesn't work for those who follow it.

 

[Tumah]

I asked for the stories which confirms that he was a good person sincere and honest before being a prophet.

No you didn't. You asked me what his last sermon was.
Read up about him on Wikipedia and I'm sure our Baha'i friends can give us even better examples.
Veryfew people follow a prophet that they know to be lying and manipulative.

Why you care to ask about prophet Muhammed and not Baha'ullah or Jesus?

One thing at a time! Please!
Besides I just made a thread for Christians a few days ago. I need to be fair, right?

How do you know? what's your reference?

My father told me. Its a long line of traditions going back to my great- great- grandfather who had the prophecy and told his son, who told his son...who rold my father who told me. I also have this tradition from my rabbi who recieved it grom his rabbi... who recieved it from the 70 elders who had the prophecy as well. Also all my friends have this tradition from their great- grandparents who had the prophecy as well.

 

[FearGod]

.I have seen umpteen photographs including electron microscope photographs. One particular virus is sort of a friend, visits us every winter.

And right now how many you could see around you?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Create life by using the non-living matter and the story will end, no need to fetch for God

but for what he did, we have the earth and we have the intelligence, then prove it and create a simple creature from the non-living matter..

We are creating organs with stem cells, we are creating clones. We know about replicating molecules. Perhaps creating life also will be possible one day. 3-D machines are creating body parts.
That is what we would like to be proved that he (God) did that. At the moment you can only offer your scriptures as proof.

And right now how many you could see around you?

There are billions around me. Billions live in my body in harmony (symbiotically) with it. They nourish and protect me (by producing anti-bodies), I nourish and protect them.

I asked for the stories which confirms that he was a good person sincere and honest before being a prophet.

Stories are just stories. They do not prove anything.

And right now how many you could see around you?

How many stars you think there are in the sky. Can I count that? Our senses have their limitations. Beyond that we need to take help of machines, telescopes, satellites, microscopes, and now electron microscopes, etc. There are earthquakes which we may not feel, but the machines show them clearly.

 

[FearGod]

No you didn't. You asked me what his last sermon was.
Read up about him on Wikipedia and I'm sure our Baha'i friends can give us even better examples.
Veryfew people follow a prophet that they know to be lying and manipulative.

I thought since you replied then you know the stories about Baha'ullah before his prophecy,
so you think he supposed to be similar to Muhammed sincere and honest before delivering the message.

My father told me. Its a long line of traditions going back to my great- great- grandfather who had the prophecy and told his son, who told his son...who rold my father who told me. I also have this tradition from my rabbi who recieved it grom his rabbi... who recieved it from the 70 elders who had the prophecy as well. Also all my friends have this tradition from their great- grandparents who had the prophecy as well.

If you believe that all Jews received a message then why it's hard to believe that Muhammed received the message,
Did Pharoan receive the same message or only those who born as Jews?

 

[FearGod]

We are creating organs with stem cells, we are creating clones. We know about replicating molecules. Perhaps creating life also will be possible one day. 3-D machines are creating body parts.
That is what we would like to be proved that he (God) did that. At the moment you can only offer your scriptures as proof.

God challenged that we won't know what life is, God confirmed that the soul and the spirit is beyond our knowledge,
so if you think one day we'll know then why not till now?

There are billions around me. Billions live in my body in harmony with it. They nourish me, I nourish them.Stories are just stories. They do not prove anything.How many stars you think there are in the sky. Can I count that? Our senses have their limitations. Beyond that we need to take help of machines, telescopes, satellites, microscopes, and now electron microscopes, etc. There are earthquakes which we may not feel, but the machines show them clearly.

Yes we can't know everything, not having evidence doesn't mean a thing doesn't exist, we know that viruses
exist because we were able to invent the microscopes, we can't know what beyond our universe, we can't
know what it was before the singularity, so not knowing isn't an evidence for anything.

 

[LuisDantas]

Simple question, if life is a natural product which originated from the non-living matter,
so what prevent us from creating organisms from the non-living matter,

The same thing that for so long used to prevent us from creating flying machines: a lack of specific knowledge and proper tools and material.

I can't tell for sure, but there seems to be some word that it has actually been done in recent years. See for instance http://www.livescience.com/54165-artificial-bacterium-has-smallest-genome.html

To state the obvious, not everything that may happen spontaneously on a whole planet during millions of years has necessarily to be reproductible by humans living on that planet.

we have
intelligence and we can search, investigate and analyze better than the inanimate
nature, why do you think we can't yet do that simple thing?

Why do you think it is a simple thing?

 

[Tumah]

I thought since you replied then you know the stories about Baha'ullah before his prophecy,
so you think he supposed to be similar to Muhammed sincere and honest before delivering the message.

Here you go.

If you believe that all Jews received a message then why it's hard to believe that Muhammed received the message,

Its not hard to believe that people can get prophecy. Just that not everyone who claims prophecy is actually a prophet. We have to check and test to make sure its true.
In Judaism, every prophet in order to be officially acknowledged as a prophet has to be tested a number of times on his ability to see the future. If he gets one detail wrong, he's out. Only afterwards can we trust any message he says.

Did Pharoan receive the same message or only those who born as Jews?

Well he was in the middle of drowning, so I assume no. But he also wasn't available to ask, so maybe yes.