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Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

Wotan

Active Member
Nobody has authority over the subject, everybody can argue what they want, or believe what they want. In the end, the religion is right there for anybody who wants to study it and find with honesty what it does really say, which in the majority of situations, is pretty clear.

What i was saying, is that scholars are no different than anybody else. Some of them are stupid, bad, ignorant whatever you want, they are people occupying a job, some of them are good and some of them are not.

That is all very modern and "moderate" and tolerant etc, etc, etc. But just like your Christian cousins you insist this is a supernatural communication, perfect in every way, w/o error or possibility of error, the direct Word of God, to alter one comma is unacceptable.

But any 2 people reading it can reach different conclusions about what it means.

What is wrong with this picture? The initial assumption. There is NOTHING supernatural about it or the Christian version.

Its a MYTH made up by humans to provide a weapon to control their fellows. It is nothing but a POLITICAL weapon. And a hateful intolerant one at that.
:(
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
:clap
this is an excellent post autodidact!!!
emphasis by moi...

There is no such single thing as "Islam." Islam is whatever Muslims believe it is. As I think I have shown, the mainstream view among Muslims is that Muhammed married a little girl and had sex with her, and that is perfectly justified.

As I have said many times, I am not going to be drawn into an argument as to what is or is not Islamic. I'm not a Muslim and it would be presumptuous to have an opinion on the subject. However, what is clear is that most Muslims do believe it is Islamic, and that is the problem. For that reason, what matters to the poor child brides is not True Islam, but what the Muslims in their community believe Islam is. And that is horrible.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I don't wish to make that argument; I wish nobody would make it. However there are Muslims who do:

Question

The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission? "He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."​


:areyoucra
how convenient​
 

Starsoul

Truth
honestly, i think it's time the Shar'iah be revisited (and lets throw some young people and some WOMEN in there for good measure). i know i'll be bashed (again) for this...but this is my opinion and i'm sticking to it.

maybe when the life expectancy was 30 it made more sense to marry young, but not today. the thought of any of my six daughters marrying right now...i think i'd puke.
Its not a maybe, its the truth. Women life's expectancy was very narrow around those times owing to child bearing. Most women would die giving birth to one of their children, they would usually survive if the first two children made it to toddlers and that was considered very lucky. Most women have been reported to die within their late twenties and mid thirties according to the available data of life expectancy in those times.

And well just because people used to eat from their hands when spoons wern't invented, doesn't mean we should all throw our spoons out. With times, some things inevitably change. If people wore rugs made out of thick strings in the ancient times, thats the best they had to adapt to their environments.

Lastly, shariah is described in the Holy Quran in very clear terms and none of it can be changed, but i'm sure thats not what you meant. Anything Not related to the Quran and sunnah cannot and should not be tied to shariah, no matter who practised it.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
umm, that second article is about HINDUS. certainly Islam didn't convince Hindus to have child brides. this brings home the argument that child brides is a CULTURAL phenomenon.

That wasn't the intention,Child Marriage is wrong no matter how or why its practiced,the difference for Islam is its sanctioned by enough Scholars to make a difference and its right there in the ahadith.


i agree; marrying off 10 year olds is disgusting; backing it with religion is revolting, and it shouldn't happen.

Good and i am aware its not practiced by all Muslims



as we do, but the problem is that there are so many Muslims who like to disregard the Qur'an and do icky cultural stuff instead. :(

They don't believe its cultural though and theres nobody to tell them otherwise
 

Starsoul

Truth
Here's a pro-Muslim website, answering Christianity, with an argument justifying the marriage:

from here.

Here's another one, arguing that although he began living with his wife at age 9, this does not make him a pedophile.
The write assumes this to be the case, and then goes on to justify it.

1a. "Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.

This seems like an impartial Muslim analysis of the controversy. The writer concludes:




The writer also correctly points to the contemporary importance of the issue:



Here's another Muslim site defending Muhammed's actions in marrying a young girl.


In fact, it appears that no one within Islam questioned this version of history until the 20th century:



Here is another pro-Muslim document, explaining why it was fine to have sex with a 9-year old Aisha:

1. Lady Aisha said: “If the young girl reaches 9 years, then she is a woman”.http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/#_edn1 She is obviously describing herself and her acquaintances.
2. Not merely did she reach menstruation,the great Malki scholar Dawudi commented about her marriage “Aisha then had physically matured well indeed”.[ii]
As a result, not only had Lady Aisha reached puberty when her marriage was consummated, she was also a physically and psychologically mature adult.
from here.

Well, I could go on and on, but I hope I have shown that the mainstream, majority view, which most Islamic writers see as justified, is that the prophet Muhammed, role model for all Muslim men, married a 6-year old girl and consummated that marriage at age 9, which is of course reprehensible and should be criminal.

Please note that every source cited is Muslim.




Complete rubbish. How can you even link un-authentic websites as your source of misinformation? Sadly most muslims (of poorer countries, which you don't tire giving examples of) don't even get to read the ahadith books in their entire lifetimes( call it ignorance or lack of opportunity) you wont find them putting their POV across firmly because they lack complete knowledge over it.

I have access to Authentic scholars and this is what they say.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2200502-post39.html

All prominent hadith scholars stand by the age of Hazrat Ayesha within 15-19 yrs when she got married. Thats another thing you'd deliberately try to mis-contrue and ignore all other ahadith that go in the OBVIOUS CONTEXT of the said hadith to prove your myth based bias against the religion. Nothing new. :sleep:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Complete rubbish. How can you even link un-authentic websites as your source of misinformation? Sadly most muslims (of poorer countries, which you don't tire giving examples of) don't even get to read the ahadith books in their entire lifetimes( call it ignorance or lack of opportunity) you wont find them putting their POV across firmly because they lack complete knowledge over it.

I have access to Authentic scholars and this is what they say.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2200502-post39.html

All prominent hadith scholars stand by the age of Hazrat Ayesha within 15-19 yrs when she got married. Thats another thing you'd deliberately try to mis-contrue and ignore all other ahadith that go in the OBVIOUS CONTEXT of the said hadith to prove your myth based bias against the religion. Nothing new. :sleep:

curious,
what do you think about post 180?
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no such single thing as "Islam." Islam is whatever Muslims believe it is. As I think I have shown, the mainstream view among Muslims is that Muhammed married a little girl and had sex with her, and that is perfectly justified.

As I have said many times, I am not going to be drawn into an argument as to what is or is not Islamic. I'm not a Muslim and it would be presumptuous to have an opinion on the subject. However, what is clear is that most Muslims do believe it is Islamic, and that is the problem. For that reason, what matters to the poor child brides is not True Islam, but what the Muslims in their community believe Islam is. And that is horrible.

agree with the bolded, and i too feel sad for them. i'm not sure how or when, but even the most remote villages need to be educated instead of living by the standard set forth by their prior, even less-educated predecessors.

Its not a maybe, its the truth. Women life's expectancy was very narrow around those times owing to child bearing. Most women would die giving birth to one of their children, they would usually survive if the first two children made it to toddlers and that was considered very lucky. Most women have been reported to die within their late twenties and mid thirties according to the available data of life expectancy in those times.

And well just because people used to eat from their hands when spoons wern't invented, doesn't mean we should all throw our spoons out. With times, some things inevitably change. If people wore rugs made out of thick strings in the ancient times, thats the best they had to adapt to their environments.

Lastly, shariah is described in the Holy Quran in very clear terms and none of it can be changed, but i'm sure thats not what you meant. Anything Not related to the Quran and sunnah cannot and should not be tied to shariah, no matter who practised it.

my "maybe" was anecdotal; the way i wrote it was as fact. :)
i never said throw out Shar'iah, but there are adjustments that can be made within the parameters of the Qur'an.

They don't believe its cultural though and theres nobody to tell them otherwise

and that's a shame. :(

Owing to their level of knowledge, its a far fetched blame that they do it out of reference to religion, it'd be a revelation that they'd even know such a thing existed in a religion.( which it does not).

they need to be TAUGHT otherwise.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Owing to their level of knowledge, its a far fetched blame that they do it out of reference to religion, it'd be a revelation that they'd even know such a thing existed in a religion.( which it does not).


Knowledge,i don't think you need to be a Rocket Scientist to know Child Marriage is wrong and why is it far fetched,there is a precedence .
 

Starsoul

Truth
Again, COMPLETELY un authentic source of information.

Its sad but true that when ever i search the web for islam, i find deliberate distorted scramble about religion 99.9% of the times. Its shocking how people can propagate so much jumble against a religion and keep those links at the top most and most reachable ones among all the search engines.

If i was to rely on any information, i'd rather meet someone in person rather than rely blindly on the information given on the web about a religion. It is biased and judgemental to form views about a religion when all you are equipped with is the distorted propaganda readily available with a single click on thee net or the tv.

The author of the linked article= not known
his source of knowledge = unknown
His base of knowledge = unknown
His ability to pose a sound scholar= does not fool me.


In Islam , generally It is not allowed to issue fatwas so regularly as the website claims to issue countless fatwas 'everyday'. Giving fatwas( opinion agreed upon by various scholars) is a very serious and crucial matter, it takes a thorough study base and a lot of consensus to reach, to ACTUALLY announce a fatwa. By just looking at that 'everyday fatwa aspect', any aware muslim would doubt the credibility of the source before proceeding any further. Don't be fooled by impostor websites claiming to be authentic scholars, their viciousness is contaminating.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
you'd be surprised what uneducated, isolated people think is normal...

Like i said earlier,theres too many Chiefs and not enough Indians,you could take 10 Imams and get a different interptretation from each of them concerning the ahadih in question but who's going to tell them they are wrong?.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Again, COMPLETELY un authentic source of information.

Its sad but true that when ever i search the web for islam, i find deliberate distorted scramble about religion 99.9% of the times. Its shocking how people can propagate so much jumble against a religion and keep those links at the top most and most reachable ones among all the search engines.

If i was to rely on any information, i'd rather meet someone in person rather than rely blindly on the information given on the web about a religion. It is biased and judgemental to form views about a religion when all you are equipped with is the distorted propaganda readily available with a single click on thee net or the tv.

The author of the linked article= not known
his source of knowledge = unknown
His base of knowledge = unknown
His ability to pose a sound scholar= does not fool me.


In Islam , generally It is not allowed to issue fatwas so regularly as the website claims to issue countless fatwas 'everyday'. Giving fatwas( opinion agreed upon by various scholars) is a very serious and crucial matter, it takes a thorough study base and a lot of consensus to reach, to ACTUALLY announce a fatwa. By just looking at that 'everyday fatwa aspect', any aware muslim would doubt the credibility of the source before proceeding any further. Don't be fooled by impostor websites claiming to be authentic scholars, their viciousness is contaminating.

let me remind you what smoke said...
I don't wish to make that argument; I wish nobody would make it. However there are Muslims who do:

and the answer quoted the quran so i don't understand why you object to it.
 

Wotan

Active Member
Again, COMPLETELY un authentic source of information.

Its sad but true that when ever i search the web for islam, i find deliberate distorted scramble about religion 99.9% of the times. Its shocking how people can propagate so much jumble against a religion and keep those links at the top most and most reachable ones among all the search engines.

If i was to rely on any information, i'd rather meet someone in person rather than rely blindly on the information given on the web about a religion. It is biased and judgemental to form views about a religion when all you are equipped with is the distorted propaganda readily available with a single click on thee net or the tv.

The author of the linked article= not known
his source of knowledge = unknown
His base of knowledge = unknown
His ability to pose a sound scholar= does not fool me.


In Islam , generally It is not allowed to issue fatwas so regularly as the website claims to issue countless fatwas 'everyday'. Giving fatwas( opinion agreed upon by various scholars) is a very serious and crucial matter, it takes a thorough study base and a lot of consensus to reach, to ACTUALLY announce a fatwa. By just looking at that 'everyday fatwa aspect', any aware muslim would doubt the credibility of the source before proceeding any further. Don't be fooled by impostor websites claiming to be authentic scholars, their viciousness is contaminating.

These poor mis-understand Muslim believers, the downtrodden waifs of humanity.

Nothing for them to live on but oil and ancient superstition.

Can we please pass a hat for these beleaguered but blessed spirits trapped in the culture of so long ago?:D
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Complete rubbish. How can you even link un-authentic websites as your source of misinformation? Sadly most muslims (of poorer countries, which you don't tire giving examples of) don't even get to read the ahadith books in their entire lifetimes( call it ignorance or lack of opportunity) you wont find them putting their POV across firmly because they lack complete knowledge over it.
Who decides what scholars are legitimate and which are not? Does it have anything to do with whether they agree with you?

As I say, it's not about what's "really" Islamic. It's about what Muslims think is Islamic. And according to these sources, most of them do believe this. Do you disagree?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
In Islam , generally It is not allowed to issue fatwas so regularly as the website claims to issue countless fatwas 'everyday'.

On what do you base this assertion?

You do understand that all the Imams of islam don`t get together every month and vote on their list of possible fatwas don`t you?

There is no central control of the kind you imply any Imam can pretty much do whatever the hell he pleases and if it contradicts some other Imam so be it.

Support your statement.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Again, COMPLETELY un authentic source of information.

Its sad but true that when ever i search the web for islam, i find deliberate distorted scramble about religion 99.9% of the times.
The thing is, no matter how you go on about authentic scholars and true Islam, this stuff is out there. For millions of Muslims, this stuff is Islam.

That's a big part of my problem with Islam and Christianity. Don't tell me about the "true" form of your religion, how it could be, how it should be. Tell that to your co-religionists, because what I'm looking at is how those religions are on the ground.

And look, I've known a lot of Muslims, and not one of them was like these guys. But those guys are out there, and they're convincing millions of people that this garbage is Islam. And they have a point. They're the ones who are following tradition. It's you guys, the sane ones, the reasonable ones, who have changed things.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
In Islam , generally It is not allowed to issue fatwas so regularly as the website claims to issue countless fatwas 'everyday'. Giving fatwas( opinion agreed upon by various scholars) is a very serious and crucial matter, it takes a thorough study base and a lot of consensus to reach, to ACTUALLY announce a fatwa. By just looking at that 'everyday fatwa aspect', any aware muslim would doubt the credibility of the source before proceeding any further. Don't be fooled by impostor websites claiming to be authentic scholars, their viciousness is contaminating.
On the issue of Fatwa's, Starsoul, it should also be noted that in the Sunni tradition, fatwas are, by nature, non-binding. Fatwa's in Shia Islam are considered binding if the individual already follows the rulings and opinions of that given scholar. If they don't it is also non-binding.

I could have this slightly wrong, but that is my understanding. In essence, the average Muslim is allowed to ignore fatwa's as they see fit. The only problem that may arise is when a fatwa is backed by a given government. It would be unwise for Sunni or Shia followers to ignore those fatwa's.

If I have this wrong, feel free to correct my thinking.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is all very modern and "moderate" and tolerant etc, etc, etc. But just like your Christian cousins you insist this is a supernatural communication, perfect in every way, w/o error or possibility of error, the direct Word of God, to alter one comma is unacceptable.

But any 2 people reading it can reach different conclusions about what it means.

What is wrong with this picture? The initial assumption. There is NOTHING supernatural about it or the Christian version.

Its a MYTH made up by humans to provide a weapon to control their fellows. It is nothing but a POLITICAL weapon. And a hateful intolerant one at that.
:(

What are you talking about? Did you even read what i said?

I don't care what you think of religion, so keep it to yourself or share it in a proper thread. I certainly don't care enough to hear it this many times, especially when its irrelevant.

And what is "modern" or "moderate" about what i said? I said scholars are people occupying jobs. Whats so modern about that?
 
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