Beauty Standards

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Three posts quoted for truth and for capturing the angles of these circumstances.
Also I just want to note that I check myself in the mirror even if I go to work, just to make sure I'm presentable, and on other occasions to make sure I 'look good' before going socializing. So guys care about appearance as well, we just don't have as hard time as women seemingly because of historical taboos that expect more of them. After all, 'women need to look decent'. Although 'decent' developed more meanings today.
I think dawny presents a great point though. Taking ownership over creative cosmetics liberates it from taboo and traditional archaic social reasons. When women, or fashion conscious men use such a platform to promote independent lifestyle and personal aesthetics it's no longer standards which are enforced on others to conform them to industrial fashion or to taboos of decency.

Yes definitely. I went to a 1920's themed party recently and decided to take inspiration from makeup artist Pat Mcgrath who is a genius in my opinion, and takes a lot of her inspiration from 1920's film makeup but she modernises it. And it was a lot of fun being someone else. I know exactly where Dawny is coming from I went to a fashion Uni. But I'm also aware of and have experienced and witnessed the negative side of it too, which is what this thread is about.

 

[Sunstone]

Yes definitely. I went to a 1920's themed party recently...

Ahem! I know I'm old, but I resent your referring to the time we spent in chat recently as "a 1920's themed party".

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Ahem! I know I'm old, but I resent your referring to the time we spent in chat recently as "a 1920's themed party".

This is why no one should ever ask me to guess their age ever...I've been known to make grown men cry.

 

[Alceste]

Three posts quoted for truth and for capturing the angles of these circumstances.
Also I just want to note that I check myself in the mirror even if I go to work, just to make sure I'm presentable, and on other occasions to make sure I 'look good' before going socializing. So guys care about appearance as well, we just don't have as hard time as women seemingly because of historical taboos that expect more of them. After all, 'women need to look decent'. Although 'decent' developed more meanings today.
I think dawny presents a great point though. Taking ownership over creative cosmetics liberates it from taboo and traditional archaic social reasons. When women, or fashion conscious men use such a platform to promote independent lifestyle and personal aesthetics it's no longer standards which are enforced on others to conform them to industrial fashion or to taboos of decency.

Yeah, there's always the quick glance in the mirror to check for spinach in the teeth or ridiculous hair or whatever. Although I often forget to do that, it is part of my routine. For a lot of guys, it's the WHOLE routine. Contrast that with my friend who felt she had to have a shower, wash her long hair, blow dry it and put on make up every single day of her life. I traveled with her for a week and it was unbearable. Literally over an hour every morning spent just WAITING for my friend to do all this pointless stuff. If I told her I wanted to go for a walk and pick her up later she'd get really agitated and act put upon, like I was impatient and rushing her. To me, an hour is a really long time, especially when I'm traveling and want to explore. To her, it was nothing. She wastes that amount of time every day of her life, and doesn't even notice it's gone.

 

[Caladan]

I traveled with her for a week and it was unbearable. Literally over an hour every morning spent just WAITING for my friend to do all this pointless stuff. If I told her I wanted to go for a walk and pick her up later she'd get really agitated and act put upon, like I was impatient and rushing her. To me, an hour is a really long time, especially when I'm traveling and want to explore. To her, it was nothing. She wastes that amount of time every day of her life, and doesn't even notice it's gone.

Damn. For the fist time in many years I feel that someone knows where I'm coming from.

 

[Penumbra]

I too, would be annoyed to travel with somebody that spent an hour getting ready.

 

[Sunstone]

...I've been known to make grown men cry.

I am much more impressed with your ability to make grown men drool.

 

[Alceste]

Damn. For the fist time in many years I feel that someone knows where I'm coming from.

Lol - haven't completely escaped yet either. I married a man who is a bit of a tart. Takes ages to get him out of the house.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I am much more impressed with your ability to make grown men drool.

Like novocaine.

 

[Alceste]

I too, would be annoyed to travel with somebody that spent an hour getting ready.

On top of that, she bought so much luggage she could barely carry it all. She was just a little head and two chopstick legs sticking out from a mass of bags. She couldn't walk more than a block without a rest, and half the time I had to carry her instruments. Madness. I had one school sized back pack and a fiddle.

 

[Penumbra]

On top of that, she bought so much luggage she could barely carry it all. She was just a little head and two chopstick legs sticking out from a mass of bags. She couldn't walk more than a block without a rest, and half the time I had to carry her instruments. Madness. I had one school sized back pack and a fiddle.

I have a friend just like that. We're opposites in every way. Fortunately we don't go on long travels together.

She wears make-up every day without fail and takes a very long time to get ready for anything. She also has a very long-term boyfriend that she still expects to pay for everything except tips, and she tells me she likes to manipulate the men at our office to do work for her. Basically, she's a clone of Alicia Silverstone from Clueless.

I just show up for work in the morning with no make up and with my hair still wet, 'cause I woke up a half hour prior. And I do my absolute best to travel anywhere with only a backpack, or on a business flight with just one carry-on bag.

The last thing I want to worry about is hauling a bunch of stuff around with me or wondering if my face paint is still in order. I am truly curious how people have so much energy to get so into these things.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I am much more impressed with your ability to make grown men drool.

You have strange taste Sunstone, but I forgive you.

 

[Sunstone]

I think the beauty standards of the fashion and entertainment industries would have much less impact on women if the women had not grown up with them. It seems likely that it's akin to religion in that regard. The religion we grow up in usually has a huge influence on how we look at the world even as adults. But we're typically far more skeptical of and much less influenced by religions we don't grow up in. If women were first exposed to the beauty standards of the fashion and entertainment industries as adults, they might be as likely to adopt them as a person raised a Hindu is likely to adopt Judaism.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think the beauty standards of the fashion and entertainment industries would have much less impact on women if the women had not grown up with them. It seems likely that it's akin to religion in that regard. The religion we grow up in usually has a huge influence on how we look at the world even as adults. But we're typically far more skeptical of and much less influenced by religions we don't grow up in. If women were first exposed to the beauty standards of the fashion and entertainment industries as adults, they might be as likely to adopt them as a person raised a Hindu is likely to adopt Judaism.

Phil my niece is 9 years old and thinks she is fat, when she was about 3/4 years old she said she wishes she was a different skin colour, my skin colour, light skinned or like her teacher, "peach" (white).
So it annoys me when people think I'm somehow trying to take away women's "strength" and freedom to express themselves creatively with what they look like. Missing the point much? I think so.

 

[dawny0826]

I too see makeup as an art form: Haute Haute Couture

But I don't think that is what we are talking about. We are talking about how women are made to feel unattractive or have issues with our natural selves in ways that men aren't. Makeup is mostly not marketed as a creative tool, but as a tool to hide "imperfections" on women specifically.

What do you say of men and their grooming habits? Do men not shampoo and condition their hair? Get their hair cut? Sometimes color their hair? Carry combs in their pockets to smoothe down fly aways? Trim nose and ear hairs? Wax? Sometimes seek a change in cut and style? Perhaps use a styling product? Do men not partake in a regime of basic skin care? Lip balm? Acne products? Do men not groom brows? Trim moustaches? Beards? Wear concealer? Aftershave? Cologne? Flat iron hair? Wear deodorant?

Clearly, men too, have been shaped and molded over the years to do specific things to make themselves look a certain way to fit specifc stereotypes and to feel better about themselves and they too grace the pages of our beauty magazines, often posed alongside super models.

Men go just as ape when MAC releases their newest collection. I assure you.

As we continue to gender bend and to destroy stereotypical molds, more men are going to be succumbing to the same pressures as we. They've been succumbing to their own brand of pressures all along.

Makeup is absolutely marketed as an artistic tool. It's also marketed in a plethora of other ways. Cosmetics presents as a plethora of products and services which address a variety of needs and wants for men and women alike.

Only certain products are designed to hide imperfections. Many are designed to accentuate beauty. Many more are designed to combat aging. Others are designed for mere glam, glitz and fun. No person has a gun to their head to purchase any single product.

I contest that one would have to have very low self esteem considering the diverse canvas of the cosmetic industry to feel pressured to purchase a product if they did not already have a problem with their self-image.

I do not buy that any of us, male or female are made to feel unattractive by cosmetic marketing, unless there's something specific that we're insecure about already.

These advertisements would cease if we didn't continue to purchase and enjoy the products and services. If we really wanted to embrace natural, we would be sporting our chapped lips and acne without care.

 

[Alceste]

What do you say of men and their grooming habits? Do men not shampoo and condition their hair? Get their hair cut? Sometimes color their hair? Carry combs in their pockets to smoothe down fly aways? Trim nose and ear hairs? Wax? Sometimes seek a change in cut and style? Perhaps use a styling product? Do men not partake in a regime of basic skin care? Lip balm? Acne products? Do men not groom brows? Trim moustaches? Beards? Wear concealer? Aftershave? Cologne? Flat iron hair? Wear deodorant?

Clearly, men too, have been shaped and molded over the years to do specific things to make themselves look a certain way to fit specifc stereotypes and to feel better about themselves and they too grace the pages of our beauty magazines, often posed alongside super models.

Men go just as ape when MAC releases their newest collection. I assure you.

As we continue to gender bend and to destroy stereotypical molds, more men are going to be succumbing to the same pressures as we. They've been succumbing to their own brand of pressures all along.

Makeup is absolutely marketed as an artistic tool. It's also marketed in a plethora of other ways. Cosmetics presents as a plethora of products and services which address a variety of needs and wants for men and women alike.

Only certain products are designed to hide imperfections. Many are designed to accentuate beauty. Many more are designed to combat aging. Others are designed for mere glam, glitz and fun. No person has a gun to their head to purchase any single product.

I contest that one would have to have very low self esteem considering the diverse canvas of the cosmetic industry to feel pressured to purchase a product if they did not already have a problem with their self-image.

I do not buy that any of us, male or female are made to feel unattractive by cosmetic marketing, unless there's something specific that we're insecure about already.

These advertisements would cease if we didn't continue to purchase and enjoy the products and services. If we really wanted to embrace natural, we would be sporting our chapped lips and acne without care.

The men I know don't do any of that stuff. They're all very "wash and go". They have to deal with shaving (or not, as the case may be - it's all just a bit of fun anyway, right?) When I say my husband is a tart, I mean he takes more time getting dressed than I do (picking out and ironing one of a huge collection of nearly identical black shirts) and likes to groom the edges of his full, ultra-manly beard before going out on the town. Occasionally he trims his prodigious crop of nose hair and once (only once) he let me wax his back for swimsuit season. That's a tart in Canada.

My personal opinion is that, for the most part, men don't experience the anxiety I'm talking about. They can shave or not shave and walk out the door feeling more or less equally self-confident, and whatever they decide to do with their face, it probably says something positive to someone, somewhere. Ever heard of Movember? When tens of thousands of men all over the world sport ridiculous mustaches all month for a lark? Most women wouldn't feel comfortable going a whole month without shaving their pits or legs just for ***** and giggles.

Very rarely will men not walk out the door at all if something goes wrong in their "beauty" regime. Whereas with women, sometimes that anxiety can be so intense that I had a friend as a teen who would actually SKIP SCHOOL if she ran out of hair spray. She'd pretend she was sick. My own mom literally refused to go out in public before putting on lipstick and mascara. Granted, that's not a very time consuming regime, but she was nevertheless plagued with anxiety about letting anyone see her without the prerequisite beauty boosters. She hated going gray, too, and would be gutted and feel constantly embarrassed whenever something went wrong with a hair cut. The poor woman is and always has been a total knock-out, too.

I'm not saying men don't care about their appearance - of course they do, and everybody does to some extent. But it seems to me that for the most part they don't suffer from the incessant self-criticism many (of not most) women indulge in, and they don't suffer from the psychological discomforts of that bad habit to the same extent. For men, the basic "just rolled out of bed" look is awesome, and all that trimming, washing and grooming they do is only to make them even MORE awesome.

 

[Alceste]

Phil my niece is 9 years old and thinks she is fat, when she was about 3/4 years old she said she wishes she was a different skin colour, my skin colour, light skinned or like her teacher, "peach" (white).
So it annoys me when people think I'm somehow trying to take away women's "strength" and freedom to express themselves creatively with what they look like. Missing the point much? I think so.

Yeah, it's heart breaking how early on girls learn to reduce their own value to a mixed bag of physical attributes, almost all of which fall short of the "ideal". Good thing you're in her life, though, since one good female role model is worth a thousand photoshopped magazine covers to a little girl.

 

[Sunstone]

The men I know don't do any of that stuff. They're all very "wash and go". They have to deal with shaving (or not, as the case may be - it's all just a bit of fun anyway, right?) When I say my husband is a tart, I mean he takes more time getting dressed than I do (picking out and ironing one of a huge collection of nearly identical black shirts) and likes to groom the edges of his full, ultra-manly beard before going out on the town. Occasionally he trims his prodigious crop of nose hair and once (only once) he let me wax his back for swimsuit season. That's a tart in Canada.

My personal opinion is that, for the most part, men don't experience the anxiety I'm talking about. They can shave or not shave and walk out the door feeling more or less equally self-confident, and whatever they decide to do with their face, it probably says something positive to someone, somewhere. Ever heard of Movember? When tens of thousands of men all over the world sport ridiculous mustaches all month for a lark? Most women wouldn't feel comfortable going a whole month without shaving their pits or legs just for ***** and giggles.

Very rarely will men not walk out the door at all if something goes wrong in their "beauty" regime. Whereas with women, sometimes that anxiety can be so intense that I had a friend as a teen who would actually SKIP SCHOOL if she ran out of hair spray. She'd pretend she was sick. My own mom literally refused to go out in public before putting on lipstick and mascara. Granted, that's not a very time consuming regime, but she was nevertheless plagued with anxiety about letting anyone see her without the prerequisite beauty boosters. She hated going gray, too, and would be gutted and feel constantly embarrassed whenever something went wrong with a hair cut. The poor woman is and always has been a total knock-out, too.

I'm not saying men don't care about their appearance - of course they do, and everybody does to some extent. But it seems to me that for the most part they don't suffer from the incessant self-criticism many (of not most) women indulge in, and they don't suffer from the psychological discomforts of that bad habit to the same extent. For men, the basic "just rolled out of bed" look is awesome, and all that trimming, washing and grooming they do is only to make them even MORE awesome.

I don't know if things have changed, Alceste, but when I was growing up, men and boys were taught to think unkindly of any male who devoted much time and effort to his appearance. To be sure, you were supposed to be bathed, combed, shaved, and wear clean clothes that more or less fit you, but that was about it. And then the hippies came along and challenged even those minimal standards.

In other words, it wasn't just that, as a male, you weren't expected to be too concerned with appearances, it was that, as a male, you were looked down upon, considered vain and shallow, if you were too much concerned with appearances.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Yeah, it's heart breaking how early on girls learn to reduce their own value to a mixed bag of physical attributes, almost all of which fall short of the "ideal". Good thing you're in her life, though, since one good female role model is worth a thousand photoshopped magazine covers to a little girl.

I'm very touched by that Alceste, thank you.

 

[dawny0826]

The men I know don't do any of that stuff. They're all very "wash and go". They have to deal with shaving (or not, as the case may be - it's all just a bit of fun anyway, right?) When I say my husband is a tart, I mean he takes more time getting dressed than I do (picking out and ironing one of a huge collection of nearly identical black shirts) and likes to groom the edges of his full, ultra-manly beard before going out on the town. Occasionally he trims his prodigious crop of nose hair and once (only once) he let me wax his back for swimsuit season. That's a tart in Canada.

I didn't present all that as if every man does it all. But, why does any man do anything save clean himself? Male grooming habits stem from societal pressure and stereotype as well.

Father Heathen has a morning ritual. He's grossed out if his neck gets too hairy. He's not into hair not being shaved straight on the back of his head. He asks me to check and ensure that there's no hair poking out of his ears and nose. He asks me more than I ask him if his shirt looks alright and carries this comb thing that I bought him in his pocket and almost ceremoniously busts it out at random and combs his hair. "Hey baby, does my hair look alright?"

This is a dude who doesn't lack confidence and he's freaking adorable.

But, he's got these little "ticks" for lack of a better word. Certain things have to be a certain way or he's not happy.

My personal opinion is that, for the most part, men don't experience the anxiety I'm talking about. They can shave or not shave and walk out the door feeling more or less equally self-confident, and whatever they decide to do with their face, it probably says something positive to someone, somewhere. Ever heard of Movember? When tens of thousands of men all over the world sport ridiculous mustaches all month for a lark? Most women wouldn't feel comfortable going a whole month without shaving their pits or legs just for ***** and giggles.

I wouldn't over simplify the issue. Though, yes, I don't disagree that women have greater anxiety over such issues, I think it's imperative that we don't disregard the comparable anxieties that men face.

My husband won't leave the dang house if he hasn't showered. I will absolutely leave the house to pick up breakfast if I haven't showered. As long as I have clean clothes and have cleaned my face - I'm good.

He will not leave the house unless he smells heavenly. In fact, I can tell you with assuredly that I have always been with men who have smelled heavenly and would go outside to walk the dog without showering first. Even my ex husband would not leave the house (to work in dirt, yes, literal dirt) without a shower, first. FH is the same way. Come to think of it, my ex boyfriends were the same way. Maybe it's just me and I'm attracted to clean dudes, but, even my sisters' dudes are clean like that. They just don't go out into public if they aren't clean.

Me...I've gone to work for a half day before without makeup, and with just a quick wash down of all my girlie parts. I can do myself up quite pretty but when I'm not feeling it, I just don't do it.

Very rarely will men not walk out the door at all if something goes wrong in their "beauty" regime. Whereas with women, sometimes that anxiety can be so intense that I had a friend as a teen who would actually SKIP SCHOOL if she ran out of hair spray. She'd pretend she was sick. My own mom literally refused to go out in public before putting on lipstick and mascara. Granted, that's not a very time consuming regime, but she was nevertheless plagued with anxiety about letting anyone see her without the prerequisite beauty boosters. She hated going gray, too, and would be gutted and feel constantly embarrassed whenever something went wrong with a hair cut. The poor woman is and always has been a total knock-out, too.

Again, there's something a bit amiss with these chicks. And my husband will admit that he is a little OCD, as were the majority of the males that I've been blessed with in my lifetime.

Part of this is greatly self perception and self expectation as it is external pressure.

I'm not saying men don't care about their appearance - of course they do, and everybody does to some extent. But it seems to me that for the most part they don't suffer from the incessant self-criticism many (of not most) women indulge in, and they don't suffer from the psychological discomforts of that bad habit to the same extent. For men, the basic "just rolled out of bed" look is awesome, and all that trimming, washing and grooming they do is only to make them even MORE awesome.

Yes. But, many men do. And their pressures often come from the same sources. I think sometimes it's less evident to women as to how much thought men place into their appearance as efforts are less apparent and men are typically less verbose when discussing that which makes them insecure.

I also think that women are greatly pressured by other women as much as they are generic societal pressure. Again, you're not going to be bothered but so much unless something tickles an insecurity.