Become a muslim in three days or die

[GoodbyeDave]

Epic Beard Man takes a whole screen to tell us that Islamic law has the death penalty for abandoning Islam. Didn't we already know that?

And why does the person who was "born a Muslim" get treated worse than the one who converted? The convert made a promise to Allah and broke it. The "born Muslim" did nothing except draw the short straw when it came to parents.

And why can't Allah punish those who defy him, rather than rely on human law courts?

 

[LuisDantas]

(snip)

Wow. Just wow.

 

[icehorse]

Now you explain to me the basis on which you equate theocracy with totalitarianism, and then provide support for your contention that this period in muslim history, which lasted over half a millennium): Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia. was totalitarian.

One thing at a time:

Totalitarian = "total system" or "total solution". Any system that prescribes both the political and the religious is a totalitarian system, correct?

Perhaps this is where we're disagreeing, on the semantics? Because near the top of your link to the golden age, is the statement that during the golden age, Muslim societies were mostly run by caliphates, which again are totalitarian.

 

[LuisDantas]

Epic Beard Man takes a whole screen to tell us that Islamic law has the death penalty for abandoning Islam. Didn't we already know that?

And why does the person who was "born a Muslim" get treated worse than the one who converted? The convert made a promise to Allah and broke it. The "born Muslim" did nothing except draw the short straw when it came to parents.

A relevant question. Apparently there is either an explicit or an implicit expectation that parents should have the authority to decide what their children do believe or should believe in. Therefore they become "traitors" if they show evidence of having minds of their own.

And why can't Allah punish those who defy him, rather than rely on human law courts?

Everyone loves to be the tool of Allah's vengeance, I guess.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No I'm not. I've read the Quran, I've read biographies of Muhammad, and I've studied a bit of Islamic history. It has ALWAYS been a totalitarian ideology with a religious facet.

Since you are well read why not speak to a Muslim outside the internet about their faith?

 

[`mud]

Ahhh...but for the fear of `Allah`, what would we fear,
oh...our fathers and brothers and cousins and maybe our sisters.
There's seems to be a dependency on fear of something, doesn't there !

 

[icehorse]

Since you are well read why not speak to a Muslim outside the internet about their faith?

I have, thank you very much. In my experience, I know more about Islam than most of the Muslims I've met in the US. I haven't made live discussions a huge project however.

But my real answer is that when we're discussing 1.7 billion people, I don't think individual stories mean that much. It could be that individual interviews could provide the basis for constructing polls that could be administered on a broad basis. I'd say that broader polls ARE useful.

My other answer is that we can look at history and we can look at modern times. Most of this evidence is that Muslim majority societies tend to be theocratic. This isn't surprising since theocracy is baked into Islamic thinking.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Epic Beard Man takes a whole screen to tell us that Islamic law has the death penalty for abandoning Islam. Didn't we already know that?

If you all knew that, the OP wouldn’t have posed the question.

And why does the person who was "born a Muslim" get treated worse than the one who converted? The convert made a promise to Allah and broke it. The "born Muslim" did nothing except draw the short straw when it came to parents.

Well you must understand the culture of the times during the Hijra. Islam was not just a faith but a community which is infused with Islamic customs and desires behaviors. A born Muslim is not just one who affirms faith but is said to be culturally ingrained, and is supposed to be solid in faith and in culture. Perhaps the law sees this as some sort of an abandonment of the culture whereas someone who is considered a revert is not aware of typical “Muslim customs” so compassion is therefore administered for the revert because they may or may not appropriately know the rules within the Muslim community.

I think the point I’m trying to draw is you have a lifestyle that draw a serious consideration of declaration of a belief in God. Perhaps this is due to the evolution of the Muslim community. At any rate the explanation provided was in accordance to a Shia positioning based on their jurisprudence.

I think it helps to explain this in detail because it’s important to have an understanding of the legal system.

Emmm

And why can't Allah punish those who defy him, rather than rely on human law courts?

Why can’t Allah put $50 million in my checling account when I ask him? Because humans are self governing creatures.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I have, thank you very much. In my experience, I know more about Islam than most of the Muslims I've met in the US. I haven't made live discussions a huge project however.

But my real answer is that when we're discussing 1.7 billion people, I don't think individual stories mean that much. It could be that individual interviews could provide the basis for constructing polls that could be administered on a broad basis. I'd say that broader polls ARE useful.

My other answer is that we can look at history and we can look at modern times. Most of this evidence is that Muslim majority societies tend to be theocratic. This isn't surprising since theocracy is baked into Islamic thinking.

What say you about the Muslims in Michigan? Or New York, or Orange County? You claim to know more about Muslims but I don’t think simply reading stuff if enough. Because given history Islam was never the issue in fact there is more historical documentation of Muslim in-fighting than conquests.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Wow. Just wow.

????

Snip?

 

[ecco]

If you became a Revoltifarian, but then recanted, we have no punishment for you.
But you would be denied the free donuts on Saturday...unless you ask nicely.

I never recanted because I never became aRevoltifarian but I never got any free donuts on Saturday anyway.

There must be some other strange happenings going on stopping me from getting free Saturday donuts.

 

[Fool]

Is it true in islam if you change from islam away and dont go back in three days, they kill you?

you suppose if god rejected islam, they'd kill it?


Allahu Akabar

 

[icehorse]

What say you about the Muslims in Michigan? Or New York, or Orange County? You claim to know more about Muslims but I don’t think simply reading stuff if enough. Because given history Islam was never the issue in fact there is more historical documentation of Muslim in-fighting than conquests.

Careful here. I said that I tend to know more about ISLAM than the Muslims I've met in person do. And I've admitted that the Muslims I've met personally amount to a tiny, tiny sample size. That's why I don't think personal anecdotes - on their own - amount to much.

As for Muslim in-fighting, I agree that that is an unfortunate theme that runs through almost all of Islamic history. But the in-fighting is mostly a separate issue from whether or not the societies were largely theocratic.

As for Muslim communities in the US, the only one I have much of an opinion on is the community around Dearborn, Mi., and I have to say I've seen some troubling, anti-secular things there.

 

[ecco]

A religion is suppose to be, you know, respectable. And to take itself with a modicum of seriousness and self-respect. And to have a working understanding of moral and virtue.

Islaam fulfills none of those conditions.

Can you name one that does fulfill those conditions?

 

[FearGod]

Can you name one that does fulfill those conditions?

All except Islam.

 

[Notanumber]

Since you are well read why not speak to a Muslim outside the internet about their faith?

Because we do not have a death wish.

 

[74x12]

Is it true in islam if you change from islam away and dont go back in three days, they kill you?

People are killed all the time for leaving Islam. Not that it always happens but it very often does. I've heard cases where families will starve their own family member and beat them in order to get them to return to Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

Can you name one that does fulfill those conditions?

Sure. There are at least dozens.

Islaam is indeed remarkable in how completely it surrenders to its own worst instincts. Most other doctrines and even most actual Muslims do much better.

 

[exchemist]

Nope. A religion is suppose to be, you know, respectable. And to take itself with a modicum of seriousness and self-respect. And to have a working understanding of moral and virtue.

Islaam fulfills none of those conditions.

You think islam does not take itself seriously?

And has no understanding of morals and virtue?

Really?

 

[exchemist]

People are killed all the time for leaving Islam. Not that it always happens but it very often does. I've heard cases where families will starve their own family member and beat them in order to get them to return to Islam.

Examples?