Become a muslim in three days or die

[Epic Beard Man]

They keep talking about the greatness of their religion without managing to mention one great thing about it. Task: hopeless

What is so great about being a Lutheran? Or of any Christian sect?

 

[Anthem]

Why can’t Allah put $50 million in my checling account when I ask him? Because humans are self governing creatures.

Or maybe your middle prayer has been sloppy recently?

 

[Anthem]

And has no understanding of morals and virtue?

I haven't made up my mindyet but it is starting to look like it.

 

[Anthem]

You might care to read this: Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia

The foundation of the huge growth of knowledge under Islam in the Mediaeval period was due to the importance they placed on education, which was directly inspired by the Koran.

Your remarks may apply to extreme muslim fundamentalists today, but it is perfectly clear from history that this is far from intrinsic to Islam itself.

The education in most muslim countries is not relatively high - though the muslims there in seem to think it sufficient because they have no clue what the rest of the world has - insert here the frog in the well quote.

 

[Anthem]

What is so great about being a Lutheran? Or of any Christian sect?

That I can leave the church and live for instance - but that is not the topic here. And does not prove your point if you have one.

 

[lukethethird]

Is it true in islam if you change from islam away and dont go back in three days, they kill you?

My advise would be to eat all the bacon you can in those three days.

 

[exchemist]

From the wikipedia article on totalitarianism:

While I agree with your definition, I also think mine is appropriate. I did not mean to imply that Islamic societies have been like the USSR or Hitler's Germany. But I did mean to say that Islam prescribes a system in which Islam controls virtually all aspects of life.

But that's rot: it doesn't, as the history of islam shows. I have yet to see any evidence that past muslim societies controlled the life of the people any more restrictively than Christian ones did at the same epoch. Do you have any evidence that they did?

 

[exchemist]

Muslims often claim that Islam fostered a rich heritage of scientific discovery, “paving the way” for modern advances in technology and medicine.

On this subject, they usually cite the period between the 7th and 13th centuries, when Europe was experiencing its “Dark Ages” and the Muslim world was acquiring new populations and culture through violent conquest.

The Truth:
Although there is no arguing that the Muslim world was relatively more advanced during this Middle Age period than the Christian world, the reasons for this have absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic religion - other than its mandate for military expansion. In fact, the religion tends to discourage knowledge outside of itself (Quran 5:101-102), which is why the most prolific Muslim scholars are mostly students of religion rather than science.

[Note that the country of Spain alone translates more learning material and literature into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the 9th century. As the Saudi Grand Mufti bluntly put it in 2010, "The Quran with its stories and knowledge are sufficient for us... we don't need the Torah, or Gospels, or any other book"].

The many fundamentalists and other devotees who dress as Muhammad did and adopt 7th century lifestyles to some degree underscore the importance of tradition in Islam. The religion is highly conservative and resistant to change, which is viewed with suspicion. As scholar Bernard Lewis points out: in Islam, an innovation is presumed to be bad unless it can be proven to be good.

Myth: Islam and Scientific Discovery

It's not just muslims that "claim" this. It is what historians acknowledge to be true.

By the way your link is blocked by the filters on my IT service provider, so I can only assume it is some kind of poisonous propaganda. Have you a link to a respctable source instead, that makes your point?

 

[Fool]

They would probably kill themselves thinking it's their fault.

my love, my love, my drug, my god.

they're f 'ed up

 

[ecco]

Nope. A religion is suppose to be, you know, respectable. And to take itself with a modicum of seriousness and self-respect. And to have a working understanding of moral and virtue.

Islaam fulfills none of those conditions.

Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, Paganism more generally, Satanism, much of Christianity, Jainism, Shinto.

And Islaam-in-rehab, better known as the Bahai Faith.

OK, let's talk about the morality of Christianity.
God created Adam & Eve to fail and then blamed them for the failure.
God killed nearly all humans and nearly all animals and all plants because He was upset His creation didn't turn out the way He knew it would.
God told his followers to kill of the young male offspring of a defeated army.
God raped a young virgin.

Its followers use it's holy scripture to justify and promote racism, slavery, bigotry and scientific ignorance.

 

[Niblo]

The answer is more complex and often cited as a black and white answer according to those who hate Islam so allow me to offer a more academic approach to the issue. To answer why apostasy (irtidād) is taken so seriously we need to begin with the Natural state of Islam, that is, the idea that all human beings are born with an innate sense of belief in God. When it comes to apostasy, in Islam, apostasy is seen in equivalence to treason of the faith. In western society treason in this sense is limited to political/national alliegence. Ironically the idea of treason even defined in estern terms has been stretched to include non-political and non-military matters as well as one author notes:

"In England, treason includes violating the King's consort, or raping the monarch's eldest married daughter, as well as the sexual violation of the wife of the eldest son and heir. Even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason."

See: Professor Ali Mazrui, The Satanic Verse or a Satanic Novel, p. 4-5

Just as undertaking upholding the constitution of the United States is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it would be treasonous which is the same way as one who openly rejects Islam. Author and scholar Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi writes in the following:

"It must be emphasized that the irtidād that we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with full realization of what one's statements or actions imply. If a Muslim has a genuine doubt on an Islamic matter, that process of doubting does not automatically classify him as a murtad.

A murtad must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means--casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God.

The punishment prescribed by the shari`ah for apostasy is death.

Even the terms used by the shari`ah for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli."

Here the scholar notes the distinctions:

(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostate from the faith in which he was born.
(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community.

"In the first case, the apostasy is like the treason against God; whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like the treason against the Muslim community. Probably, that is why the Sh`iah jurisprudence deals with these two kinds of murtads differently.

The following is the legal distribution of justice in accordance to Shari'ah Law concerning apostasy:

• A former kāfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.

• But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allāh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.'

However according to the scholar, if the murtad is to meet their punishment in Daru el-Islam (The Muslim World) but flees to Daru el-Kufr (The abode of the kufr), then they are not to be pursued (Shaykh al-Mufid, al-Muqni`ah (Qum: Jami`a Mudarrisin, 1410) pl 781; Ibn Hamzah at-Tusi, al-Wasilah ila Nayli 'l-Fadilah (Qum: Maktaba as-Sayyid al-Mar`ashi, 1408) p. 424-5; Muhaqqiq al-Hilli, Sharā'i` al-Islām, vol. 4 (Tehran: al-Istiqlāl, 1409) p. 961-2.).

According to the punishment of apostasy, scholars note sources from Hadith as we see int he following example:

"Shaykh al-Kulayni narrates a sahāh (correct) hadith from `Ammār as-Sābāti who said: I heard (Imam) Abu `Abdullāh (as-Sādiq) (a.s.) saying, "A Muslim from among the Muslims who renounces Islam and rejects the prophethood of Muhammad and considers him untrue, then verily his blood is lawful (mubāh) for anyone who hears that from him, his wife is to be separated from him the day he became murtad, his wealth will be divided among his heirs, and his wife will observe the`idda of a widow (i.e., four months). The Imam is obliged to kill him, and not ask him to seek forgiveness."

Source: Furu al-Kāfi, vol. 7, p. 257. This hadith has also been quoted by Shaykh as-Sadāq, Man la Yahdhuruhu al-Faqāh,vol. 3, p.89, and Shaykh at-Tusi, Tahdhibu 'l-Ahkām, vol. 10, p. 136

Remember the idea of three days (or a set number of days) are to allow the individual to repent for their thought of rejecting Islam. From a religious point of viewthis is meant as a form to mitigate any thoughts that might arise due to personal circumstances such as being in a tragedy and blaming God and the religion for said tragedy. Often times people become disbelievers based on unfortunate negative circumstances. The period of three days is meant to give the individual time to reason their way out of being considered a murtad.

Apostasy is not like how we view apostasy here in the western world as this free endeavor to disbelieve in God, rather it would appear as an injustice of sorts against God and community. Although the Qur'an highlights the punishment in the hereafter, when looking at the punishment of apostasy, depending on the jurispredence that is considered to meet out punishment, the sunnah is considered.

Congratulations for your scholarly approach to this subject. Please allow me to add a few comments.

I believe that apostasy laws are enforced for political rather than religious reasons. Autocratic religious states (and organisations) have always used the threat of punishment as a means of control. When the Church was a power to be reckoned with - when it controlled every aspect of a believer’s life - it did not hesitate to punish apostasy (and heresy) with death. Only when the Church lost its secular powers were people free to think and to do as they pleased.

As you know, Muslims consider the Qur’an to be the very the word of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). This is why it is considered to be the primary and supreme source of jurisprudence in Islam. The Sunnah (the practice of Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) comes next. Both leave no doubt that apostasy - of itself - is not a punishable offense at all; let alone by death.

The only justification for punishing an apostate is when that person goes on to commit a criminal offence - such as murder; theft; treason or some form of war crime.

The Qur’an mentions, repeatedly, freedom of conscience as one of its fundamental tenets:

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing.’ (Al-Baqara: Verse 256); and again: ‘(Prophet), follow what has been revealed to you of your Lord’s Scripture: there is no changing His words, nor can you find any refuge except with Him. Content yourself with those who pray to their Lord morning and evening, seeking His approval, and do not let your eyes turn away from them out of desire for the attractions of this worldly life: do not yield to those whose hearts We have made heedless of Our Qur’an, those who follow their own low desires, those whose ways are unbridled. Say: “Now the truth has come from your Lord”: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so.’ (Al-Kahf: Verse 29).

The Qur’an makes it perfectly clear that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was to deliver the message, and nothing more. He was NOT to impose it by force:

‘Allāh bears witness that there is no god but Him, as do the angels and those who have knowledge. He upholds justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All Wise. True Religion, in Allāh’s eyes, is (devotion to Him alone). Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge - if anyone denies Allāh’s revelations, Allāh is swift to take account- if they argue with you (Prophet), say: “I have devoted myself to Allāh alone and so have my followers. Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one: “Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?” If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, your only duty is to convey the message. Allāh is aware of His servants.’ (Al-‘Imran: Verses 18-20); and again: ‘Obey Allāh, obey the Messenger, and always be on your guard: if you pay no heed, bear in mind that the sole duty of Our Messenger is to deliver the message clearly.’ (Al-Ma’ida: Verse 92).

We are given free choice to accept the message of Islam; to refuse it; or to return to it.

Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it prescribe any human punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reserves sole right to impart judgment for these choices in the afterlife.

It amuses me to see extremists - such as the Wahhabis - and critics of Islam at odds with the Qur’an on this issue. Both go to great lengths to misrepresent its clear verses in order to portray their own perverted theological or political viewpoint. Both regurgitate the same fallacious arguments, and offer them as ‘authentic’ Islam.

Apostasy laws - like the blasphemy laws - have been borrowed from older scriptures. They have no basis in the Qur’an. This is why clerics who espouse such extremist beliefs show continued reluctance to debate Muslim scholars and intellectuals on this issue.

You have a good day now.

 

[ecco]

The following is the legal distribution of justice in accordance to Shari'ah Law concerning apostasy:

• A former kāfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.

• But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents.

Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it prescribe any human punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reserves sole right to impart judgment for these choices in the afterlife.

Ah, the beauty of religion. As Zero Mostel proclaimed: Something for everyone...A comedy tonight.

Two posting by two people who seem to know a lot about Islam. Two postings with completely opposite views on what holy scripture says and means.

As I posted earlier, thank god I'm an atheist.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Ah, the beauty of religion. As Zero Mostel proclaimed: Something for everyone...A comedy tonight.

Two posting by two people who seem to know a lot about Islam. Two postings with completely opposite views on what holy scripture says and means.

As I posted earlier, thank god I'm an atheist.

If you actually read my post, the position of apostasy and punishment depends on the school of thought you uphold. It is true in the Qur'an there is no law in the Qur'an that talks about meeting out physical punishment. It does talk about a punishment in the afterlife....Not sure why you think its clever....

Not even sure why godless people concern themselves with Islam, you're better off worrying more about Christianity.

 

[LuisDantas]

OK, let's talk about the morality of Christianity.
God created Adam & Eve to fail and then blamed them for the failure.
God killed nearly all humans and nearly all animals and all plants because He was upset His creation didn't turn out the way He knew it would.
God told his followers to kill of the young male offspring of a defeated army.
God raped a young virgin.

Its followers use it's holy scripture to justify and promote racism, slavery, bigotry and scientific ignorance.

Christianity, granted, shares a lot of Islaam's flaws. It mistakes the roles of its own symbolic concepts almost to the point of full collapse. The operative word here being "almost".

But it still allows itself just a sliver of maneuvering room to learn better along time. It has cost it dearly and made it nearly irrelevant, but so is the deal.

 

[ecco]

Not even sure why godless people concern themselves with Islam, you're better off worrying more about Christianity.

Why would you refer to me as "godless"? If there is a god/creator, than I am no more godless than any other person, plant or animal - we would all be products of this god.

If by "godless" you mean that I am one of many who have come to the rational understanding that god myths are no different than Santa Claus myths, then OK.

I, like most rational people, worry about the effects Christianity has on the internal workings of the various levels of governments in my country.

I, like most rational people, worry about the effects Islam has on the stability of the world.

 

[Niblo]

Ah, the beauty of religion. As Zero Mostel proclaimed: Something for everyone...A comedy tonight.

Two posting by two people who seem to know a lot about Islam. Two postings with completely opposite views on what holy scripture says and means.

As I posted earlier, thank god I'm an atheist.

Jolly good.

 

[ecco]

But it still allows itself just a sliver of maneuvering room to learn better along time.

As long as religious scripture is open to interpretation there will always be "maneuvering room" to tip the scales in either direction. The passage of time does not necessarily equate to learning better ways.

2000/3000 years after they were written the words in the Christian holy scripture justified the owning of slaves, the beating of homosexuals and the mass killing of Jews.

Years after the words of the Koran were written, Sunnis and Shiias find justification for killing each other and threatening non-Muslims.

 

[exchemist]

The education in most muslim countries is not relatively high - though the muslims there in seem to think it sufficient because they have no clue what the rest of the world has - insert here the frog in the well quote.

True but not relevant to the issue.

The assertion I have been challenging is that there is something intrinsic to islam that is opposed to learning. It seems to me that is disproved by the considerable achievement of muslim societies, over a period of 500 years when Christian Europe had little to show.

It is undeniable that many modern muslim societies seem inward-looking and backward, largely (I suggest) because of the disproportionate influence of the oil-funded Wahhabi sect. But that tells you little about the intrinsic stance of the religion towards learning.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Is it true in islam if you change from islam away and dont go back in three days, they kill you?

Thousands of Muslims have been killed by their family members for leaving Islam. Leaving Islam carries a mandatory death sentence and it must be carried out as soon as it is discovered that the person attempted to leave.
Muslims convert their subjects at the point of a sword and the only way to leave is by beheading. It's no different to the Mafia, where the only way out is in a coffin.

 

[`mud]

Epic said:
"...the idea that all human beings are born with an innate sense of belief in God."
REALLY ???
That is one of the largest reasons why the theists believe the way they think !
At least the followers of Brahma and Buddha have a lot of idols to worship.

No one is born with any religious beliefs....no one !!!

I'm with Ecco...proud to not be a theist !