• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Behind the killing of 8 Gazan family members

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
They are not targeting the hospitals, schools, etc.

They are targeting the Hamas command centers in them.

If a child dies because Hamas intentionally uses that child as a human side the death is solely the responsibility of Hamas.

Israel has a duty to protect it's citizens. What about the rockets shot from these places that the Israeli children have to deal with?

Hamas is SOLELY responsible for the deaths of their human shields.

If a criminal takes some people hostage and you were to shoot at the hostages to get the criminal you are responsible for the death of those hostages, because you have made the decision to disregard the life of those kept hostage. That is exactly what Israel is doing.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
There is just no proof that this is being done on a wide scale or if people are being given enough time to evacuate at all. In fact I have not seen proof of it being done at all. If you show me proof I will believe you. It still does not exonerate Israel of targeting civilians even if they warn them.

You really just ignored it.

I dont know what to say.
Well you also ignored the incident in Paris so i probably shouldnt be surprised.


What is wrong by wanting see proof that they really are?

I get it, the Israeli police should drive there inside their totally not armored police car and ring the bell.

But then again Israel is at war with the Gaza Strip. Has been ever since Hamas has taken over.
You dont handle War zones like you'd handle downtown Tel-Aviv Caladan is digging all through my garden in his quest for some stupid antique coins incidents.
And even though Israel is at war with them they still give them electricity, you know the electricity used for making the rockets. It even lets UN-aid through.

There is also no one available to inspect anything. There is no third party which doesnt have a horse in the race.
Ever since Hezbollah played rocket launching olympics next to UN soldiers who were like "oh noes" the UN kinda has an even worse image in Israel than it did before.

So thats it.
Ever since Israel has left the Gaza-Strip the south has been terrorized with Rockets, Mortars, more Rockets and more Mortars.
And guess what they kinda want it to end. If that means rolling into Gaza and blowing up every house that remotely looks like "Terrorist Base" so be it.
Because those people have learned that Land for Peace apparently doesnt work. Its always amazing to see how people who voted Labour drifted more and more into the Conservative camp and everyone outside of Israel was like "how could that be???". But the fact remains that the whole conflict just gets into the news once Israel has made an Airstrike into Gaza and everyone is like "OH GOD NO" while ignoring all the stuff before that.
And at the end of the day the people in Gaza arent just innocent. They made Hamas strong and through the sheer abundance of weapons always had the option to try an uprising. Bound to fail? Well if you dont want to be ruled by crazy people you either remove them or help a third party removing them.
From time to time there are even anti-Hamas demonstrations. But you dont remove people like Hamas with demonstrations. Either Gaza sorts out Hamas themselves or an outside party does the Job. Like the one amassing all the military hardware and what not right now.

On a personal note Skype calls to my cousin of a somewhat grade are rather short at the moment. They usually end when the siren pops up. Well okay for me the call ends or she forgets to stop the call and i hear it all. But when our conversation ultimately ends the whole action wont end for her and her family.



SG you are good at diffusing tension, you should consider becoming a diplomat

SG is weird! You see the avatar, check the location and read the post. Which leaves you terribly confused because somehow the antithesis of the Al-Sauds is having an audience.



So, um, can we hug?

:hugehug:

Perhaps.


:p
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
SG you are good at diffusing tension, you should consider becoming a diplomat

Hey man, what's up :)

Diplomats could some times lie and give us empty promises to make us quiet. Please believe me when I say that everything I say is honest and reflects my true intentions. Sometimes I even step on my dignity to stand up for what I believe the right thing :(

And, thanks, I take that as a compliment really :)

SG is weird! You see the avatar, check the location and read the post. Which leaves you terribly confused because somehow the antithesis of the Al-Sauds is having an audience.

I... I think I like you :hearts:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I sincerely hope Hamas reconsiders the ceasefire offer. There is no point to continuing unnecessary violence for either side.
From Haaretz:
Hamas still debating Egyptian proposal for cease-fire, says official

Hamas' political chief Khaled Meshal or his deputy Ismail Haniyeh is expected to release an official statement later Tuesday.

Hamas was still debating an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire on Tuesday, a top official said, hours after Israel's security cabinet accepted the proposal.

"We are still in consultation and there has been no official position made by the (Hamas) movement regarding the Egyptian proposal," Moussa Abu Marzouk, who was in Cairo, said in a Facebook posting.

Despite declarations made by Hamas and Islamic Jihad in opposition to the Egyptian cease-fire proposal on Tuesday morning, Palestinian sources told Haaretz that it is possible that in the next few hours Hamas' political leadership will hold direct talks with Egyptian intelligence in an effort to accept the cease-fire proposal.

Hamas' political chief Khaled Meshal or his deputy Ismail Haniyeh is expected to release an official statement later Tuesday. The statement depends on how the talks between Hamas' leadership and Egypt progress in the coming hours.

Earlier Tuesday, sources in Hamas and Islamic Jihad announced that Israel's acceptance of the cease-fire agreement is an empty gesture, since Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip are continuing. Senior members of the two organizations downplayed the significance of the Egyptian initiative, and the possibility that a cease-fire would meet their demands. These demands include lifting the siege on Gaza, ending the military activity in the West Bank, the release of all those rearrested after being released in the Shalit prisoner exchange, and the improvement of the conditions of the Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

Osama Hamdan, head of the Hamas international relations department, said Tuesday on the Hamas website that Israel's decision was an "attempt to escape the distress the Palestinian resistance has put them in," adding that Israel "must agree to the demands of the factions to enable discussions on a real cease-fire." Abu Imad Rifai, a Beirut spokesman for Islamic Jihad, cautioned that the Israeli announcement may be a trick intended to escalate the siege on Gaza and the pressure on Gaza militants.
Just outrageous.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I don't think the warnings exist at all. I think the whole "we are warning them" thing is nothing but propaganda to appease the conscience of their apologists and supporters. I don't for one minute believe that the victims of these murderers are given fair warning. Not for one minute.
What is wrong by wanting see proof that they really are?
You are "wanting" nothing. You've established your truth and facts be damned - facts that have been spread all over the news including repeated clips on CNN.

As I said before, blind hatred is, first and foremost, blind. It is also irresponsible and obnoxious - time for the ignore list.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From the Jerusalem Post:
VIENNA -- US Secretary of State John Kerry blamed Hamas for powering through a ceasefire with Israel, brokered by the Egyptian government and accepted by Israel's cabinet Tuesday morning.

At least 35 rockets have been fired from the Gaza Strip since the ceasefire was set to begin, mere hours ago.

"I cannot condemn strongly enough the actions of Hamas in so brazenly firing rockets in multiple numbers in the face of a goodwill effort to offer a ceasefire, in which Egypt and Israel worked together, that the international community strongly supports," Kerry told reporters in Vienna on Tuesday morning.

Kerry said that Hamas is "purposely playing politics" by continuing the rocket fire, using innocent lives as "human shields... against the laws of war." "And that is why they are a terrorist organization," Kerry added.

The secretary is ready to fly back to the region at any moment, he said, and is declining to do so now in the hopes that Egypt's effort to broker a ceasefire itself will bear fruit. But the US fears the potential for an even greater escalation of violence, he said.

"Perhaps reason could prevail" within Hamas, Kerry continued, "if the political wing could deal with the military wing."

Kerry canceled a hastily-planned trip to the Middle East on Tuesday morning, relying instead on a ceasefire brokered by the Egyptian government between Israel and the Palestinians to at least temporarily end the conflict.

Israel's government has accepted the proposal, but Hamas - the primary perpetrator of rocket fire from Gaza against Israeli cities and towns over the last month - has yet to respond to the paper, which calls for an end to hostilities followed by dialogue.

"The Egyptian proposal for a ceasefire and negotiations provides an opportunity to end the violence and restore calm," Kerry said. "We welcome the Israeli cabinet’s decision to accept it. We urge all other parties to accept the proposal.”

Kerry will instead return to Washington from Vienna, where he has been engaging Iranian leadership directly over its controversial nuclear program.

"Secretary Kerry has been deeply engaged in conversations with Prime Minister Netanyahu, Egyptian government officials and President Abbas throughout this difficult period, and the United States remains committed to working with them and our regional partners to find a resolution to this dangerous and volatile situation," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.
So we begin another day in the West listening to the anti-Semites and their peanut gallery rail against Zionist aggression.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If there is really a problem with hamas then civilians wouldnt put them into their houses and die for them as you indicated.
Goof grief!

Blame Israel and Hamas both for Gaza’s civilian deaths

Sorting through the propaganda war.

The main outrage now, in the fourth day (Friday) of Operation Protective Edge, as Israel calls it, is the rising number of killings of Palestinian civilians by Israeli airstrikes, mainly as a result of attacks on residential buildings where militants live or are thought to live.

Haaretz reported that the Palestinian Health Ministry said that of the 86 Gazans killed by Wednesday night, most were children (22), women (15) and the elderly (12). And that didn’t count the five members, at least, of the Ghaneem family in Rafah who were killed when their four-story building, home to some 30 people, was hit overnight.

As usual, the propaganda war between Israel and the Palestinians over civilian casualties goes like this: Palestinians accuse Israel of deliberately targeting civilians, while Israel blames the deaths and injuries on Hamas and other militant groups for using the civilian population as “human shields.”

But the Palestinians’ accusation against Israel is false, while the Israeli claim against the Palestinians is partly false, partly true, but basically misleading. The main reason for the high number of Palestinian civilian casualties, obviously, is that an incredibly powerful air force is bombing the hell out of one of the most crowded, vulnerable places in the world – and the fault for that lies with Israel, whose punitive, often lethal blockade of Gaza, together with its military occupation of the West Bank, invites Palestinians to fight back. As in all its wars with the Palestinians since 1967, Israel is the aggressor in Operation Protective Edge.

But while the Israeli Air Force’s assault guarantees that a high proportion of civilians in Gaza are going to get killed and maimed, that’s not because of the air force’s efforts in this respect, but despite them. TIME Magazine’s Karl Vick wrote on Thursday:
Compared with any other military, [Israel’s] armed forces take exceptional care to avoid civilian casualties. If a house is going to be bombed, a call is placed to it announcing this fact, and explicitly warning civilians to get out. A pilot might also drop a “door-knocker” on the roof — a nonlethal sound bomb also intended to announce an impending attack. The real bomb that’s then loosed on the target is often a munition, sometimes quite small, specifically selected to contain damage to the target and spare the neighbors.​
The problem is not that the Israeli army is unusually brutal, as armies go; if anything, the opposite is the case. The problem – in Gaza and the West Bank, now and before – is that the IDF is a colonial army, which is an inherently brutal role, one that other armies were ordered by their governments to give up decades ago.

About Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other armed groups using Gazan civilians as “human shields.” This Israeli claim is based on the fact that Gazan militants live among the civilian population and keep much of their weaponry in the neighborhoods. But this is hypocrisy; every guerrilla army that fights on its own turf against an incomparably stronger enemy fights from among the civilian population. The pre-1948 Irgun and Lehi guerrillas would kill the British, then “melt back” into the Jewish neighborhoods. In Tel Aviv and Ramat Gan, there are civilian public buildings – including schools – with plaques at the entrance telling how they housed weapons caches and training camps for the Irgun, Lehi or Haganah. Up through Israel’s War of Independence, the kibbutzim were military outposts as much as they were civilian settlements.

But in another regard, the charge that Hamas uses Gazan civilians as human shields is absolutely true, and Hamas deserves loud condemnation for it. Karl Vick in Time:
Israel’s military says Hamas is promoting civilian deaths in Gaza, not only by operating from private homes but through posters and slogans actually urging people to cluster around targets as human shields. In one instance Tuesday, by numerous accounts local residents ran toward a building that had just received a phoned warning it was about to be bombed, apparently counting on their presence to protect. And it might have worked: an Israeli military spokesman said an effort was made to divert the incoming missile, but it was too late.​
Haaretz reported on Thursday that the Gaza Interior Ministry – run, of course, by Hamas – sent out text messages to Gazan residents calling on them to disregard Israeli warnings to evacuate their homes ahead of the airstrikes. “The aim of the [warnings] is to scare civilians, and civilians must act responsibly and not follow misleading Israeli instructions,” the message read.

This is vile; families are told by their leaders to stay put in their homes when they know they are about to be bombed by F-16s? It’s something like this that tells you no matter how much Hamas may be on the receiving end of Israel’s manhandling of Gaza, and no matter how much it may be the weaker side, it is not any reasonable person’s idea of the “good guy” in this or any other circumstance.

And yet. Hamas’ terrible abuse of Gaza’s civilians in this way is not entirely divorced from (though it is much worse than) the way Israeli society used to consider it shameful for civilians to leave their homes under rocket attack. Good Israelis were supposed to say, defiantly, “This is my home and no terrorist is going to run me out.” As late as the 1991 Gulf War, when many Tel Aviv residents rode out the Scuds at their parents’ homes out of town instead of trusting the plastic sheeting and tape on their windows to protect them from harm, they were widely accused of cowardice. Things have changed since then; the “I” has overtaken the “we” in the Israeli mentality. But through the 1980s, which saw thousands of Lebanese rockets fall on northern Israeli towns, it was considered an Israeli adult’s patriotic duty (though not that of the children, who were sent to safety if possible) to sit at home, helpless, risking his or her life against incoming rockets, for the sake of national morale.

So Israelis should not act that uncomprehending and self-righteous about Hamas’ conscription of defenseless civilians for the cause. And if Gazans are still pretty much stuck in the “we,” not “I,” mentality, Israel bears much of the blame.

But again, it is a great deal worse to pressure people into sitting still for almost certain death or serious injury than it is when such a fate is possible but not very likely. Hamas should be denounced for telling civilians to disregard the Israeli warnings to evacuate their homes. This directive is no doubt driving up Gaza’s civilian death and injury toll, and makes Hamas’ leaders the last people on earth to complain about it. If there’s any ray of hope in this ghastly matter, it’s that the Gazan Interior Ministry’s text message to ignore Israel’s warnings may indicate that a lot of Gazan families have been doing the right thing and running for their lives. [source]
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Both sides are at fault, I just cant wrap my head around why you had to give them Palestine? What did the palestinians do to the jews before the occupation? Give them Germany and Im happy that would be fair.

I dont understand why in this day and age, the biggest power shifts are based on scripture and prophecy.
Responding to the comment on page 15.

The reason that the Jews were dumped into formerly Jordanian territory after WWII is that was the will of the protestant Christians who had been talking about that very thing for over fifty years. Various groups were predicting when and how Israel would become a country again in order that their views of prophecies would be fulfilled. Therefore 'We protestants' manipulated the situation as much as we could and got 'The Jews', a bunch of secular people mostly, dumped into the middle east. Following this injection of secular Jews there arose a rapidly increasing population of non-secular ones. Now all of these people were stranded, marooned, in a very dangerous situation. Many people wanted them all dead, and from that arose the IDF etc etc.

That's why they're there.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
As Golda said:
"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

Seems like this gutter consciousness of Israel's enemies will never change.

seems like Israeli armies take it serious, and adopt this speech as a justification to killing Arabs kids ?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Responding to the comment on page 15.

The reason that the Jews were dumped into formerly Jordanian territory after WWII is that was the will of the protestant Christians who had been talking about that very thing for over fifty years. Various groups were predicting when and how Israel would become a country again in order that their views of prophecies would be fulfilled. Therefore 'We protestants' manipulated the situation as much as we could and got 'The Jews', a bunch of secular people mostly, dumped into the middle east. Following this injection of secular Jews there arose a rapidly increasing population of non-secular ones. Now all of these people were stranded, marooned, in a very dangerous situation. Many people wanted them all dead, and from that arose the IDF etc etc.

That's why they're there.
You know, Brick, sometimes one can wring too much out of history to make things understandable to the average Pop Tart.
 

ametist

Active Member
Israel has all the defense system and all the support to maintain that system. land attack was unneeded untill the diplomatic solution if that is really what is desired to stop parties from hurting each other.
Now some countries are sending away diplomats of israel back to their country.some are in south america.not even arabs. Is this a better way? Trying to fool people who can see what is going on is no good. Makes situation more shameful to make up such excuses and make it seem as if people are jumping on bombs. Even if they do why oh why? Because they have been cut off from world for years without an open harbour? Israel have the right to defend themselves with all that money and opportunity and what about others.
This incident made me think very critical of US policy and ethics as well. Never before it was that apparent. It is like thinking whole world is fool.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Israel has all the defense system and all the support to maintain that system. land attack was unneeded until ...
Land attack was 'needed' as soon as Hamas callously (1) escalated the conflict, (2) rejected a general ceasefire, and (3) violate the humanitarian ceasefire. To fail to understand this is idiotic, dishonest, or both.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Perhaps the Hamas should not have put them in harm's way.

Hamas almost did not exist in West Bank , so the why the West Bank occupated by Israel ?

Hamas is not justification for killing Palestinians families by bombs .

do you believe Israeli army bombing kids and militaries of Hamas ?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Hamas almost did not exist in West Bank , so the why the West Bank occupated by Israel ?

Because there was a war and one side suffered a humiliating defeat. But the task at hand is to stop the terrorist attacks by Hamas which threaten Israelis and Palestinians alike.
 
Top