Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things...

[Sundree]

This post argues semantics. Faith goes deeper than a book. It goes deeper than written words, dates, times, people, Jesus even. We were not alive for any of this. Many of us are born into homes of certain faiths and because that is what we learned growing up as a child when we as young children would ask those spiritual types of questions, would be answered according to how our parents were taught. If there are few of us out there that strived to learn more than what we are simply fed by our parents, or whatever church, temple or altar they brought us to as children, then studies of other world religions may have impacted our lives. Asking such a question to people here on this board is meaningless. It only sparks the need to question all things, leading into other conversations pondering the meaning of life, why we are here, and who will save us from death, and other topics of faith related debates.

In the end, the real question is does it even matter? Will Jesus matter? If I chose to believe outside of Jesus, but lived a good life, obeyed all the commandments (because I would even if they werent "laws"), if I loved a higher spirit, my own creator, but never went to church, or said grace before every meal, or insisted that only through Jesus would I be saved...at the end of all days, does any of that really matter? I dont think the petty semantics will matter at all.

 

[gnomon]

Is it possible to create a program that randomly pulls scripture off a website and pictures from another site featuring models and then puts them together on an internet discussion forum.

I thought bots were disabled.

 

[ayani]

Since Nephi is not part of the Biblical tradition, it's just not good scholarship to compare the two. No, Nephi is not proof that people eliminated any references to Jesus in the OT. The OT writers didn't know about Jesus, since he hadn't been born yet.

true.

these verses refer to God, Ha-Shem, not to Messiah specifically, or even to Messiah as God.

it can be argued that Jesus is God made man from His own words in the Gospel narratives, and the belief that Jesus is God is central to much of historical Christian faith.

but to say that these Isaiah verses refer to Messiah.... there is defiantly a distinction between God and His Messiah, even as Messiah identifies Himself in a unique way with the God who sent Him.

it's easy to insert one's own ideas into the text as one reads the Bible, and a lot of people do it. but if we want to know what the Author is saying to us, it's good to read carefully, literally, and to take into consideration context and theme.

 

[FFH]

This is ridiculous. You, who purportedly believe that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being, must, therefore, also believe that he lived at a point in time. How could he, then, "testify of himself in the OT," when a) he wasn't born yet, and b) did not write any of the OT?

Jesus is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, the Great I AM. He was the God Moses and the prophets spoke to, in the Old Testament, and also in the the New Testament. He came to earth, fulfilling his own prophecies, found in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 53

How does this prove anything? The OT Tradition is older than that.

Jesus is the AUTHOR of ALL INSPIRED scripture, including the OLD TESTAMENT and the NEW TESTAMENT (as long as it is translated correctly) and LDS (Mormon) scripture.

 

[EtuMalku]

Jesus didn't even exist, this is an old Dying/Resurrecting GodMan myth borrowed from much older myths.

Yeshua of Nazareth on the other hand probably existed, was a rebellious Jew that like all rebellious Jews, started His own sect of Judaism which was later dubbed Christianity from the Christ concept (Khristós) meaning "the anointed".

 

[ayani]

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

this passage says that all scripture is inspired by God, not by Jesus.

Jesus wasn't revealed as Messiah in history before His incarnation. it is God with whom the prophets speak, at whose behest they speak, and whose interactions with mankind they record. to say that Messiah Jesus wrote or inspired the scriptures isn't exactly right.

we know from the NT that Jesus had a pre-incarnate existence before the world began. we know He identifies Himself personally and unique with God, the very God who sent Him, and that He is to be honored as God. i agree that Jesus is God. but clearly there's a hierarchy between Jesus and God- they are One and the same, yet distinct, and the Son is under the Father. so to say that Jesus wrote or inspired the scriptures is off.

scripture is God-breathed, and God inspired. scripurally, God has appeared as a Man to His people before Bethlehem, and it's understood that these incidents are people meeting with a pre-incarnate Savior, God appearing as a Man to Abraham, to Jacob / Israel, to Samson's parents, etc.

Jesus didn't inspire the scriptures. God did. the same God who revealed Himself in human flesh in and through Messiah.

 

[EtuMalku]

Why is it so difficult to understand that all 'scripture' is written by Man, and most of the Abrahamic scriptures being spewed about here were written for political reasons.

Your Jesus didn't write a word that we can read, your Abrahamic God wrote just as many pages.

Hundreds of years after Yeshua's death men wrote down stories to resurrect the Christ figure and to propel their politically charged beliefs into the public eye. Intertwining modern hearsay with ancient myths and Pagan spiritual beliefs. All the while demoting the Pagan Female archetype to a subordinate position effectively dissolving all connections with anything Pagan or Goddess oriented.

 

[Riverwolf]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like pain.

One person's pain is another person's pleasure.

 

[Riverwolf]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like pain.

Some people find pleasant what others find painful.

Besides, who ever said death is painful?

 

[ayani]

Etu Malku ~

no, friend.

it wasn't hundreds of years.

the Bible was canonized hundreds of years after Jesus' life and ministry. but the Gospel narratives we have about Him were penned within the decades after His time on earth, by men of His same generation, eye-witnesses to His ministry, or men with ready access to eye-witnesses.

fragments of the Gospel of John, corresponding exactly to copies dating from later centuries, considered by Biblical scholars to be the last Gospel penned have been found dating to around 120 AD. this shows that the content of these Gospels was readily available and in circulation very, very early.

God did not take up a pen and write the Bible. but He did inspire His servants to record what he had done in human history, and to convey His words to the surrounding peoples.

 

[Riverwolf]

If Jesus never rose from the grave (tomb), then we would all be rotting in the grave (hell) for eternity.

So if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, and his principles, and strive to do them, how will you overcome death and hell ???

What would be the point of overcoming that which is necessary for life?

Death is inevitable. Tartarus is most likely a myth.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why is it so difficult to understand that all 'scripture' is written by Man, and most of the Abrahamic scriptures being spewed about here were written for political reasons.

Your Jesus didn't write a word that we can read, your Abrahamic God wrote just as many pages.

Hundreds of years after Yeshua's death men wrote down stories to resurrect the Christ figure and to propel their politically charged beliefs into the public eye. Intertwining modern hearsay with ancient myths and Pagan spiritual beliefs. All the while demoting the Pagan Female archetype to a subordinate position effectively dissolving all connections with anything Pagan or Goddess oriented.

Have you actually READ the gospels? I have, and I can tell you they don't have a single political agenda in them. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

 

[EtuMalku]

Etu Malku ~

no, friend.

it wasn't hundreds of years.

the Bible was canonized hundreds of years after Jesus' life and ministry. but the Gospel narratives we have about Him were penned within the decades after His time on earth, by men of His same generation, eye-witnesses to His ministry, or men with ready access to eye-witnesses.

fragments of the Gospel of John, corresponding exactly to copies dating from later centuries, considered by Biblical scholars to be the last Gospel penned have been found dating to around 120 AD. this shows that the content of these Gospels was readily available and in circulation very, very early.

God did not take up a pen and write the Bible. but He did inspire His servants to record what he had done in human history, and to convey His words to the surrounding peoples.

Mark's Gospel is attributed to 70-80 AD, but that is heavily debated among scholars as well as John's 120 years later.

 

[Riverwolf]

Mark's Gospel is attributed to 70-80 AD, but that is heavily debated among scholars as well as John's 120 years later.

Which means we don't know for sure WHEN they were written, so you can't say conclusively that they were written centuries later.

 

[EtuMalku]

Have you actually READ the gospels? I have, and I can tell you they don't have a single political agenda in them. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

I study comparative religions, I have read many versions of these Gospels.

As for the politcal aspect, I am not the only one with this belief, let's look at Luke's Gospel for instance:

Luke is telling the story for a Greco-Roman audience. Luke is much more antagonistic toward Judaism. And so the gospel of Luke and its companion volume, Acts, are also reflecting the development of the Christian movement more away from the Jewish roots and in fact ...developing more toward the Roman political and social arena. This political self consciousness and ethnic self consciousness that's being reflected by Luke/Acts is beginning to say that we, the Christians, the ones who are telling this story, are no longer in quite the same way just Jews. And so there's a growing antipathy toward at least certain elements within the Jewish tradition and within Jewish society.

 

[EtuMalku]

Which means we don't know for sure WHEN they were written, so you can't say conclusively that they were written centuries later.

The majority of the Gospels are 200 250 tears later, and Mark most likely is too.

 

[Riverwolf]

I study comparative religions, I have read many versions of these Gospels.

As for the politcal aspect, I am not the only one with this belief, let's look at Luke's Gospel for instance:

Luke is telling the story for a Greco-Roman audience. Luke is much more antagonistic toward Judaism. And so the gospel of Luke and its companion volume, Acts, are also reflecting the development of the Christian movement more away from the Jewish roots and in fact ...developing more toward the Roman political and social arena. This political self consciousness and ethnic self consciousness that's being reflected by Luke/Acts is beginning to say that we, the Christians, the ones who are telling this story, are no longer in quite the same way just Jews. And so there's a growing antipathy toward at least certain elements within the Jewish tradition and within Jewish society.

Well, "Luke" trying to move away from Judaism would explain why Marcion liked his gospel best...

Thing is, we haven't looked at Luke's gospel at all, as you've not provided any corroborating verses. I haven't read Luke in a while, so please enlighten me with some.

 

[Riverwolf]

The majority of the Gospels are 200 250 tears later, and Mark most likely is too.

You mean they were written after 200 to 250 tears were cried?

Spelling jokes aside, how can you be so sure, when even non-believing scholars aren't? I'm sure you can provide evidence?

 

[EtuMalku]

Just the usual evidence that scholars use, so in essence, no I certainly am not sure, I am not much of a historian.

 

[FFH]

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

this passage says that all scripture is inspired by God, not by Jesus.

Jesus wasn't revealed as Messiah in history before His incarnation. it is God with whom the prophets speak, at whose behest they speak, and whose interactions with mankind they record. to say that Messiah Jesus wrote or inspired the scriptures isn't exactly right.

we know from the NT that Jesus had a pre-incarnate existence before the world began. we know He identifies Himself personally and unique with God, the very God who sent Him, and that He is to be honored as God. i agree that Jesus is God. but clearly there's a hierarchy between Jesus and God- they are One and the same, yet distinct, and the Son is under the Father. so to say that Jesus wrote or inspired the scriptures is off.

scripture is God-breathed, and God inspired. scripurally, God has appeared as a Man to His people before Bethlehem, and it's understood that these incidents are people meeting with a pre-incarnate Savior, God appearing as a Man to Abraham, to Jacob / Israel, to Samson's parents, etc.

Jesus didn't inspire the scriptures. God did. the same God who revealed Himself in human flesh in and through Messiah.

God the Father directs God the Son (Jesus Christ).

Jesus works under his authority.

Jesus Christ (God the Son) created this universe and is in charge of it under the direction of God the Father.

Jesus Christ is the God and author of the Old and New Testament, under the direction of God the Father.