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Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things...

FFH

Veteran Member
The majority of the Gospels are 200 250 tears later, and Mark most likely is too.
So obviously it was INSPIRED by someone, that person was Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus Christ wrote the four gospels, NOT man.

Jesus inspired MAN to write the gospels after his death and resurrection.

Jesus wrote the Old and New Testament, but over the years MAN has taken some key passages of scriptures out. Man purposely removed them, because it most likely didn't agree with his/her theologies.

Thus the need to RESTORE the Old and New Testament and RESTORE Jesus Christ's gospel.

That's where Joseph Smith comes onto the scene.
 
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Sententia

Well-Known Member
Wikipedia said:
An infinite regress in a series of propositions arises if the truth of proposition P1 requires the support of proposition P2, and for any proposition in the series Pn, the truth of Pn requires the support of the truth of Pn+1. There would never be adequate support for P1, because the infinite sequence needed to provide such support could not be completed.

:) :run:
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
So obviously it was INSPIRED by someone, that person was Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus Christ wrote the four gospels, NOT man.

Jesus inspired MAN to write the gospels after his death and resurrection.

Jesus wrote the Old and New Testament.

Incorrect. You fail religion 101. (Don't you study this stuff?)
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Some people find pleasant what others find painful.

Besides, who ever said death is painful?
Believe me, I've been through several living hells on earth, it's nothing you want to go through for any extended period of time. Fire throughout the body, I've felt it, it wasn't the result of any physical sickness, but of an attitude of rebellion against God that brought it on, in my case. I could not rest, it was a constant fire in the mind and body. It caused me to have such resolve to NEVER go there.

There is no rest in hell and nothing but pain, suffering and lonliness.

Why would ANYONE prefer that over paradise ???
 
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FFH

Veteran Member
Incorrect. You fail religion 101. (Don't you study this stuff?)
Whether it was 100 years or 200 years after the fact or whatever and written by whomever, there is NO WAY that so much detail could be obvserved and written down.

ESPECIALLY when scriptures speak of things that are going on WITHIN someone, like a demon possession or thoughts of the mind.

Think about it.

Forget about the books, look at what scriptures say.

Much of what scriptures say could NOT have been OBSERVED by man and written down.

For instance there was no one to write down the "6 day" creation of the earth.

Jesus wrote it all, we fool ourselves if we think otherwise.

Jesus inspired men to writed down what they wrote. Jesus is in charge, NOT man.
 
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FFH

Veteran Member
Is it possible to create a program that randomly pulls scripture off a website and pictures from another site featuring models and then puts them together on an internet discussion forum.

I thought bots were disabled.
Satan wants to take credit for what Jesus has done, by possessing and flaunting beautiful women for his glory and gain. Satan also wants to REMOVE JESUS as the AUTHOR of creation.

I'm putting Jesus back where he belongs, at the head of this world, which he has created, and I'm throwing satan back into hell, where he belongs with his demons for eternity.

I'm giving JESUS credit where credit is due, that being ALL THINGS.
 
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Sententia

Well-Known Member
Whether it was 100 years or 200 years or more after the fact or whatever and written by whomever, there is NO WAY that so much detail could be written down.

ESPECIALLY when scriptures speak of things that are going on WITHIN someone, like a demon possession or thoughts of the mind.

Think about it.

Forget about the books, look at what scriptures say.

Much of what scriptures say could NOT have been OBSERVED by man and written down.

For instance there was no one to write down the "7 day" creation of the earth.

Jesus wrote it all, we fool ourselves if we think otherwise.

??? Is this your actual argument or are you just playing the crazy card? This argument is devoid of logic and reason and sounds like a zealous indoctrinated argument preaching and contending with common sense.

How much do you know about the origins of the bible to begin with? For the amount of time you spend pointing out your point of view, I would say argue but I think that is overstepping, you could easily do some quality research.
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
A Troll doing what a Troll does back. When he can't debate back with logic and words spam with more pictures.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
??? Is this your actual argument or are you just playing the crazy card? This argument is devoid of logic and reason and sounds like a zealous indoctrinated argument preaching and contending with common sense.

How much do you know about the origins of the bible to begin with? For the amount of time you spend pointing out your point of view, I would say argue but I think that is overstepping, you could easily do some quality research.
Religion is a matter of faith in the unseen world.

Tell me, how do you debate faith ???

How is it possible for me to debate the UNSEEN ???

Anyone can change scripture in secret, so how can I PROVE scripture has been CHANGED, when there was NO ONE around to witness it but God himself ???
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Religion is a matter of faith in the unseen world.

Tell me, how do you debate faith ???

How is it possible for me to debate the UNSEEN ???

There are quite a few ways but when someone admits that their argument is only based on faith and what they personally believe based on their upbringing and indoctrination and not on facts, reason or science then what is it you wish to debate?

You are entitled to your opinion but you argue from a base of conflict. There is a large asynchronous void of reason and you seek to build that reason and to justify your faith beliefs with science, facts and pics of women you find beautiful and thus consider to be god's creation. (While skirting the issue of why it is you find these women beautiful to begin with)

Your personal beliefs and opinions are yours mate but your faith doesn't prove Jesus even existed as a human let alone prove he created the heavens and the earth. (A ridiculous statement to begin with putting the third rock of a small yellow sun as one thing god created on the same level as what was then ignorantly referred to as the heavens. (Which is of course made up of trillions of other suns and rocks))

Its a subject amongst believers of great conceit that this planet and their purpose and their lives has so much more meaning and so much more purpose then any other secular purpose here.

Your faith is yours. But to convince others that your faith is truth misrepresents your stance and is immoral. I have equated these types of arguments in the past to lying. I see no difference here except your argument that even though its not what is proven or known its what you believe and hence the truth which is what? A rationalization for lying.

Whats that old Mormon commercial? You tell one lie it leads to another then you tell two lies to cover each other then you tell three lies oh brother....

*sigh* I'm afraid the hypocrisy of the commercial may be lost on you unfortunately.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Satan is a personification of the Judaic word al-satan (who borrowed it from the Persians' Shaiten) meaning adversary. The word is used more as a descriptive noun or pronoun. A fallen tree preventing a husband from getting to his injured wife would be considered a tree of shaiten, more or less.

Shaiten did not become Satan until much later where Jewish sects / tribes such as the Essenes began referring to anyone not an Essene as a Shaiten. Still further the Roman Christian church decided it was time to personify shaiten into Satan and have Him become the scapegoat for all evil in the Christian world.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
How can I debate the fact that we need a SAVIOR to overcome death and hell ???

How can I debate the fact that Jesus Christ created this universe and EVERYTHING in it ???

I can only post inspired Biblical and LDS (Mormon) scriptures that state that VERY fact.

The Book of Moses is the first 13 chapters of Genesis RESTORED, since MAN messed it up and took out KEY passages of scripture.

Joseph Smith restored these LOST passages of scripture and they are recorded as the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price as LDS STANDARD scripture.

Moses 6: 52, 57 (Genesis restored by Joseph Smith)
52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you. • • •

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Moses 7: 50 (Genesis restored by Joseph Smith)
And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

Moses 8: 24 (Genesis restored by Joseph Smith)
Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not.

Man has REMOVED these passages of scripture from Genesis, at what point in time that happened ONLY Jesus Christ knows.
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Is Joe going to restore the Nag Hammadi gospels also that show the Christian religion to be another off shoot of Judaism and Pagan Goddess beliefs?
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
While we're cutting & pasting scripture I thought I might throw this up;

According to Jesus’ admissions, as well as the Bible’s prophecies, Jesus of Nazareth could not have been the Messiah. This of course, would invalidate Christianity as we know it. The compilation presented here shall be split in three sections. The first shall be the biblical prophecies that were made in order to identify the messiah, which Jesus does not fulfill. The second shall be the prophecies that Christians use to say that Jesus was the Messiah, yet they clearly fail. The third set shall be the prophecies and statements Jesus made yet they are false and have never came true.
Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:
1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.
2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.
3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

Prophecies Christians Use to Verify Jesus as the Messiah, Yet Clearly Fail:
4) The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
5) Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.
6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.
7) "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").
8) "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb’s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).
B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.
Statements Jesus Made Which Are False:
9) Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ "works". Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.
10) In John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it." In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.
11) Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthian 15:14-17). Yet Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 that he would be buried three days and three nights as Jonah was in the whale three days and three nights. Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning is only one and a half days, so he could not have been the messiah by his own and Paul’s admission.
12) Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 ("The **** shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the **** crowed after the first denial, not the third.
13) In Mark 10:19 Jesus said: "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." Jesus needs to re-read the Ten Commandments. There is no Old Testament commandment against defrauding. The only relevant statement about defrauding is in Leviticus 19:13 , which says : "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor." This is an OT law, but is not listed with the Ten Commandments. Surely, if Jesus was god incarnate he would know the commandments.
14) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). If Jesus is in heaven, how can he be down on earth speaking? Moreover, according to 2 Kings 2:11 ("and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven") Jesus was not the only person to ascend into heaven, nor was he the first. Elijah preceded him and apparently Enoch did also ("And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him"--Genesis 5:24).
15) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.
1 6) Jesus says : "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy" (Matthew 5:43). This statement does not exist in the OT either. In fact, Proverbs 24:17 says, "Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth…"
17) Jesus is reported to say: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it" (Luke 16:16). Certainly every man is not pressing to enter the kingdom of God. The very fact that I am an atheist (one third of the world’s population does not believe in a god) proves this verse to be false.
18) "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?" (Matthew 12:5) Nowhere does the OT state that the priests in the temple profaned the Sabbath and were considered blameless.
19) "Yea; have ye never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise'" (Matthew 21:16). Jesus is quoting Psalm 8:2, which says, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies…". "Perfect praise" has little to do with "ordaining strength because of thine enemies." Another misquotation!
20) "But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him" (Mark 9:13). There are no prophecies in the OT of things that were to happen to Elijah.

There are many more, but I'll stop here
 

FFH

Veteran Member
There are quite a few ways but when someone admits that their argument is only based on faith and what they personally believe based on their upbringing and indoctrination and not on facts, reason or science then what is it you wish to debate?

You are entitled to your opinion but you argue from a base of conflict. There is a large asynchronous void of reason and you seek to build that reason and to justify your faith beliefs with science, facts and pics of women you find beautiful and thus consider to be god's creation. (While skirting the issue of why it is you find these women beautiful to begin with)

Your personal beliefs and opinions are yours mate but your faith doesn't prove Jesus even existed as a human let alone prove he created the heavens and the earth. (A ridiculous statement to begin with putting the third rock of a small yellow sun as one thing god created on the same level as what was then ignorantly referred to as the heavens. (Which is of course made up of trillions of other suns and rocks))

Its a subject amongst believers of great conceit that this planet and their purpose and their lives has so much more meaning and so much more purpose then any other secular purpose here.

Your faith is yours. But to convince others that your faith is truth misrepresents your stance and is immoral. I have equated these types of arguments in the past to lying. I see no difference here except your argument that even though its not what is proven or known its what you believe and hence the truth which is what? A rationalization for lying.

Whats that old Mormon commercial? You tell one lie it leads to another then you tell two lies to cover each other then you tell three lies oh brother....

*sigh* I'm afraid the hypocrisy of the commercial may be lost on you unfortunately.
One simple answer.

Beauty CANNOT come from CHAOS !!!

It has to be created by an INTELLIGENT designer, in our case (universe), that INTELLIGENT designer, is Jesus Christ.
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Some one from the LDS should come here before this person single handedly denounces their entire religion . . . LOL!
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
How can I debate the fact that we need a SAVIOR to overcome death and hell ???

How can I debate the fact that Jesus Christ created this universe and EVERYTHING in it ???

I can only post inspired Biblical and LDS (Mormon) scriptures that state that VERY fact.

The Book of Moses is the first 13 chapters of Genesis RESTORED, since MAN messed it up and took out KEY passages of scripture.

Joseph Smith restored these LOST passages of scripture and they are recorded as the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price as LDS STANDARD scripture.

Moses 6: 52, 57 (Genesis restored by Joseph Smith)
52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you. • • •

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Moses 7: 50 (Genesis restored by Joseph Smith)
And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

Moses 8: 24 (Genesis restored by Joseph Smith)
Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not.

Man has REMOVED these passages of scripture from Genesis.

Your assumption is inspired by god which presupposes god and the ability of prophesy. Its grounded in supernatural belief and is likely caused by indoctrination.

What you are accepting as fact is not fact but you are attempting to rationalize it as such.

Personally I believe the holy ghost to be a punk. A ridiculous fabrication and I utterly deny it with every fabric of my being. On my death bed I will continue to deny the holy ghost. (And ghosts in general... Unholy, holy, spiritual or supernatural in anyway)

I say that only to point out my belief in the natural world. What is proven and what is. Also for shock value as denying the holy ghost is considered amongst god folk as unforgivable by god himself.

The simplest explanation for Joe Smith is that he was a fraud. A clever fraud for his time but whose book has had to be rewritten and edited how many times to persist the lie?

What proof do we have of Gold plates? Do we have them? Reformed Egyptian? Honestly I told my son the story of Joseph Smith when he was 10 and his first question was where are the gold plates. So where are they? Thats the easy 10 year old debunking argument but any detailed analysis would go deeper than that.

Not to pick on mormons. I mean the whole GLBT thing annoys me but often times mormons will argue numbers. There are more atheists in the US of A then there are Mormons WORLDWIDE. Its a stupid argument and I have yet to meet someone argue from reason. Ancient races and massive wars with no historical or archeological evidence? ( Smithsonian Statement on the Book of Mormon )

You are conflicted in your beliefs. You want to justify them not to me or to anyone else but to yourself and you are drawn to these forums like a moth to the flame.

I understand and respect your beliefs. But I do not appreciate the attempt to pass judgement on others who don't share them or to attribute your personal beliefs as facts everyone else is too stupid or ignorant to grasp.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Some one from the LDS should come here before this person single handedly denounces their entire religion . . . LOL!
LDS doctrine CLEARLY states that JESUS CHRIST is the creator of this UNIVERSE.

Jesus acts on behalf of God the Father, in directing this universe.
 
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Sententia

Well-Known Member
One simple answer.

BEAUTY CANNOT COME FROM CHAOS !!!

It has to be created by an INTELLIGENT designer, in our case (universe), that INTELLIGENT designer, is Jesus Chirst.

You do realize of course that there are a significant number of people who perceive farm animals to be the most beautiful thing on our planet and even take them as wives. Other cultures would find girls you find beautiful to be horrid.

You believe these women to be beautiful and many may share your beliefs but your beliefs do not make reality for anyone except yourself and at some point you need to realize others believe completely different things and so could you given a different set of upbringing and indoctrination.

The best thing a school can do it to teach a student HOW to think. You seem to come from a school of thought that its best for your parents, church, elders and school to teach you WHAT to think. (And then you spend the rest of your life trying to justify that what without ever knowing how)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Believe me, I've been through several living hells on earth, it's nothing you want to go through for any extended period of time. Fire throughout the body, I've felt it, it wasn't the result of any physical sickness, but of an attitude of rebellion against God that brought it on, in my case. I could not rest, it was a constant fire in the mind and body. It caused me to have such resolve to NEVER go there.

There is no rest in hell and nothing but pain, suffering and lonliness.

Why would ANYONE prefer that over paradise ???

Because I cannot think of a greater hell than ANY eternal life. For me, an eternity in Paradise would be just as great a hell as an eternity in Inferno.

So I'd rather live now, in accordance to God and die eternally, than in accordance with God and live eternally.
 
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