Being "transgender" is a form of gender stereotyping.

[1137]

Great input guys and gals, I'm glad we finally had this talk. However, I want to be a dick for a second.

I have, and I'm not lying, never felt like a human being. I know I am biologically and definitionally, but my mind screams that I am simply different. Not special, just alien. I don't make sense, I never fit in with any groups of people, the way I process information is strange, etc. If I wanted to be considered an alien, the amount of psychotherapy I'd go through is insane, because I simply not an alien no matter how I feel, because emotions don't change fact. How is a man honestly thinking they're a woman any different?

Further, I get one "really believes it" and is incapable of not. I'm a psychologist myself, trust me I get it. But I also see people who really believe there are other people in their head, that someone lives in their walls, that their neighbor is a monster, that all their friends hate them, the list of untrue beliefs is infinite. As far as I can tell, transgenderism is the only one we're supposed to ignore / accept.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Asperger's Syndrome is sometimes called the "wrong world syndrome" because aspies perceive the world very differently than what neurotically do. Even before being diagnosed, I had strong suspicions that I was different on a very fundamental level. It doesn't mean I'm not human, although I know I think differently than most other humans, it just means I am different.
As for your examples of things such as voices in the head, I don't see how they are comparable. People living in your head is clearly false, however, not only are their examples of transsexuals (or, more accurately, transgender given the broad variance that is found throughout human history, although many have indeed been transsexuals), we can examine the brain of someone who is transsexual and see that their brain structurally looks more like the brain of the sex they identify as rather than the sex they were born as. As far as I know this has to be done post-mortem, but it is nevertheless concrete evidence that that it isn't some sort of delusion or wishy-washy thinking.
There is also the data that supports the idea transsexuals show improvement in their psychological wellbeing when they start living as their identified gender.
And, as for the labels, just because you apply to yourself doesn't mean you have to live up to it. I embrace the title of honor student, but I don't do the groups, the clubs, fraternity/sorority, or any of the other stuff that is typically associated with the good students. I didn't even go to the graduation commencement because I didn't want to.
Transitioning, and applying the related labels, such as woman, does not mean I have to start listening to N'Sync and Brittney Spears. It doesn't mean I have to transition like others do. It doesn't mean I have to start spending hours in front of a mirror to be impeccably groomed.

 

[1137]

I don't think that just because something feels good for some people we can throw out the line between reality and not. We also can't make the leap from "well, their brain has some masculine traits" to "they are a man and a woman. People with mental disorders, such as the ones mentioned, also have brain differences from the statistical mean, but you don't want to treat their delusion as true. Yes, someone with multiple personality disorder may have a brain dysfunction that makes them as such, but we shouldn't just leave them to rot with the voices in their head. When we make the exception that one group can believe what they want because it feels good and act how they want because they have an excuse, everything falls apart. Personally I hate the angsty depresses side of me, and I'm glad those around me don't simply tell me " yup, you're right, nobody loves you".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't think that just because something feels good for some people we can throw out the line between reality and not. We also can't make the leap from "well, their brain has some masculine traits" to "they are a man and a woman. People with mental disorders, such as the ones mentioned, also have brain differences from the statistical mean, but you don't want to treat their delusion as true. Yes, someone with multiple personality disorder may have a brain dysfunction that makes them as such, but we shouldn't just leave them to rot with the voices in their head. When we make the exception that one group can believe what they want because it feels good and act how they want because they have an excuse, everything falls apart. Personally I hate the angsty depresses side of me, and I'm glad those around me don't simply tell me " yup, you're right, nobody loves you".

The things you keep bringing up are entirely different from gender dysphoria. But, the things you mention as well as gender dysphoria are improved with treatment. Treatment for gender dysphoria revolves around a physical transition to the other sex. As for the brain, it's not just traits but structural shapes. My brain was feminized in utero. This has made it very discomforting and distressful to live as a male. Depression and anxiety have plagued me my entire life. But each step I take in transition has brought improvements.
If I were told today that I absolutely cannot transition to female or live as female, I'd most likely just complete, and succeed, a suicide rather than contemplate and begin to attempt it.
The things you mention, as well as gender dysphoria, deteriorate quality of life when left untreated. Those with schizophrenia receive therapy and medication. Multiple personalities are merged into one. Those with gender dysphoria transition to the other sex. It's not saying "listen to the voices and do what they say," it's undergoing a medically supervised treatment that requires therapists, lab tests, doctors,

 

[1137]

I guess it's an agreement to disagree. I neither agree with encouraging famtasitcal delution nor embracing and exasperating gender stereotypes. Both are a step back.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I guess it's an agreement to disagree. I neither agree with encouraging famtasitcal delution nor embracing and exasperating gender stereotypes. Both are a step back.

When have I stated I am embracing stereotypes? I am embracing myself. It's making me much better off.
You also seem to have not fully considered the implications of the brain itself having a gender, and that transsexuals do not have the brain of their birth sex.
And, since you say your are a psychologist, which is better? To allow someone to suffer in agony when a treatment to ameliorate the suffering is available, or provide treatment that has been shown to improve quality of life?

 

[Revoltingest]

Asperger's Syndrome is sometimes called the "wrong world syndrome" because aspies perceive the world very differently than what neurotically do. Even before being diagnosed, I had strong suspicions that I was different on a very fundamental level. It doesn't mean I'm not human, although I know I think differently than most other humans, it just means I am different.
As for your examples of things such as voices in the head, I don't see how they are comparable. People living in your head is clearly false, however, not only are their examples of transsexuals (or, more accurately, transgender given the broad variance that is found throughout human history, although many have indeed been transsexuals), we can examine the brain of someone who is transsexual and see that their brain structurally looks more like the brain of the sex they identify as rather than the sex they were born as. As far as I know this has to be done post-mortem, but it is nevertheless concrete evidence that that it isn't some sort of delusion or wishy-washy thinking.
There is also the data that supports the idea transsexuals show improvement in their psychological wellbeing when they start living as their identified gender.
And, as for the labels, just because you apply to yourself doesn't mean you have to live up to it. I embrace the title of honor student, but I don't do the groups, the clubs, fraternity/sorority, or any of the other stuff that is typically associated with the good students. I didn't even go to the graduation commencement because I didn't want to.
Transitioning, and applying the related labels, such as woman, does not mean I have to start listening to N'Sync and Brittney Spears. It doesn't mean I have to transition like others do. It doesn't mean I have to start spending hours in front of a mirror to be impeccably groomed.

It's much like being an engineer, which I've been diagnosed as.
Aspies seem utterly normal to me.
It's the "normal" people who are inscrutable.

On people living in one's head.....it sure seems real to some.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I guess it's an agreement to disagree. I neither agree with encouraging famtasitcal delution nor embracing and exasperating gender stereotypes. Both are a step back.

Show how it's a delusion and cite scientific findings where appropriate. Those requesting medical transition are to be screened for serious psychiatric problems to make sure that their sex identity isn't stemming from a psychotic or dissociative disorder.

And like I said before, it has nothing to do with gender stereotypes. The ones who go out of their way to present stereotypical notions of femininity (usually ultra-submissive, '50s housewife crap) are usually male transvestites (in other words, it's a sexual fetish), and they tend to be middle aged white men. I've known a few of them, along with a rather disturbing tranny chaser, from a trans support group I used to go to but stopped attending because those people weren't exactly good to be around for the most part. You see those types online a lot, too. There's ways to tell them apart from actual transsexual women. To be honest, I tend to find so-called "late transitioners" to be suspect in general. They're usually white males who have lived for decades as men, usually have a wife and children, are middle class to upper class, have stereotypically "male" careers, tend to have a history of cross dressing in secret and then they all of a sudden decide that they want to live as women, which causes chaos in their personal lives. They don't tend to "pass" very well since they transition so late and testosterone has taken its toll on their looks. But if they have a lot of money (and they tend to), they can get facial feminization surgery to hide all that.

As for trans men, our issues and experiences are very different. Trans men and trans women are two different communities and we don't really have much in common with each other outside of both of us having sex dysphoria.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

........... I'm sure that it is tough for many transgenders and intersexuals, but it's amazing when the brave and confident ones introduce themselves to the world.

Just a tip, but "transgenders" and "intersexuals" aren't the correct way to describe a person. It's transgender person or intersex person.

Plus, I don't really see it as a matter of being brave or confident. It's a horrible situation to be in and I wish I didn't have transsexualism. I hate having to mention it (or feeling like I have to mention it) and wish I could just be a normal male. It would be nice to never have to mention it or having it be an issue.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To be honest, I tend to find so-called "late transitioners" to be suspect in general.

There is a late transitioner on this forum. It's still hard for us today, but it was even harder back then.

They don't tend to "pass" very well since they transition so late and testosterone has taken its toll on their looks.

MtFs, in general, tend to not pass well once the body has been through puberty.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There is a late transitioner on this forum. It's still hard for us today, but it was even harder back then.

Yeah, I've seen that poster before. So? I'm talking about a group of people in general and things I've noticed. Transsexualism's been a known medical condition for many decades. If they really wanted to transition and if their dysphoria was that bad, they could've found a way to do it. I mean, you have trans women who put themselves through hell doing sex work, often getting infected with HIV/AIDS, getting assaulted and murdered, to pay for their transition but these people make great money year after year, but their circumstances are so difficult that they can't transition until they're around retirement age? I don't buy it.

Don't worry, there's problematic issues with some trans men, too.

MtFs, in general, tend to not pass well once the body has been through puberty.

Depends. Some do and some don't. Testosterone has accumulative effects so a 25 year old trans woman will be better able to pass than a 50 year old, in general. With trans women, the sooner you start hormone therapy, the better the results will be.

 

[1137]

When have I stated I am embracing stereotypes? I am embracing myself. It's making me much better off.
You also seem to have not fully considered the implications of the brain itself having a gender, and that transsexuals do not have the brain of their birth sex.
And, since you say your are a psychologist, which is better? To allow someone to suffer in agony when a treatment to ameliorate the suffering is available, or provide treatment that has been shown to improve quality of life?

The path to healing would be comfort in one's own body, not a division between body and mind.

 

[1137]

Show how it's a delusion and cite scientific findings where appropriate. Those requesting medical transition are to be screened for serious psychiatric problems to make sure that their sex identity isn't stemming from a psychotic or dissociative disorder.

What do you mean "how's it a delusion"? It's "an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder."

 

[1137]

When one hates themselves you don't encourage that. That's all I think there is to say.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What do you mean "how's it a delusion"? It's "an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder."

Except that medical science and psychiatry has already shown that the problem isn't the mental health of the transsexual and there's nothing that can be done to alleviate their sex dysphoria besides medical transition. You can't be "talked" out of it. Just like you can't "pray the gay away".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When one hates themselves you don't encourage that. That's all I think there is to say.

They don't encourage you to hate yourself. They try to help make you whole. I hate my body somewhat less since starting testosterone therapy. I'm happier with the person I see the mirror now. The dysphoria isn't completely gone because I need chest and genital surgery, too. I'll probably always have a degree of dysphoria because I'll most likely never have an XX male body, but the point is to reduce the dysphoria until you're mostly happy with yourself and can live with it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The path to healing would be comfort in one's own body, not a division between body and mind.

From as far back as I can remember there has always been this division. I am taking steps to end that division and bring my body into alignment with my brain.

When one hates themselves you don't encourage that. That's all I think there is to say.

I have done a lot of that over the years. But the first time I put on makeup and women's clothing, seeing a woman looking back in the mirror, there wasn't nearly as much hatred and I could actually stand to look at myself.
If I were forced to continue to live as a male, rather than go on living I'd rather throw myself in front of an oncoming semi or train. I have hated myself, I have been depressed, and being refereed to as a male has a certain sting to it. That is just not who I am.
This is in no way like something like bipolar disorder, in which "being yourself" can likely pose a great risk to the self and others.
But medical treatments fix both issues. It's as simply as that. Gender dysphoria requires extensive therapy because, in order to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, which is needed to begin with a physical transition, a number of other disorders and conditions have to be ruled out. Once those other things have been ruled out, we can begin treatment, and begin to stop hating ourselves.

 

[psychoslice]

No, I'm not teasing. I do not do well with acronyms, and I do not know what MMM means.

So sorry, mmm, is just like going, "mmmm I like that", if you know what I mean ?.

 

[psychoslice]

This. THIS!

This ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So sorry, mmm, is just like going, "mmmm I like that", if you know what I mean ?.

Yes, now I do. Having them in capital letters is what confused me.