Believers and Disbelievers

[muhammad_isa]

Claims require justification which you have failed to supply.

Can't you read?
I'm not the one to supply it .. if it doesn't come from within, end of!

 

[Rajina]

The challenge is meaningless because no self-respecting Muslim would EVER admit that anything put forward was superior to the Qur'an.

It doesn't require someone to be a Muslim to check whether something put forward is similar to Qur'an or not. Anyone well versed in Arabic literature can easily check this.

 

[Rajina]

They are both empty, meaningless, challenges that serve no purpose other than to make the challenger feel better about their beliefs.
Well, that is not exactly true.
I mean, they do also reveal the bias, prejudice, irrationality, and desperation of the challenger.

You could have called it an empty and meaningless challenge if it was something which no one cared to break. This challenge was initially posed to the 7th century Arabs, who had a big need to break this challenge because the call of Qur'an to monotheism, to the abolition of idolatry, and to the equality of slaves and their masters, was a threat to the business and the socio-economic position of the people of Mecca. They were desperately trying to destroy Islam.

 

[Rajina]

The challenge is just such a fallacy as it makes a claim that the text is from Allah and to show it is not other people must demonstrate it isn't. This is just a shifting burden of proof.



Which is just such a fallacy as the divinity of it has not be shown to be true but merely claimed.



Nonsense. The Quran makes claims thus is subject to the burden of proof.



Ad populum fallacy



Baseless assertion.



Tinfoil hat speculation and repeating the fallacy again.

You still dont understand what I am saying.

Suppose that you have some Kashmiri apple which you brought from Kashmir. And you are calling the people in your locality and saying 'I have brought some kashmiri apple, you can take from it if you need ”. People started coming and you started supplying it to them for free And people started eating it and they didnt have any doubt about whether it was kashmiri or not. And now comes a group of apple sellers who were fed up with you because their business started getting dim, and they started spreading that you are
lying and its local apple that you were giving to people and not kashmiri apple. And you are refuting them by saying“If this is local apple, then can you bring a local apple or atleast a small slice of it which looks and tastes just like this”.

Think about such a situation. On whose side is the burden of proof? On your side or on the side of apple sellers?

 

[YmirGF]

It doesn't require someone to be a Muslim to check whether something put forward is similar to Qur'an or not. Anyone well versed in Arabic literature can easily check this.

Rubbish. Are you seriously suggesting that Muslims would eagerly accept the opinion of a non-Muslim Arabic scholar? Seriously?
Besides the inherent hilarity of your suggestion there is the distinct problem that anyone who did manage to meet the challenge by exceeding the dreary dialogue of the Qur'an would likely face considerable backlash from the Muslim community which could have an adverse affect on their longevity.

 

[Rajina]

Rubbish. Are you seriously suggesting that Muslims would eagerly accept the opinion of a non-Muslim Arabic scholar? Seriously?
Besides the inherent hilarity of your suggestion there is the distinct problem that anyone who did manage to meet the challenge by exceeding the dreary dialogue of the Qur'an would likely face considerable backlash from the Muslim community which could have an adverse affect on their longevity.

It has been 1400 years since the Qur'an was revealed. From then until now, there had been very rich people who were desperately trying to stop people from accepting Islam. If they were able to produce any imitation of Qur'an, do you think that they will keep it secret because the Muslims are not accepting it? The medias are in their pockets. You will not understand this as long as you blindly believe those lies and hatred that they spread against Islam through the media.

 

[YmirGF]

It has been 1400 years since the Qur'an was revealed. From then until now, there had been very rich people who were desperately trying to stop people from accepting Islam. If they were able to produce any imitation of Qur'an, do you think that they will keep it secret because the Muslims are not accepting it? The medias are in their pockets. You will not understand this as long as you blindly believe those lies and hatred that they spread against Islam through the media.

Are you on drugs?

 

[Rajina]

Are you on drugs?

Not at all.. Its haram for me

 

[LuisDantas]

It has been 1400 years since the Qur'an was revealed. From then until now, there had been very rich people who were desperately trying to stop people from accepting Islam. If they were able to produce any imitation of Qur'an, do you think that they will keep it secret because the Muslims are not accepting it? The medias are in their pockets. You will not understand this as long as you blindly believe those lies and hatred that they spread against Islam through the media.

What...?

 

[YmirGF]

Not at all.. Its haram for me

So what does your response have to do with what I wrote? I don't need the media to tell me about Islam. I simply read about Islam from authentic Muslim sources. It's the ranting and raving of fanatical Muslims that is the problem, not the media.

 

[Shad]

You still dont understand what I am saying.

No I understand. You just do not know how fallacious your argument is.

Suppose that you have some Kashmiri apple which you brought from Kashmir. And you are calling the people in your locality and saying 'I have brought some kashmiri apple, you can take from it if you need ”. People started coming and you started supplying it to them for free And people started eating it and they didnt have any doubt about whether it was kashmiri or not. And now comes a group of apple sellers who were fed up with you because their business started getting dim, and they started spreading that you are lying and its local apple that you were giving to people and not kashmiri apple. And you are refuting them by saying“If this is local apple, then can you bring a local apple or atleast a small slice of it which looks and tastes just like this”.

Your example failed as an apple exists within reality without humans at all. I can also bring the very type of apple to show my claim is true. This is just another example of your fallacious reasoning. The apple exists, it has evidence of existing and anyone can find this evidence. The same is not true of your God claims

Think about such a situation. On whose side is the burden of proof? On your side or on the side of apple sellers?

I do not bother with fallacious thinking. The burden of proof is still on the side making the claim. Just because people are gullible enough to accept a claim without evidence does not mean I am obligated to be as gullible as they are.

Your reasoning is backwards. A claim should be accepted after sufficient evidence has been provided and not before. You accept the claim then find evidence to justify it which is just defending a presupposition, again, using flawed reasoning.

 

[Shad]

Can't you read?
I'm not the one to supply it .. if it doesn't come from within, end of!

You defended the fallacious argument with fallacious reasoning hence have not supplied justification for the claim nor the defense of said claim.

 

[YmirGF]

It has been 1400 years since the Qur'an was revealed. From then until now, there had been very rich people who were desperately trying to stop people from accepting Islam. If they were able to produce any imitation of Qur'an, do you think that they will keep it secret because the Muslims are not accepting it? The medias are in their pockets. You will not understand this as long as you blindly believe those lies and hatred that they spread against Islam through the media.

I don't buy into this argument in the slightest. I live in western Canada and here the media practically trips over itself in an effort to absolve Islam/Muslims of any blame or wrongdoing. Our political leaders endlessly drone on and on and on and on about how Islam is a peaceful religion and that gets a lot of air play. Rarely have I seen, in recent memory, anything even remotely slandering Islam and/or Muslims as a whole.

That said, I believe, based on my own research of AUTHENTIC Islamic sites and texts that the real problem facing Islam is its promotion of fanaticism. Even this backwater fount of dialogue on the Internet is home to many who can safely be called fanatical Muslims. It's Islam, as they themselves so clearly express, that is anathema to the critical thinking skills of those with even moderate education levels. The Islamic narrative does little to smooth over misunderstandings and in many cases the dithering explanations simply makes things sound even worse. Perhaps if Muslims payed more attention to critical thinking and less attention to conspiracy theories about a Jewish controlled media boogeyman, they might just eventually arrive in the 21st century.

 

[McBell]

You could have called it an empty and meaningless challenge if it was something which no one cared to break. This challenge was initially posed to the 7th century Arabs, who had a big need to break this challenge because the call of Qur'an to monotheism, to the abolition of idolatry, and to the equality of slaves and their masters, was a threat to the business and the socio-economic position of the people of Mecca. They were desperately trying to destroy Islam.

I did not say that the empty meaningless challenge does not work.
Merely pointing out it is an empty meaningless challenge.

 

[McBell]

You still dont understand what I am saying.

Suppose that you have some Kashmiri apple which you brought from Kashmir. And you are calling the people in your locality and saying 'I have brought some kashmiri apple, you can take from it if you need ”. People started coming and you started supplying it to them for free And people started eating it and they didnt have any doubt about whether it was kashmiri or not. And now comes a group of apple sellers who were fed up with you because their business started getting dim, and they started spreading that you are
lying and its local apple that you were giving to people and not kashmiri apple. And you are refuting them by saying“If this is local apple, then can you bring a local apple or atleast a small slice of it which looks and tastes just like this”.

Think about such a situation. On whose side is the burden of proof? On your side or on the side of apple sellers?

ALL side making a claim have the burden of proof.
The one claiming the apple is Kashmiri has the burden of proof that it is in fact a kashmiri apple.
The ones claiming it is not a Kashmiri apple also have the burden of proof.

Unfortunately for the one claiming it is a Kashmiri apple, the failure of proving it is NOT a Kashmiri apple is NOT proof that it is a Kashmiri apple.

 

[McBell]

It has been 1400 years since the Qur'an was revealed. From then until now, there had been very rich people who were desperately trying to stop people from accepting Islam. If they were able to produce any imitation of Qur'an, do you think that they will keep it secret because the Muslims are not accepting it? The medias are in their pockets. You will not understand this as long as you blindly believe those lies and hatred that they spread against Islam through the media.

Thus the choir is protected by the choir.
the only thing you have shown is how dedicated to the choir you are.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I changed my vote from "I do believe that God exists" to "I don't believe that God exists", since I'm really a functional atheist at this point. I don't pray, do devotions or anything.