I think God expects us to investigate, otherwise, we would not be so curious and we could not think for ourselves. So, yes, of course He will or would if it were wrong.
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Believers: Does God forgive investigation and doubt?
- Thread starter TJ73
- Start date
I think God expects us to investigate, otherwise, we would not be so curious and we could not think for ourselves. So, yes, of course He will or would if it were wrong.
I appreciate what you are saying and I really feel your sympathy. And I thank you for it, Sprinkles. I truly and honestly have a greater issue with the way people interpret the Quran than I do with the scripture itself. i love the book and recognize the wisdom, but I don't see it the same way other do. Also, I can not stand being told to listen to someone else tell me how it is SUPPOSSED to be understood. if I were to take some of the meanings that other people place on it I would want to run.
And as usual dmg, you know what to say. That is how I was coping for a while. I really needed to be reminded of that. That is my natural feeling about God. And I can live in peace with myself like that. I think at times I just let myself get bogged down by dogma and people. I have so much love and compassion in me and when I feel at peace and like it is OK to be me, it flows so naturally, but when i feel like I have a lot to live up to and that I will mis-represent others of my faith, or I fear the judgment of other believers I get severely, I mean severely depressed.
I start to think, I can not call myself the names of these religions( Christian/Muslim...) because the people see things way to different than I do,even though we espouse the same God and writings.
And as usual dmg, you know what to say. That is how I was coping for a while. I really needed to be reminded of that. That is my natural feeling about God. And I can live in peace with myself like that. I think at times I just let myself get bogged down by dogma and people. I have so much love and compassion in me and when I feel at peace and like it is OK to be me, it flows so naturally, but when i feel like I have a lot to live up to and that I will mis-represent others of my faith, or I fear the judgment of other believers I get severely, I mean severely depressed.
I start to think, I can not call myself the names of these religions( Christian/Muslim...) because the people see things way to different than I do,even though we espouse the same God and writings.
I was so scared to post this thread but i am so glad I did. I am gaining a lot of great insight from you all and you've all been really kind, helpful and respectful,BTW. But i am also coming to understand myself a little better. i have always known that I am an ALL OR NOTHING person. I need to lighten up on me a bit. I get myself all worked up because i don't do everything perfectly( not even remotely close, let me be honest) and than I get headed for a mental breakdown. What i can do and what comes easy is being good to the people and animals around me. I can do that for now until i can do more.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
It really doesn't matter what other people think. It only matters what you think. You know that God knows your heart.
When you are good with yourself, and good with God, you don't have to be afraid of anything. You can rest assured that you are in the hands of God and that nothing can turn back his arm.
And then my favorite scripture of all time. I was lead to it by the Spirit and it answered a lot of questions that I had been having. It was such a powerful realization that I had nothing to fear:
Well, I'm obviously not a theist, but you said anyone can respond, so the floodgates are open. :fork:
Generally, I feel that it should be an immediate red flag if a religion promotes belief above general virtue. Or if it puts belief or faith very high at all. It is as though they are selling something, and belief itself needs to be promoted because real substance is lacking.
Some world religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism are not as clingy. The same can be said for pagans and new agers. Although there may be subsets that do, they generally don't go around telling people they have to believe a certain creed, or a certain doctrine, and instead just provide information that they think is worthwhile for proposed spiritual improvement. Vast subsets of Christianity and Islam, on the other hand, tend to be more clingy and extremist in their approach, thinking everyone has to believe what they do and be part of their group or be damned.
Basically, I find the very idea that investigation and doubt need forgiveness to be very reversed and flawed. They are praiseworthy things.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Amen. As Jesus said, the whole have no need of a physician. Also "Woman, where are thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?" "No man lord." "Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more."
That would be cool but i bet i will sin some more. Not proud, just honest.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
True. So will I. So should we give up? Is God asking something of us that is impossible? Are we doomed to live a live of shame and guilt?
ImmortalPhoenix
Member
Thread response:
Why would he not?
Why would he not?
You're right. Good point. Why do I not run ito more people that think like this in the real world?
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Well I don't think like this. It was more of a question to make us think.
I have no illusions about my woeful imperfections. I know I am many fries short of a happy meal. I know that I am filled with weakness. But I don't let it bother me (most of the time...) I know that I am mortal, human. But guess what, so does God. He knows who we are, knows what we are. Yet do you know what he says?
We will not become perfect all at once. We WILL make mistakes. But that is all a part of the plan. God's plan is perfect. As we put our faith and trust in God, and his power, our very natures will begin to change. It is gradual and it is powerful. It is the process of sanctification. One day we can become like God, full of love, hope, charity, faith, compassion, and strength. Until then, he will share his power with us. That is called grace. His grace is sufficient for us. And one day, we will shall see him as he is, and we shall be like him.
dmgdnooc
Active Member
Yes TJ, you're on the right track.
It's all centred around the hearts, of the believer and their God, and the spark of love that connects them.
　
If we have love and compassion and mercy in our hearts then God will say 'dwell with me, my child'; because we are like him, we are of the same kind of being as He.
We are of His family, made in His image and bearing His likeness, even if we are not the sharpest tack in the box, or the shiniest apple on the tree we still belong with Him.
And the house of our Father has many rooms; enough for each one of His children.
　
I understand the fear of mis-representing others and of the judgement of others.
Fed up with 'others', in several different denominations, their petty politics and scheming manipulations and brutal intolerances (and fed up with myself) I walked away and became a loner.
It cured the depression, and peeled a few layers off the onion that is me, but I wouldn't recommend it as anything other than a final desperate act of self-determination.
　
A Christian is required to 'not forsake the gathering together of yourselves' and (in breaking it) I have come to understand the wisdom of that requirement.
I think it must carry equal force for a Muslim also.
In fact, probably more force in Islam, Christianity has a fine and long tradition of accepting, at times even embracing, loners.
　
When I was active in Church life I kept one night open per week for a private gathering with a few like-minded members.
We shared a meal, caught up and participated in a 3 or 4 hour study of this or that aspect of the scriptures (both the practical and the esoteric) or of an expositional book.
Some studies ran for years, but most were a matter of months.
I was always left with the feeling of being strengthened by the fellowship of those nights.
And gained an appreciation of, and ear for, the thoughts of those who were not 'others'.
Do you have a similar back-channel to your congregation, or would it be of advantage to you to develop one?
I ask because it seems to me this was, for me, the best safety valve I had to release the pressure of depression.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
It is safe to be skeptical when there is so many perversions of scripture on the market. Don't allow skepticism to keep credible scholars from earning your trust. Just don't be afraid to question when you are in doubt. Be afraid when you fail to question when in doubt.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
How do you interpret this passage and others like it from the Qur'an?TJ73 said:
[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
It seems very clear to me that according to the Qur'an, God does not forgive investigation and doubt. What is your interpretation?
Means to me that the time for investigation and seeking is here and now. To hold at the very least to belief. To not go so far away from belief that you die in discord and have no place. I see it to mean take the faculties you have now and use them to get to some understanding, don't just throw up your hands.
So it's more about quitting in your eyes?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Absolutely God is cool with questioning and reasoning and studying.
He doesnt even expect us to believe without evidence. This is seen by the fact that he provided clear evidence to the Isrealites in the form of miracles. Moses asked God what he should do if they didnt believe him, then God said for him to throw down his stick and it would turn into a snake....that was so they could have evidence that Moses was being sent by God.
God even tells us through the NT not to simply 'believe' what we are told, but to 'examine and inquire' as to what is being heard. 1 John Do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.
The NT praises the Beroeans because they did not simply accept what they heard from the christians but they checked with the scriptures first
Acts 17:11-12 The [Beroeans] were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
The Belief has different levels. The highest level of belief is Certitude, which the chosen ones of God and prophets would attain.
"The first is the independent investigation of truth; for blind imitation of the past will stunt the mind. But once every soul inquireth into truth, society will be freed from the darkness of continually repeating the past. " Selection From the wrtings of Abdulbaha, p255
"...by religion is meant that which is ascertained by investigation and not that which is based on mere imitation, the foundations of Divine Religions and not human imitations." Selection From the wrtings of Abdulbaha, p296
"...they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets." Baha'u'llah - Book of Certitude
The Valley of Search
"The steed of this Valley is patience; without patience the wayfarer on this journey will reach nowhere and attain no goal. Nor should he ever be downhearted; if he strive for a hundred thousand years and yet fail to behold the beauty of the Friend, he should not falter. For those who seek the Ka‘bih of “for Us” rejoice in the tidings: “In Our ways will We guide them.” In their search, they have stoutly girded up the loins of service, and seek at every moment to journey from the plane of heedlessness into the realm of being. No bond shall hold them back, and no counsel shall deter them.
It is incumbent on these servants that they cleanse the heart—which is the wellspring of divine treasures—from every marking, and that they turn away from imitation, which is following the traces of their forefathers and sires, and shut the door of friendliness and enmity upon all the people of the earth. " The Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah
Qur'án 29:69: “And whoso maketh efforts for Us, in Our ways will We guide them.”
"The first is the independent investigation of truth; for blind imitation of the past will stunt the mind. But once every soul inquireth into truth, society will be freed from the darkness of continually repeating the past. " Selection From the wrtings of Abdulbaha, p255
"...by religion is meant that which is ascertained by investigation and not that which is based on mere imitation, the foundations of Divine Religions and not human imitations." Selection From the wrtings of Abdulbaha, p296
"...they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets." Baha'u'llah - Book of Certitude
The Valley of Search
"The steed of this Valley is patience; without patience the wayfarer on this journey will reach nowhere and attain no goal. Nor should he ever be downhearted; if he strive for a hundred thousand years and yet fail to behold the beauty of the Friend, he should not falter. For those who seek the Ka‘bih of “for Us” rejoice in the tidings: “In Our ways will We guide them.” In their search, they have stoutly girded up the loins of service, and seek at every moment to journey from the plane of heedlessness into the realm of being. No bond shall hold them back, and no counsel shall deter them.
It is incumbent on these servants that they cleanse the heart—which is the wellspring of divine treasures—from every marking, and that they turn away from imitation, which is following the traces of their forefathers and sires, and shut the door of friendliness and enmity upon all the people of the earth. " The Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah
Qur'án 29:69: “And whoso maketh efforts for Us, in Our ways will We guide them.”
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