Believers: Does God forgive investigation and doubt?

[Mr Spinkles]

As Salaamu Alaykum,

Yes in short ,God wants us to use our intellect to search the truth and according to Quran, those people who are sincerely searching for the truth will surely be guided...there are hundreads of verses in Quran which encourages people to use their intllect

"In this way Allah makes His Signs clear to you, so that hopefully you will use your intellect."[Quran 2:242]

"It is He Who gives life and causes to die and His is the alternation of the night and day. So will you not use your intellect?" [Quran 23:80]

Other translations say something different. It looks like you are using something like the "Sahih International" English translation? But the Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, and Shakir translations all differ from this version [Quran 23:80]:

Pickthall
And He it is Who giveth life and causeth death, and His is the difference of night and day. Have ye then no sense?
Yusuf Ali
It is He Who gives life and death, and to Him (is due) the alternation of Night and Day: will ye not then understand?
Shakir
And He it is Who gives life and causes death, and (in) His (control) is the alternation of the night and the day; do you not then understand?
​

also: [23.80] And He it is Who gives life and causes death, and (in) His (control) is the alternation of the night and the day; do you not then understand?

In all these translations, the meaning is that if you do not accept the Qur'an, you must not understand, or have any sense. That is very different from saying, "Use your intellect". It's saying, "If you disagree with me, you're stupid."

"Among His Signs is that He shows you lightning,a source of fear and eager hope, and sends down water from the sky, bringing the dead earth back to life by it. There are certainly Signs in that for people who use their intellect.[Quran 30:24]

This doesn't say "use your intellect". It says if you don't see "Signs" in ordinary natural phenomena, like lightning, then you must not be using your intellect. Benjamin Franklin did not regard lightning as a "Sign" from God. Did he use his intellect to understand lightning? For example, when he invented the lightning rod and worked out the theory that electricity is composed of moving charges? It's remarkable that the Qur'an, for all its Signs and its emphasis on intellect and understanding, did not show any understanding of the most basic facts on its own subjects -- e.g., the fact that lightning is composed of moving charges and can be harmlessly redirected with a metal spike. The Qur'an is being quite arrogant here. Please don't take that as an insult. Please show me how this is not arrogant: "If you disagree with me, you are not using your intellect". That's what the Qur'an is saying. How is that not arrogant? If I said that, wouldn't I be arrogant? Isn't this a very, very different statement from, "You don't have to agree with me -- but you should use your intellect!"

Quran on those people who don't use their intellect and reject the signs of creator

"I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof." [Quran 7:146]

A great example of how intolerant the Qur'an is of investigation and doubt. If you investigate another path other than Islam, and follow it, you must be "arrogant" and "heedless". No mention in this verse that intelligent, humble people might follow paths other than Islam.

No where in 47:34 does it says that you shouldn't question or investigate .

I said, 47:34 says God does NOT forgive investigation and questioning. Okay, sure, if you "investigate" Islam without ever doubting it, then God will forgive you. But that is not true investigation. For example, if I say you should "investigate" and "question" whether my beliefs are true, but if you ever doubt my beliefs I am going to kill you, then I am asking you to carry out a very limited and superficial "investigation" am I not? I would be saying: sure, you should question me .... as long as you always answer your own questions with "Yes, Mr Spinkles' beliefs are right!" Otherwise, I'm going to have you burned forever. Gee, I wonder what answers you will find when you are encouraged to "question" under such threats?

It says to disbelieve is kufr. If the disbelievers weren't punished in hereafter then there wouldn't be any need of this 'test of life' and no one would have obeyed God

Nonsense. Many people obey their parents. They do this even though their belief in their parents' existence is never "tested". Many people would obey God just the same even if his existence was obvious, instead of a "test", especially if his advice was wise, instead of unjust, as it sometimes is in the Qur'an.

 

[Gaura Priya]

As a liberal Abrahamic, I know and believe that God exists, and will save everyone eventually, even atheists, because to me, salvation is not by belief, but by development of virtues in this lifetime.

Thus, I do believe that God does forgive any form of investigation and doubt, because He has gifted humankind with rationality, reasoning and intellect in order to discern, discriminate and differentiate. Without these gifts, we would not have a plethora of views on what this transcendent nature which all cultures and societies speak of, is.

 

[Bismillah]

We are created with the faculties of intelligence which spawn both speculation and doubt because it allows humanity to discern the truth and in this realization adhere to it. The devil did not bestow on us intelligence, it is a product of Allah upon his creation so that our ultimate goal may be realized.

If we were to accept, as mindless automatons, our raison d'etre would be quite moot.

The stories of the munafiq and doubters are not pertinent because of some bygone tribes and people but because they reflect our inner-self. Within each of us there is a voice of doubt that we seek to soothe by investigation and relization.

"[FONT=goudy old style, book antiqua, bell mt]Guide us on the straight path,
the path of those who have received your grace;
not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray."[/FONT]

 

[not yet now]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

Before anyone starts bashing me too hard, please allow a few moments for me to get my armor suit on,thanx :rainbow1:

HMMM BY ARMOR
COULD BE U ARE MAKING A REFERENCE TO THE BIBLE..
AND PERHAPS BE..... A BELIEVER..

anyways
investigating and doubting
are not necessarily the same
one can investigate to better understand one's faith
without doubting....
which suggests a deeper faith....
than when there are doubts of a certain nature
but doubts need not be about god....
but about his effectiveness perhaps in some situations...
without doubting god..
which is kind of maybe the case with job
or more not doubting god as much as doubting self at times....

but full faith i would think
would mean one does not doubt that god can aid one in all things...
as suggested by what jesus says in john
THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES ALL THINGS....

 

[waitasec]

why would god forgive doubt?

when children second guesses a parent, does the parent find it necessary to forgive their child? i means, is it even an issue, isn't it a given or expected that children would doubt their parents?

 

[Sahar]

But the Qur'an says a person who dies an unbeliever will not be forgiven. So, according to the Qur'an you can be blamed, even if you sincerely asked for the truth, etc. No?

I believe in some laws that I consider them "laws of life". One of them is when you honestly struggle for something, you will eventually get it. And to the skeptical mind, I say, suppose you didn't then your effort won't go in vain in the scale of the divine justice. The path of the truth can't be excluded from this law. So sincere searching for the truth means finding the truth eventually. Again, to the skeptical mind, suppose you couldn't find it, then your sincerity and effort will secure you from being judged as a kafir according to the scale of the divine justice. What's kufr? Kufr is realizing the truth then rejecting it. Why would any sane person do this?! Because there are some factors, elements and urges that veil one's sanity and sincerity entails overcoming all these to view things properly. The Qur'an said that God doesn't punish anyone except after sending the messenger.

Frankly, I am very puzzled by the (flawed) thinking of some people of how they want belief and disbelief to be equal at the end. If they are equal, why bother to investigate and struggle for the truth in the first place?! If they are equal, then there is no truth. If happiness and unhappiness or success and failure are equal, why bother to do or not to do anything?! No one can deny this important meaning called responsibility but when it comes to the belief or disbelief paths they want it to fade away, "eventually these two paths must be treated the same and we shouldn't be held accountable for walking into either path".

Contrast this with the Qur'an, which threatens and ridicules and criticizes everyone who questions it. God does NOT forgive investigation and doubt, according to the Qur'an:[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.

God says that investigation is necessary to differentiate between right and wrong, truth and falsehood. Investigation is a means to know the right thing, to reach the truth. It's extremely naive to suggest that investigation means all paths are equal.
Who disbelieve and turns away from Allah's way means that he knew Allah's way but turned away. Of course Allah's way is the true way. I can't imagine how anyone can suggest that the Qur'an shouldn't distinguish between right and wrong, shouldn't name the right way and the wrong way, shouldn't reward or punish people based on either they struggled in the right or the wrong way.
I don't know what should the Qur'an says ummm "people, investigate, be sincere and use your intellect and take care that using intellect can lead you to different opposite paths although I said opposite, they will lead to the same result, no matter where your intellect and investigation takes you, it's all good, don't ask me why I asked you to investigate, be sincere and use your intellect in the first place if it's all good"!!! Ahhh, infinite wisdom!!!
Indeed "And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allāh. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying." Holy Qur'an

Btw;

this is Thomas Jefferson, who himself believed in a god but encouraged others to use their intellect:"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

I like the quote...on the contrary, I find it in harmony with the Qur'an and its emphasis on reason as a the only acceptable means to reach God.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I believe in some laws that I consider them "laws of life". One of them is when you honestly struggle for something, you will eventually get it. And to the skeptical mind, I say, suppose you didn't then your effort won't go in vain in the scale of the divine justice. The path of the truth can't be excluded from this law. So sincere searching for the truth means finding the truth eventually.

[Emphasis added]. Do you really believe that everything is so obvious and simple, that the truth is only undiscoverable to insincere people? So I guess Galileo and Newton and Copernicus and Aristotle were all insincere, then? It seems according to your logic, if they had been sincere, they would have discovered the truth of 20th century physics.

Again, to the skeptical mind, suppose you couldn't find it, then your sincerity and effort will secure you from being judged as a kafir according to the scale of the divine justice.

Where in the Qur'an do you find these qualifications? I don't see where it says a sincere/thoughtful disbeliever will be forgiven. For example:

[ 35.34] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.​

There are many verses like this. Which verse says any unbelievers will be forgiven for being sincere, thoughtful, virtuous, etc.?

Frankly, I am very puzzled by the (flawed) thinking of some people of how they want belief and disbelief to be equal at the end. If they are equal, why bother to investigate and struggle for the truth in the first place?! If they are equal, then there is no truth. If happiness and unhappiness or success and failure are equal, why bother to do or not to do anything?!

First, no one is saying true beliefs and untrue beliefs are equal. The issue here is hell. Second, there are many reasons to investigate and struggle for the truth. Discovery is a wonderful experience and knowledge can help improve your life, and the lives of our children. This would be true whether or not people are punished in the afterlife, for anything. I'm astonished that you seem to think the truth is not worth investigating, unless Allah threatens you into doing it.

No one can deny this important meaning called responsibility but when it comes to the belief or disbelief paths they want it to fade away, "eventually these two paths must be treated the same and we shouldn't be held accountable for walking into either path".
God says that investigation is necessary to differentiate between right and wrong, truth and falsehood. Investigation is a means to know the right thing, to reach the truth. It's extremely naive to suggest that investigation means all paths are equal.

Again, no one is saying all paths are equal. I am sure you agree that not all ways of investigating disease, for example, or all conclusions from these investigations, are equal. This is true whether or not anyone is punished in hell for having mistaken beliefs about disease.

Who disbelieve and turns away from Allah's way means that he knew Allah's way but turned away. Of course Allah's way is the true way. I can't imagine how anyone can suggest that the Qur'an shouldn't distinguish between right and wrong, shouldn't name the right way and the wrong way, shouldn't reward or punish people based on either they struggled in the right or the wrong way.

But Qur'anic verse [35.34] and many verses like it do not say wrong things are punished, or people who are insincere are punished. It says disbelievers are punished. Or do you see no difference?

Btw;
I like the quote...on the contrary, I find it in harmony with the Qur'an and its emphasis on reason as a the only acceptable means to reach God.

How is it in harmony with any of the verses we have seen? For example:

[ 74.31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those whodisbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.
​

[Emphasis added] So the unbelievers ask questions (how terrible! ) ... meanwhile, the believers do not ask questions; they are certain, and do not doubt ... how is this in harmony with Jefferson's quote? How can you "question with boldness" if you are always certain and never doubt? If people use reason, they will err sometimes, so if you punish error aren't you punishing reason?

 

[Bismillah]

[ 35.34] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.

Do you know the context of the revelations of this Surah? It was during the mid-Meccan period where the Prophet and his followers came under increasing threat from the polytheists and idolaters.

Here is a direct quote from Maududi on the matter

"Here, one should bear in mind two things very clearly. First, the people being mentioned here were not the common people, but the chiefs of Makkah who were employing every falsehood, every fraud and every trick to defeat the mission of the Holy Prophet. These people were in fact not involved in any misunderstanding about the Holy Prophet. They knew full well what he was calling theta to and what were the evils and moral weaknesses which they themselves were striving to maintain. After knowing and understanding All this they had firmly resolved not to let him succeed in his object, and for this purpose they did not feel any hesitation in using any mean or petty device. Now, evidently the people who deliberately and after annual consultation invent a new falsehood every next day and spread it against a person, can deceive the whole world but as for themselves they know that they are the liars and that the person whom they have accused is free of every blame. Then, if the person against whom the false propaganda is being made also does not react and respond in a way opposed to truth and righteousness, the unjust people also cannot help realizing that their opponent is a truthful and honest man. If in spite of this the people do not feel ashamed of their misconduct and continue to oppose and resist the truth with falsehood. their conduct itself testifies that they are under Allah's curse and they can no longer discriminate between good and evil."

Truly these are those who are referenced in the verse “Allah has sealed their hearts.” [Quran 2:7]

It is the case of Itmām al-hujjah and those who were concerned more with the dunya then the message, truly these people have no solace and serve as the twisted paragons that Muslims are told to avoid.

First, no one is saying true beliefs and untrue beliefs are equal. The issue here is hell. Second, there are many reasons to investigate and struggle for the truth. Discovery is a wonderful experience and knowledge can help improve your life, and the lives of our children. This would be true whether or not people are punished in the afterlife, for anything. I'm astonished that you seem to think the truth is not worth investigating, unless Allah threatens you into doing it.

I wonder what you have discovered that I have not for I know what I have discovered and you have not.

What exactly is the issue with hell and why is the issue not with heaven?

Again, no one is saying all paths are equal. I am sure you agree that not all ways of investigating disease, for example, or all conclusions from these investigations, are equal. This is true whether or not anyone is punished in hell for having mistaken beliefs about disease.

No, all paths are not equal. Some paths, however are more practical and have a noble ending.

It is a widely held belief that the orthodox religions hold onto a particular element of truth, which if pursued in its absolute form leads to Allah. But Islam is the message that clarifies and refines the processes. That said I believe that at the heart of these religions is the concept of tawhid, which comes to describe Islam in one succinct motion.
Mankind is a single nation. So Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners. . ." (The Holy Quran 2:213)

"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them (in belief), to them He will grant their rewards." (4:152)

"And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger, saying: Serve Allah and shun the devil." (16:36)


That is that while these religions holds and emphasizes a certain spiritual value, Islam incorporates them all and as such is the best message for mankind to follow.

[ 74.31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those whodisbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.

The revelation of this surah was the earliest period of Mecca when Walid bin al-Mughirah along with the leaders of the Quraish conspired a campaign of dissemination against the Prophet labeling him a "sorcerer" among other things who sought to separate "man from his brother and father".

It is a the resiliency and triumph of both logic, faith, and intelligence against the slander that targeted the Prophet and does so today. It is rejecting the blatant lies and propaganda spread and countering the Orientalist that we see in our own time.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Bismallah,

Are you saying that the Qur'an only refers to *specific* disbelievers, who were alive at the time of Muhammad? The Qur'an does not talk about disbelievers in general?

 

[Bismillah]

In the context of your verses I am stating that it is held by scholars to refer to the Meccans.

Doubt is a natural byproduct of human intelligence, the same intelligence needed to recognize the divinity of the Qur'an and its message. A successful Muslim uses this doubt to grow closer to Allah, there is a term for it and it escapes my memory.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Bismallah,

So according to your interpretation, do you believe that disbelievers, or perhaps only *some* disbelievers, are not sent to hell?

 

[Bismillah]

So according to your interpretation, do you believe that disbelievers, or perhaps only *some* disbelievers, are not sent to hell?

Irrelevant I am not God and it is not my place to judge the merits of others.

There are numerous verses and hadith of men who shunned Islam, but through a specific moment of humanity and self-realisation they were preserved.

In the context of your verses obviously it is a reference to the Meccans and polytheists who are the ultimate paragons of ignorance and arrogance.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Irrelevant I am not God and it is not my place to judge the merits of others.

Well it is relevant, since that is the topic of this thread. I thought the Qur'an makes it clear, and it is generally accepted, that non-believers go to hell, according to Islam. It is quite strange that the Qur'an, if it were a timeless book of infinite wisdom, would confine its commentary only to very specific people at a very specific point in history, in a small part of the world.

 

[Bismillah]

Then post verses that support your claim because of yet you have not, end of discussion.

I thought the Qur'an makes it clear, and it is generally accepted, that non-believers go to hell, according to Islam.

Clearly I know what you thought and think, sadly whatever the culmination of your thinking is, it is not accepted.

It is quite strange that the Qur'an, if it were a timeless book of infinite wisdom, would confine its commentary only to very specific people at a very specific point in history, in a small part of the world.

If that is strange for you perhaps you should not try and comment on the Qur'an. There are multiple references to bygone people throughout the scripture, but are not isolated just to those people. Each and every one of them holds a greater moral lesson that encompasses past, present, and future society as do these verses.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Then post verses that support your claim because of yet you have not, end of discussion.

I did. The verses say disbelievers will go to hell. They do not say the Meccans we are fighting will go to hell. But if you say the Qur'an says one thing, while meaning something quite different, and this is the standard Islamic interpretation, then I won't argue.
Although I would be interested to hear your interpretation of these verses:

[Qur'an 4.48] Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.​

It sounds like polytheists, at least, cannot be forgiven. Another one:

[Qur'an 3.85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).​

It sounds like people who follow other religions cannot be forgiven, either. Or are these verses only referring to some contemporaries of Muhammad, not to people in general?

Clearly I know what you thought and think, sadly whatever the culmination of your thinking is, it is not accepted.

You should edit the Wiki pages on the subjects of Islam, then:

Those who die believing not in the “One God” do not receive salvation. Salvation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kufrul-Nifaaq: Disbelief out of hypocrisy. This applies to someone who pretends to be a believer but conceals his disbelief. Such a person is called a MUNAFIQ or hypocrite. The Qur'an states: "The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper wilt thou find for them." [Soorah An Nisaa (4), Ayah 145]
Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Qur'an lists several sins that can condemn a person to hell, such as disbelief, riba, and dishonesty.
Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

If that is strange for you perhaps you should not try and comment on the Qur'an.

Oh I'm only saying it would be strange, if it were a book of infinite and timeless wisdom for all ages. I don't actually find it that strange because I do not believe this is such a book.

 

[Bismillah]

1. Quite clearly the matter at hand is "investigation and doubt" for some reason you are talking of those who have clearly rejected the topic at hand are now at the stage of "denial".

The verses say disbelievers will go to hell. They do not say the Meccans we are fighting will go to hell. But if you say the Qur'an says one thing, while meaning something quite different, and this is the standard Islamic interpretation, then I won't argue.

The context is of the Meccans and the emphasis, as I stated, is that once presented with Itmam i hujjat there is no excuse whatsoever.

Doubt is a natural byproduct and to be expected, but once faced with the incontrovertible truth there is no more justification.

The Meccans are the perverse ideal of this disbelief in the face of truth.

It sounds like polytheists, at least, cannot be forgiven. Another one:

This is the heart of the argument and from which all, the verses you state stem from. A clear rejection of the divine and ascribing this transcendent power to partners is the only inexcusable sin.

It sounds like people who follow other religions cannot be forgiven, either. Or are these verses only referring to some contemporaries of Muhammad, not to people in general?

I read the excerpts from "inthenameofallah", regardless the word is "submission" for which they have substituted "Islam", both of which mean the same thing of course, but have different connotations in the English language.

As I stated the rejection and demeaning of Allah is the greatest sin available to man. However, other religions are not a neccessary rejection of God because as I emphasized the orthodox religions of the world each press a spiritual truth and Islam encompasses these truths.

2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds – shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

Oh I'm only saying it would be strange, if it were a book of infinite and timeless wisdom for all ages.

Clearly, though it is odd that you would find this contradictory.

 

[Hawkins]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

Before anyone starts bashing me too hard, please allow a few moments for me to get my armor suit on,thanx :rainbow1:

It is a matter of extent and balance. You can anytime make your knowledge your religion. People believe that knowledge and science and explain everything and God thus is not needed. This is falloucious conclusion, and a religion at the same time. As long as you can avoid falling for such a trap to disbelieve God, I think seeking knowledge is ok.

Modern people tend to over trust their intelligence and knowledge. The can't bring into their own full awareness that both their intelligence and knowledge are limited. So you ask that if their intelligence and knowledge is limited, they will answer yes. If on the hand, you ask if they have to rely almost exclusively their intelligence and knowledge, they will also answer with a 'yes', not necessarily a verbal 'yes' but their behavior says so.

Warning from the Genesis, they eat too much from the Tree of Knowledge to think that their eyes are open such that they can judge like God does. The day they eat of it, the same day they shall surely die.

 

[Sahar]

[Emphasis added]. Do you really believe that everything is so obvious and simple, that the truth is only undiscoverable to insincere people? So I guess Galileo and Newton and Copernicus and Aristotle were all insincere, then? It seems according to your logic, if they had been sincere, they would have discovered the truth of 20th century physics.

Where in the Qur'an do you find these qualifications? I don't see where it says a sincere/thoughtful disbeliever will be forgiven. For example:

[ 35.34] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.

There are many verses like this. Which verse says any unbelievers will be forgiven for being sincere, thoughtful, virtuous, etc.?
First, no one is saying true beliefs and untrue beliefs are equal. The issue here is hell. Second, there are many reasons to investigate and struggle for the truth. Discovery is a wonderful experience and knowledge can help improve your life, and the lives of our children. This would be true whether or not people are punished in the afterlife, for anything. I'm astonished that you seem to think the truth is not worth investigating, unless Allah threatens you into doing it.
Again, no one is saying all paths are equal. I am sure you agree that not all ways of investigating disease, for example, or all conclusions from these investigations, are equal. This is true whether or not anyone is punished in hell for having mistaken beliefs about disease.
But Qur'anic verse [35.34] and many verses like it do not say wrong things are punished, or people who are insincere are punished. It says disbelievers are punished. Or do you see no difference?
How is it in harmony with any of the verses we have seen? For example:

[ 74.31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those whodisbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.

[Emphasis added] So the unbelievers ask questions (how terrible! ) ... meanwhile, the believers do not ask questions; they are certain, and do not doubt ... how is this in harmony with Jefferson's quote? How can you "question with boldness" if you are always certain and never doubt? If people use reason, they will err sometimes, so if you punish error aren't you punishing reason?

It would be completely meaningless to respond to every comment you made. I see much twisting of what I said and the Qur'anic Ayaat in your post. So I am picking three statements of yours:

So I guess Galileo and Newton and Copernicus and Aristotle were all insincere, then?

I have no reason to say so. Their effort and work didn't go in vain, they added much to our world by their knowledge and work...this is the fruit of their effort. This is exactly the law that I am speaking about. I said that searching for the path of the truth with sincerity (I believe the context of "the truth" is clear...surely I didn't mean the truth of Lady Gaga's private parts!!:areyoucra ), will lead eventually to the path of the truth by the Will of God. God is the Just. This sincerity means trying to get rid of the influence of the surrounding environment, culture, the dominating power as much as possible i.e trying to be neutral and open to all possibilities as much as possible, this sincerity means being ready to accept the truth no matter how much it will cost. This sincerity means exerting effort with persistence in your investigation or journey to the path of the truth.

I don't see where it says a sincere/thoughtful disbeliever will be forgiven

Thoughtful kafir is putting two opposites together. The kafir can be thoughtful in engineering or medicine, etc, but he will be concealed from the higher and first truth. Actually, he is the one who veiled his heart, mind and senses by his arrogance and vain desire. Kufr is the worst state of mind and life, may God save us from it and guide us to the straight path. I think what you are unable to comprehend is the definition of "kafir". Not every non Muslim is judged as a kafir, as I pointed many times before.
The other problem with you argument is equating between investigating/doubting/questioning with disbelieving. Disbelieving or believing is the latter stage, you already made up your mind in that stage and this doesn't mean that doubt can't reappear, of course it can. You usually investigate/question/search to find answers...to find the lost pieces. Can there be people who die while they are in the investigation stage? God only knows! There might be others who give up, and there are others who feel they realized which path to take.

The believer can't be blamed for trusting/having faith/not doubting if he found the lost pieces after careful investigation, after contemplating and reasoning. And the truth is that faith is not static, no, it goes up and down. To some people faith doesn't fall lower than a certain level because they fortified themselves well by their knowledge, their relation with the Creator, the effort they already spent to get closer to God, their good deeds, etc. To others, moments of weakness and doubt may come after which their faith is renewed or maybe lost.
Of course, things can be very confusing and this life is full of temptations and pressures, it's not simple. For this, I believe who actually guide the person is God. It can be like standing at the crossroads, you don't know which road to take but you are honest and persistent on finding the exit to the truth, for your honesty and good intention and for your taking of the first steps, God lights the path of the truth for you. Or it maybe you thought you found the road but it wasn't the right one and for your sincerity and good intention, God guides you to the right one.

The Qur'an is not neutral to the matter of belief and disbelief, the Qur'an promotes a certain idea, certain principles and values. The Qur'an named the truth and named the falsehood. The Qur'an shall never say belief is good and disbelief is good too but the Qur'an already established the principle of freedom of following certain beliefs or religions and at the same time there is nothing called absolute freedom because with freedom comes responsibility and accountability. You can choose to do this or that, but your decision should be taken in the light of your responsibility and the potential consequences. Also, the Qur'an emphasized that belief should be through knowledge and intellect. Blind faith has no place in the Qur'anic dictionary.

The issue here is hell.

The issue here is the fruits of certain choices and maybe the sacrifices too. The issue here is the consequences of our choices and how these consequences determine much of our choices. Hell AND heaven represent the summit outcome to the matter of belief and disbelief and they are the outcome to this in the Hereafter. In this life, there are other consequences/status depending on which path you walk through.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

1. Quite clearly the matter at hand is "investigation and doubt" for some reason you are talking of those who have clearly rejected the topic at hand are now at the stage of "denial".

No. A person in "denial" is one who knows something is true, but rejects it anyway. Look: you believe Islam is true. I do not think Islam is true. However, we do not need to accuse each other of being in "denial". The same would be true if we disagreed on any topic, such as philosophy, history, or science. It is possible -- in fact it is very common -- for thoughtful people to arrive at different conclusions, even though both persons reached their conclusions based on sincere investigation and doubt. One (or both) of us may be incorrect in our conclusions, but that does not mean either of us is in "denial".

Surely we can agree on this much?

This is the heart of the argument and from which all, the verses you state stem from. A clear rejection of the divine and ascribing this transcendent power to partners is the only inexcusable sin.

What if you came to doubt the divine based on sincere investigation, what if you came to believe in transcendent powers, other than God, based on questioning? That is how Socrates and Plato arrived at their conclusions. According to what you believe, they were incorrect. But do you really think they were *bad* or *insincere* people? I believe the early Muslims even translated and preserved Plato's writings on philosophy.

By the way, it's amazing to me that the *only* inexcusable sin is not genocide or infanticide or rape ... truly remarkable.

As I stated the rejection and demeaning of Allah is the greatest sin available to man. However, other religions are not a neccessary rejection of God because as I emphasized the orthodox religions of the world each press a spiritual truth and Islam encompasses these truths.

What if a person engages in investigation and doubt, and is persuaded by a "non-orthodox" religion such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Humanism ... ?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'm sorry Sahar I do not understand your logic. I asked:

So I guess Galileo and Newton and Copernicus and Aristotle were all insincere, then?

To which you replied:

I have no reason to say so. ... I said that searching for the path of the truth with sincerity (I believe the context of "the truth" is clear...surely I didn't mean the truth of Lady Gaga's private parts!!:areyoucra ), will lead eventually to the path of the truth by the Will of God.

Let's break this down logically:

1. Everyone who searches for the truth with sincerity, will find it.
2. Galileo searched for the truth with sincerity.
3. Galileo did not find the truth of 20th century physics.
4. Galileo did not find the truth of Islam.

Logically, all of these statements cannot be true. It seems statement #1 and/or #2, at least, must be wrong.