Believers: Does God forgive investigation and doubt?

[Mr Spinkles]

Thoughtful kafir is putting two opposites together.

But I didn't say kafir. I asked about a thoughtful disbeliever, i.e. a thoughtful atheist or agnostic, or Buddhist or philosopher, or a thoughtful polytheist, etc.

 

[McBell]

Does God forgive investigation and doubt?

Seems to me that it depends entirely upon how big a Prude you believe your god to be.

I would think that an honest god would not only forgive doubt and investigation, but actually encourage it.
I mean, most people say that God is all just and all merciful.
How can he be either, let alone both, if he cannot/will not forgive doubt?

 

[McBell]

Let's break this down logically:

1. Everyone who searches for the truth with sincerity, will find it.
2. Galileo searched for the truth with sincerity.
3. Galileo did not find the truth of 20th century physics.
4. Galileo did not find the truth of Islam.

Logically, all of these statements cannot be true. It seems statement #1 and/or #2, at least, must be wrong.

Seems to me that far to many people cling to the "sincerity" bit as a loop hole to dismiss those who disagree with their version of "truth".

It is nothing more than the "you only disagree because you do not understand" argument.

 

[Bismillah]

No. A person in "denial" is one who knows something is true, but rejects it anyway. Look: you believe Islam is true. I do not think Islam is true. However, we do not need to accuse each other of being in "denial". The same would be true if we disagreed on any topic, such as philosophy, history, or science. It is possible -- in fact it is very common -- for thoughtful people to arrive at different conclusions, even though both persons reached their conclusions based on sincere investigation and doubt. One (or both) of us may be incorrect in our conclusions, but that does not mean either of us is in "denial".

Whatever, if you want to discuss semantics I am not interested. My point stands, you are arguing something that is not relevant to the topic.

What if you came to doubt the divine based on sincere investigation, what if you came to believe in transcendent powers, other than God, based on questioning? That is how Socrates and Plato arrived at their conclusions. According to what you believe, they were incorrect. But do you really think they were *bad* or *insincere* people? I believe the early Muslims even translated and preserved Plato's writings on philosophy.

There is a difference between "doubt" and "rejection", stop blurring the two.

By the way, it's amazing to me that the *only* inexcusable sin is not genocide or infanticide or rape ... truly remarkable.

There is one principle reason for humanity's existence and completely failing to recognize that purpose is the biggest failure, spiritually speaking. That said, there is no physical punishment for shirk as opposed to murder.

The punishment for murder is capital punishment and even greater in the next world, but if you would like to "compare" various sins then this discussion is meaningless.

What if a person engages in investigation and doubt, and is persuaded by a "non-orthodox" religion such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Humanism ... ?

The goal of Islam is realization of Islam and if one is able to reach that through other orthodox religions, despite the barriers, then great.

 

[Sahar]

I'm sorry Sahar I do not understand your logic.

Then I can't help.

What a pity!!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Whatever, if you want to discuss semantics I am not interested. My point stands, you are arguing something that is not relevant to the topic.

Topic of the thread: Does God forgive investigation and doubt? What I'm arguing about: According to Islam, God apparently does not forgive investigation and doubt if it leads away from Islam. My argument is clearly relevant to the topic.

There is a difference between "doubt" and "rejection", stop blurring the two.

But you just said: "Whatever, if you want to discuss semantics I am not interested". Now you do want to discuss semantics ... :areyoucra

There is one principle reason for humanity's existence and completely failing to recognize that purpose is the biggest failure, spiritually speaking. That said, there is no physical punishment for shirk as opposed to murder.

The punishment for murder is capital punishment and even greater in the next world, but if you would like to "compare" various sins then this discussion is meaningless.

But you just compared various sins yourself, first when you said there is only one "inexcusable" sin, and then just now when you compared ... oh, nevermind. :help:

The goal of Islam is realization of Islam and if one is able to reach that through other orthodox religions, despite the barriers, then great.

My question was about non-orthodox religions. Not orthodox religions.

 

[Bismillah]

Topic of the thread: Does God forgive investigation and doubt? What I'm arguing about: According to Islam, God apparently does not forgive investigation and doubt if it leads away from Islam. My argument is clearly relevant to the topic.

Wrong. You are talking about rejection, doubt is a weakness in faith. There is a clear cut difference.

But you just said: "Whatever, if you want to discuss semantics I am not interested". Now you do want to discuss semantics ..

I don't know if you are purposefully doing this or not, but you are consistently manipulating words and blurring the definition. If you will insist on this then tell me right now.

But you just compared various sins yourself, first when you said there is only one "inexcusable" sin, and then just now when you compared ... oh, nevermind.

Quite obviously, do you realize what a response post is?

My question was about non-orthodox religions. Not orthodox religions.

Ultimately if you arrive at the correct interpretation it does not matter the method, but the best method is through Islam as it holds the greatest award in the afterlife.

 

[Sahar]

But I didn't say kafir. I asked about a thoughtful disbeliever, i.e. a thoughtful atheist or agnostic, or Buddhist or philosopher, or a thoughtful polytheist, etc.

Kafir is the word used in the Qur'an. Also, I said not every non Muslim will be judged as a kafir. Who will determine who is kafir and who is not, is God depending on whether Islam reached them in a clean non-distorted way or not , depending on their hearts and intentions (sincerity) and depending on their circumstances.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Kafir is the word used in the Qur'an. Also, I said not every non Muslim will be judged as a kafir. Who will determine who is kafir and who is not, is God depending on whether Islam reached them in a clean non-distorted way or not , depending on their hearts and intentions (sincerity) and depending on their circumstances.

Okay so please correct me if I am wrong: it sounds like according to your interpretation, the Qur'an does not say, necessarily, that an atheist/agnostic or polytheist or Buddhist will go to hell with no forgiveness. It only says that a "kafir" cannot be forgiven, where a "kafir" is basically an arrogant, thoughtless, heedless non-believer who rejects Islam, especially the ancient Meccans who opposed Muhammad and his followers circa 700 C.E.

Is this more or less correct?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Wrong. You are talking about rejection, doubt is a weakness in faith. There is a clear cut difference.

I was simply using the standard English definition of the word "doubt":

–verb (used with object) 1. to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.
​

It sounds like you are saying God forgives "doubt", by which you mean God forgives "a weakness in faith". However, it is clearly relevant to the topic of this thread to also consider whether God forgives "doubt", as in, "considering it questionable or unlikely". Unless the author of the OP had only a limited version of the word "doubt" in mind ... ?

 

[Bismillah]

...There is a clear difference between considering it questionable and rejection.

 

[Sahar]

Okay so please correct me if I am wrong: it sounds like according to your interpretation, the Qur'an does not say, necessarily, that an atheist/agnostic or polytheist or Buddhist will go to hell with no forgiveness. It only says that a "kafir" cannot be forgiven, where a "kafir" is basically an arrogant, thoughtless, heedless non-believer who rejects Islam, especially the ancient Meccans who opposed Muhammad and his followers circa 700 C.E.

Is this more or less correct?

I don't know about the issue of "atheist" because at least such person refused the idea of God's existence all together, I can't tell.
Anyway, generally speaking, what I understand is that for the person to be judged, he must receive the message first and in non distorted way. “We never punish until We have sent a messenger.” (Al-Isra’: 15)

"If the message didn't reach the person, or reached him in a distorted way, or reached him in a truthful way and he didn't save any effort in searching and investigating, he is excused." A rough translation of the fatwa taken from this old Arabic IslamOnline page: إسلام أون لاين.نت - اسألوا أهل الذكر - ما Ø*كم المجتمع الكافر الذي لم تصل إليه الدعوة صØ*يØ*Ø©

 

[Sahar]

I don't know about the issue of "atheist" because at least such person refused the idea of God's existence all together, I can't tell.

Well, it doesn't make a big difference if the person believes in god of war, goddess of love, and goddess of I don't know what else!!
I'd like to keep it in a general sense. God only will judge people.

 

[Gharib]

to clear some things out:

1. those who sencirely search for the truth, faith wise, will be guided to it, here is evidence for it

[youtube]CcxzIE4xxrI[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcxzIE4xxrI

what galileo was searching for had to do with what was not available at the time of his searching, nonetheless he did make findings. this is different to wanting to believe in the real god, this has to do with faith and not with any mechanical aid or something similar.

2. Allah forgives all sins appart from associating partners to him.
all believers, muslims, will eventually enter paradise even those that had as much faith as an atoms weight:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, “When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya’ (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don’t you see that it comes out yellow and twisted” [Bukhari 1:2:21]

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, “Whoever said “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of a barley grain will be taken out of Hell. And whoever said: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of a wheat grain will be taken out of Hell. And whoever said, “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of an atom will be taken out of Hell. [bukhari 1:2:42]

anyone who has never sencierly believed in the words/declaration "I declare that there is no god other than Allah and Muhamed is the servant and mesenger of Allah" falls into the category of those who ascrbie partners to Allah, not only those who believe in more than one god. no associating partners to Allah means to believe that Allah is the one god, not someone else.

however if a muslim once believed in the declaration but died in a state of disbelief they will not be forgiven since the verse says Allah does not forgive those who take others as god.

hope that clarifies some of the points, i will reply to more latter, Insha Allah

 

[Mr Spinkles]

...There is a clear difference between considering it questionable and rejection.

Yes and there's a clear difference between considering it questionable, and having a "weakness of faith". Fortunately, we are free to consider all of these cases, since they are all relevant to the thread.

From what you and Sahar have said, it sounds like you interpret the Qur'an in such a way that it is not clear what forms of doubt can be forgiven, except for rare case of ancient Meccans or others who knew the Qur'an was true, but rejected it anyway. Even most self-described atheists, like myself, would not say they reject the possibility of a Creator. They just consider the claim questionable. Perhaps *very* questionable. If the only people guaranteed no forgiveness are those who 100% reject any possibility of a God, then virtually all non-Muslims may be forgiven.

 

[Bismillah]

Yes and there's a clear difference between considering it questionable, and having a "weakness of faith".

Doubt is wavering of the Iman.

You are discussing outright rejection and on top of that polytheism and shirk. Are you serious?

This is way off base.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Right so eselam, based on what you are saying, Allah may or may not forgive investigation and doubt. It depends on your conclusions. If you find yourself persuaded by incorrect conclusions, after using reason and weighing the evidence, then your investigating and doubting cannot be forgiven. Even if you were sincere, righteous, and thoughtful.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

The Bible instructs us to not fall for the tricks of our adversary. Which by extension, the tricks of man, as the Adversary tempts us to undo one another through vanity.
I believe that if one believes in God, then investigating biblical intrigue should be encouraged.

 

[Bismillah]

Spinkles you consistently miss the point, when a person is punished for disbelieving it is when he rejects God out of stubbornness and fear rather than out of lack of evidence. Period.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Doubt is wavering of the Iman.

No. That's not the definition of the word "doubt". But if you insist on using your own personal definition, that's fine with me. Instead of arguing semantics, let's just consider the following cases: (1) "wavering" of the Iman, (2) considering it questionable, (3) rejection/denial. I totally agree with you, these are different things. Since they are different, let's consider them separately. Based on what you have said (1) can be forgiven, (3) cannot be forgiven. I am still not sure what your opinion is on (2) (although perhaps I missed it?)

You are discussing outright rejection and on top of that polytheism and shirk. Are you serious?

Yes. I asked if non-Islamic religious belief or un-orthodox religious belief, could be forgiven, and your answer was kind of confusing ... you said it will be forgiven "as long as you arrive at the correct interpretation". Is the "correct interpretation" that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger? In other words, a person cannot really be Buddhist or something like that?