Believers: Does God forgive investigation and doubt?

[Mr Spinkles]

Means to me that the time for investigation and seeking is here and now. To hold at the very least to belief. To not go so far away from belief that you die in discord and have no place. I see it to mean take the faculties you have now and use them to get to some understanding, don't just throw up your hands.

First of all, we need to get past this unreasonable bias against anyone who does not believe in Islam. Let me explain: you seem to be suggesting that every person who is not persuaded by the claims of Islam has "thrown up their hands" and they "have no place". This is a totally baseless characterization. Suppose a person is investigating Islam and Buddhism. If they are persuaded by Islam, but not Buddhism, have they "thrown up their hands" on Buddhism? If Buddhism is not their place, do they therefore "have no place"? No. And the same is true for the person who is persuaded by Buddhism (or Humanism or whatever) but not Islam. So let's have no more equating disbelief in Islam to giving up, or to having no place. Buddhists have not given up. Humanists have a place. Same with all other non-Muslim belief systems.

Now, your interpretation of the Qur'anic verse: it sounds like you are saying that a person is allowed to investigate something, but they must always accept conclusion A, and they must never doubt this conclusion. That is not "investigation".

Imagine if I said you can investigate the effects of smoking cigarettes, as long as you never go so far as to die while believing that cigarettes cause lung cancer. Sure you might have doubts sometimes but you must keep the faith that ultimately, somehow, cigarettes are healthy. Investigating cigarettes does not mean you can just "throw up your hands" and believe cigarettes are unhealthy.

"Investigation" is not possible if the mind is shackled this way. You cannot search for the truth this way, or change your mind, you can only try to find ways of convincing yourself that your favorite conclusion (and no other possible conclusion) is correct, whether or not it is actually correct.

So according to your interpretation of the Qur'an it sounds like God does not forgive investigation and doubt. Because what you have described is not "investigation". You aren't searching for the truth in such an "investigation" and you aren't truly doubting. You're only searching for things that will reassure you of your favored conclusion, and not different conclusions.

 

[Zardoz]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

Before anyone starts bashing me too hard, please allow a few moments for me to get my armor suit on,thanx :rainbow1:

First of all, there is a same-faith debate forum, if ever you feel the need for narrowing the responses to just Abrahamics, but good for you to open this for everyone. For myself, many times I've been in the position you describe, but then later I gain an insight that clarifies the cause of my confusion. Sorry I can't give specific example, it's late and I'm tired.

I guess the point is that G-d is so very far away from us, that we are on our own, more or less. How could G-d not forgive doubt, given the circumstances?

 

[Breathe]

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

I believe God is cool with it; he had better be. We have our ability to study and learn for a reason, and it isn't for the sake of ignoring it.

If a god isn't cool with it, well, that doesn't sound like a god to me.


:rainbow1:

 

[Gharib]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

Before anyone starts bashing me too hard, please allow a few moments for me to get my armor suit on,thanx :rainbow1:

es-selamu alaykum

in islam doubt and doubtfull thinking is a result of the sheytan. whenever you have doubts regarding something (wether it has to do with religion or not) it is always from the sheytan and the prophet has said to stay away from what is doubtfull meaning that if you are married and you doubt your partners faithfullness to you, you must stop with the doubt. same with the religion. instead what you can do is talk to someone educated regarding your problems and their answers might clear that doubt. ignore what you have doubts for.

Allah forgives all sins appart from shirk, if one dies in the state of shirk he is not forgiven. with due repentance Allah forgives his creation.

it is a duty upon every muslim to seek knowledge and knowledge is only gained by investigation, questioning, thinking, etc.
a muslim who has something unclear must ask questions regarding it, it is a duty to do so. it is part of gaining knowledge, hence the hadith that the scholars call 'Jibreels (Gabriels) hadith' through questioning the prophet (saws) Jibril teaches the religion of Allah to the people.

 

[BeeBooga]

When I was still studying I was taught that it was unacceptable to question God and religion.
Thought I'd contribute even though I too, and not a theist.

 

[Gharib]

Thanks for these responses. I think another part of my problem and were I get frustrated is the responsibilities of faith. I always fail. I fail and then feel like poo. I can not even wrap my head around people that claim to be able to follow all the things dictated without fail or very little fail and then when they do, just pick up and get back on track. And they love it, and i don't and it makes me doubt myself. I can recognize the reasons and the goodness, but i really struggle.

All muslims have not the same level of faith, i know people who drink alcohol but when it comes to eating pigs meat they abhor the idea. and someone else might commit adultery with no fear in his heart but will not be rough on his elderly parents or vice versa.

in my native language we have a saying: you will eventually become like the people you hang out with. therefore a muslim must strive to spend their time with other good muslims in order to become a good muslim. one cannot be a good muslim if he has no problem sitting with people while they drink alcohol.

the reason you feel bad about your religious duties that you fail at is because you have faith, but if you cannot move on from it and get back to praying for example, then you must increase your faith, because every sin leads to another sin.

why does this make you doubt yourself?

 

[Gharib]

When I was still studying I was taught that it was unacceptable to question God and religion.
Thought I'd contribute even though I too, and not a theist.

in islam it is not preferable to ask a knowledged person (scholar) too many questions. instead it is better to ask the scholar to tell you something. a scholar can judge the amount of faith one has and he begins to speak of what the questioner is capable of swallowing and acting upon.

Prophet Muhamed salallahu alayhi we salam has said that a scholar is like a tree, if you shake a branch of a fruit bearing tree, the fruit that is ready for eating will fall to the ground but if you keep shaking it more and more after the eatable fruit has fallen then you will get fruit that is distastefull. so if you ask a scholar some questions is better than to ask him plenty of questions where the answers to some of the questions will be distatestefull to the questioner.

 

[BeeBooga]

in islam it is not preferable to ask a knowledged person (scholar) too many questions. instead it is better to ask the scholar to tell you something. a scholar can judge the amount of faith one has and he begins to speak of what the questioner is capable of swallowing and acting upon.

Prophet Muhamed salallahu alayhi we salam has said that a scholar is like a tree, if you shake a branch of a fruit bearing tree, the fruit that is ready for eating will fall to the ground but if you keep shaking it more and more after the eatable fruit has fallen then you will get fruit that is distastefull. so if you ask a scholar some questions is better than to ask him plenty of questions where the answers to some of the questions will be distatestefull to the questioner.

While I understand why that is, I'm not the questioning type.
One question in my religion would merit discipline if they even had the hint of questioning God.

 

[Jacksnyte]

While I understand why that is, I'm not the questioning type.
One question in my religion would merit discipline if they even had the hint of questioning God.

So you consider Atheism to be your religion? Just curious, as most Atheists don't seem to feel this way.

 

[BruceDLimber]

In fact, God COMMANDS investigation!

Which is why Individual I(nvestigation of Truth is one of the central Baha'i principles!

Each individual has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and follow that. And NO ONE else--not spouse, clergy, family, or friends--has the right to interfere in this process!

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Sahar]

According to my understanding of the Qur'an; God's will for us is to investigate, search for the truth and use our intellect. Moreover, the Qur'an criticized harshly those who abandoned this gift called intellect and who follows any set of beliefs and customs blindly:
...They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.
Surat Al-A'raf
Indeed, they are less than the livestock, because what differentiate us from other beings is our intellectual capabilities that enable us to reason and have a free will.

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allāh has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?
From Surat Al-Baqarah
This is what we actually witness in the different part of the world; people who just live by the beliefs and customs of the surrounding environment or just follow the stronger even if it's against the values of justice or just follow the current trend. The Qur'an calls for reasoning and defending the values of truth and justice despite the surrounding circumstances, despite the leading civilization or power.

I like the way in which the Qur'an emphasize reason and its importance, in many many places:
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allāh has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason.
Al-Baqarah: 164

He causes to grow for you thereby the crops, olives, palm trees, grapevines, and from all the fruits. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.
ِAn-Nahl:11

And many others...

What makes the final message different from the previous ones, is that it raised a very important basis that belief in God is through our free will, intellect and knowledge and it's not surprising at all to find the very first verse revealed starts with "Read". No compulsion in reaching God even the compulsion of the "physical miracles" of the previous ages of infancy is not acceptable after the age of humanity's maturity, after the age of "Read".

 

[Sahar]

The other thing that I want to make clear and which I believe in firmly that God doesn't treat us with injustice at all; And We place the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so no soul will be treated unjustly at all. And if there is [even] the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. And sufficient are We as accountant. Al-Anbyaa: 47

And that God doesn't ask us to do anything beyond our abilities:
Allāh does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. From Surat Al-Baqarah.

And based on this I do believe that when you sincerely ask for the truth and this include the will to bear some hardship or even sacrifices to reach it, the law of this life says that you will eventually even it will take years. But suppose, suppose that you couldn't reach the truth after all this, you can't be blamed at all.

 

[Levite]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

Before anyone starts bashing me too hard, please allow a few moments for me to get my armor suit on,thanx

I say yes, absolutely.

God created us as independent, reasoning creatures of free will, and He deliberately did not make the search for meaning and truths simplistic and easy. The kind of beings, in short, who are prone to doubt, to examine and re-examine, to search, and to question. And the God I believe in, at least, would not create beings to be of one nature and then demand of them that they try to live according to an entirely different nature.

I also think that God knows that blind faith is no faith at all. True faith is a choice. And if that choice is not made consciously, from a foundation of inner stability, in such a way as to survive questioning, self-scrutiny, and doubt, it will always be fragile.

I think that so long as we live good lives-- helping those who need help, trying to care for the poor and the defenseless, promoting social justice, peace, and tolerance-- He gives us great lattitude indeed about being in process with issues spiritual, theological, and ritual. And even if we somehow transgress farther than we have lattitude to stray, I believe God is endlessly forgiving, and if we come to recognize where we have transgressed, and commit to avoiding doing so in the future, our regret earns us forgiveness as a matter of course.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I got this:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/112369-creationism-vs.html

But it's my own rant.

Just sayin', it ain't so much - god forgiving, as you forgiving. These sacred texts, not only assume the god; but the god in you as well. The only way through my father is through me - what does that tell you, about a god who calls himself, I AM? What does the Koran recite; your own soul, will bring you down?

What god seems to be kinda unforgiving on? Is you believing in someone else's doubt.

 

[BeeBooga]

So you consider Atheism to be your religion? Just curious, as most Atheists don't seem to feel this way.

No. I often refer to my previous religion as 'my religion', even though I don't follow it any longer.
Sorry for the miss understanding.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And based on this I do believe that when you sincerely ask for the truth and this include the will to bear some hardship or even sacrifices to reach it, the law of this life says that you will eventually even it will take years. But suppose, suppose that you couldn't reach the truth after all this, you can't be blamed at all.

But the Qur'an says a person who dies an unbeliever will not be forgiven. So, according to the Qur'an you can be blamed, even if you sincerely asked for the truth, etc. No?

 

[Madhuri]

In my personal/religious opinion, doubt and questioning are part of the process of discovering truth and this exploration/discovery is the point of living. God does not punish or forgive or favour any person or action. God simply loves.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

Hello TJ73

One may feel after understanding the Holy Quran, it invites people to ponder on the signs that there is a Divine existence. On numerous occasions in Quran Allah has addressed those with intellect, and called them to ponder on different things. Allah says in Quran:

"But none will grasp the message except the men of intellect."[Quran 2:269]

Blind faith exists when one takes it for granted. Islam is against it, you always come across verses in the Quran that Urges its readers to always seek faith through observation.

"When they are told, “Follow these revelations of God,” They say,” No, we follow only what we found our parents doing.” What if the devil is leading them to the agony of Hell?" [Quran 31:21]

We must read the Quran and reflect on each and every verse of it:

"This is a scripture that we sent down to you, that is sacred—perhaps they reflect on its verses. Those who possess intelligence will take heed."[Quran 38:29]

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things."[Quran 29:20]

and the list goes on...

It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

Satan is destroyer of a person's belief, and destruction of faithfulness to Almighty Allah is his game , you need to pray to Allah(swt) to strengthen your faith..

"He did lead me astray from the Message (of Allah) after it had come to me! Ah! The Satan is but a traitor to man!" And the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Quran for just foolish nonsense."[Quran 25:29-30]

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This is very interesting. Sahar and A Thousand Suns say that according to the Qur'an we should use reason and intellect and ponder things, and no one can be blamed for honestly questioning/investigating. However, they quote passages which say no such thing.

For example, the passages do not actually say "use your intellect". Instead, the passages criticize the intellect of anyone who questions the Qur'an.

Here is what it sounds like when someone actually encourages you to use your intellect ... this is Thomas Jefferson, who himself believed in a god but encouraged others to use their intellect:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
​

Contrast this with the Qur'an, which threatens and ridicules and criticizes everyone who questions it. God does NOT forgive investigation and doubt, according to the Qur'an:

[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
​

 

[A Thousand Suns]

This is very interesting. Sahar and A Thousand Suns say that according to the Qur'an we should use reason and intellect and ponder things, and no one can be blamed for honestly questioning/investigating. However, they quote passages which say no such thing.

As Salaamu Alaykum,

Yes in short ,God wants us to use our intellect to search the truth and according to Quran, those people who are sincerely searching for the truth will surely be guided...there are hundreads of verses in Quran which encourages people to use their intllect

"In this way Allah makes His Signs clear to you, so that hopefully you will use your intellect."[Quran 2:242]

"It is He Who gives life and causes to die and His is the alternation of the night and day. So will you not use your intellect?" [Quran 23:80]

"Among His Signs is that He shows you lightning,a source of fear and eager hope, and sends down water from the sky, bringing the dead earth back to life by it. There are certainly Signs in that for people who use their intellect.[Quran 30:24]

Quran on those people who don't use their intellect and reject the signs of creator

"I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof." [Quran 7:146]

For example, the passages do not actually say "use your intellect". Instead, the passages criticize the intellect of anyone who questions the Qur'an.

No Quran emphasizes at many places to use your intellect to find the truth , until you are not convinced and it criticizes the people who don't use their intellect

"In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within themselves, so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything?" [Quran - 41:53]

Here is what it sounds like when someone actually encourages you to use your intellect ... this is Thomas Jefferson, who himself believed in a god but encouraged others to use their intellect:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
​

Contrast this with the Qur'an, which threatens and ridicules and criticizes everyone who questions it. God does NOT forgive investigation and doubt, according to the Qur'an:

[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
​

No where in 47:34 does it says that you shouldn't question or investigate . It says to disbelieve is kufr. If the disbelievers weren't punished in hereafter then there wouldn't be any need of this 'test of life' and no one would have obeyed God