Believers: Does God forgive investigation and doubt?

[Mr Spinkles]

Spinkles you consistently miss the point, when a person is punished for disbelieving it is when he rejects God out of stubbornness and fear rather than out of lack of evidence. Period.

I understand this is your point, but this is not what eselam said (and I was responding to eselam).

 

[Bismillah]

No. That's not the definition of the word "doubt". But if you insist on using your own personal definition, that's fine with me.

Given that the poster is Muslim asking specifically for input from Abrahamic faith I wonder why you consistently try to change the topic.

1 and 2 are the same, 3 is not.

The Prophet's purpose was to deliver a message to enlighten the world and reaffirm our purpose. It ultimately ends at a realization of Allah, God, or whatever monotheistic entity you want to label it as in your personal language.

The correct "interpretation" is the realization of this fact and desire to be as close as possible with him.

I understand this is your point, but this is not what eselam said (and I was responding to eselam).

Look up Itmam i hujjat, it ends the discussion.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Given that the poster is Muslim asking specifically for input from Abrahamic faith I wonder why you consistently try to change the topic.

Yes the poster is Muslim and asking about Abrahamic faith. Notice I am asking about the God of Abrahamic faith, according to Muslims (like you and Sahar). I'm not changing the topic. Why not just answer simple questions instead of avoiding them?

1 and 2 are the same, 3 is not.

Considering a proposition questionable = wavering in your faith? So physicists who consider string theory questionable, are simply wavering in their faith in string theory? A person who considers American foreign policy questionable, is merely wavering in their faith in American foreign policy? Clearly these are two separate things.

The Prophet's purpose was to deliver a message to enlighten the world and reaffirm our purpose. It ultimately ends at a realization of Allah, God, or whatever monotheistic entity you want to label it as in your personal language.

The correct "interpretation" is the realization of this fact and desire to be as close as possible with him.

But you don't actually have to arrive at this interpretation if your beliefs are due to lack of evidence (as you said two posts ago) correct?

 

[Gharib]

Right so eselam, based on what you are saying, Allah may or may not forgive investigation and doubt. It depends on your conclusions. If you find yourself persuaded by incorrect conclusions, after using reason and weighing the evidence, then your investigating and doubting cannot be forgiven. Even if you were sincere, righteous, and thoughtful.

i didn't say anything about Allah forgiving or not forgiving investigation and doubt. however i will elaborate on this now.

Doubting and investigation come in different ways and forms so it depends on the kind of doubt one has. example, Imam Bukhari took on the journey to collect the Ahadith (sayings) of Muhamed salallahu alayhi we salam. in his journey he came across strong hadith, weak hadith, true hadith and fake hadith. now his doubting of some hadith that may have been true while his lack of evidence said otherwise does not consitute a punishment because how else would he determine which hadith was correct and which was not unless he investigated them all and doubted many, if i remember correctly he memorised about 250 thousand ahadith and the Sahih Bukhari collection only has a few thousand in it. so that tells alot about investigation and doubt. ofcourse he might have doubted some hadith that spoke/described Allah and his mesenger but that doesn't equal to doubting the existence of Allah, these are 2 examples where the latter streches all they way to disbelief unlike the other wich was as a result of gaining knowledge.

doubting that Allah is the real god and Muhamed the true mesenger equals disbelief and if one dies in this state of disbelief without fully accepting the islamic Declaration of Faith then Allah will not forgive such a person.

i hope my answer is clear.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

eselam,

doubting that Allah is the real god and Muhamed the true mesenger equals disbelief and if one dies in this state of disbelief without fully accepting the islamic Declaration of Faith then Allah will not forgive such a person.

Just a simple question: is it possible for a righteous, thoughtful, sincere person, using reason and weighing the evidence, to doubt that "Allah is the real god and Muhammad the true messenger"? Has any sincere, thoughtful person ever doubted this statement, in this history of the world?

 

[Bismillah]

Yes the poster is Muslim and asking about Abrahamic faith. Notice I am asking about the God of Abrahamic faith, according to Muslims (like you and Sahar). I'm not changing the topic. Why not just answer simple questions instead of avoiding them?

I am using the definition of doubt as used in my faith, to the best of my knowledge.

Considering a proposition questionable = wavering in your faith? So physicists who consider string theory questionable, are simply wavering in their faith in string theory? A person who considers American foreign policy questionable, is merely wavering in their faith in American foreign policy? Clearly these are two separate things.

Save the analogies. Questioning is putting forth a question. When one puts forth a question to their faith to be answered that is literally wavering in Iman.

But you don't actually have to arrive at this interpretation if your beliefs are due to lack of evidence (as you said two posts ago) correct?

Everyone must make a decision, based on evidence, either in this world or the hereafter. Those who reject do so not because of a lack of evidence.

 

[Sahar]

doubting that Allah is the real god and Muhamed the true mesenger equals disbelief and if one dies in this state of disbelief without fully accepting the islamic Declaration of Faith then Allah will not forgive such a person.

i hope my answer is clear.

Yes eselam, it's clear. Except some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[Sahar]

to clear some things out:

1. those who sencirely search for the truth, faith wise, will be guided to it, here is evidence for it

[youtube]CcxzIE4xxrI[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcxzIE4xxrI

Great video, Subhan Allah! Amazing! Thank you eselam for sharing

 

[Gharib]

eselam,
Just a simple question: is it possible for a righteous, thoughtful, sincere person, using reason and weighing the evidence, to doubt that "Allah is the real god and Muhammad the true messenger"? Has any sincere, thoughtful person ever doubted this statement, in this history of the world?

someone that has strong faith does not come to a point where he doubts Allah and his Mesenger, however someone who has weak faith and little knowledge does have such doubts. those doubts will either increase him in faith as a result of investigation into what he finds doubtful and believe in Allah more or he will end up disbelieving.

and doubt in islam is a result of the devil and we are encouraged to not pay attention to it as i have mentioned in my earlier posts, not just when it comes to doubting Allah or other religious matters, but other matters also such a a husband or wife doubting the faithfulness of their partner etc, they are all from the devil.

i hope i have answered your question.

 

[McBell]

someone that has strong faith does not come to a point where he doubts Allah and his Mesenger, however someone who has weak faith and little knowledge does have such doubts. those doubts will either increase him in faith as a result of investigation into what he finds doubtful and believe in Allah more or he will end up disbelieving.

and doubt in islam is a result of the devil and we are encouraged to not pay attention to it as i have mentioned in my earlier posts, not just when it comes to doubting Allah or other religious matters, but other matters also such a a husband or wife doubting the faithfulness of their partner etc, they are all from the devil.

i hope i have answered your question.

Makes a person wonder what it is that Allah is so afraid of...

 

[Gharib]

Makes a person wonder what it is that Allah is so afraid of...

Allah fears nothing, if you'd like to discuss something then you are welcome, if not then thats ok.

 

[McBell]

Allah fears nothing, if you'd like to discuss something then you are welcome, if not then thats ok.

If Allah truly fears nothing then why all the drama over doubt?

 

[Gharib]

If Allah truly fears nothing then why all the drama over doubt?

i'd like to give you an example that contains the same message/answer.

if you start dealing/trafficking drugs and your dad is constantly on your back to stop doing it, does he now fear that something will happen to him or does he fear that something will happen to you and therefore he is asking you to stop dealing?

 

[McBell]

i'd like to give you an example that contains the same message/answer.

if you start dealing/trafficking drugs and your dad is constantly on your back to stop doing it, does he now fear that something will happen to him or does he fear that something will happen to you and therefore he is asking you to stop dealing?

Most likely both.
And the damage it causes to all those around.

now perhaps you can explain how your little scenario relates to why an all knowing all powerful being, who supposedly honours truth and honesty would not understand/allow/forgive/accept doubt.

Or perhaps I have gotten some of Allah's attributes wrong?

I am also at a complete loss as to what harm is being done by doubting Allah.
Based upon what you posted, Muslims are not supposed to doubt anything.
I wonder why Allah, in all his knowledge and wisdom would tell Muslims to fall for every single scam and con that exists?
I mean, if Muslims are not allowed to doubt anything at all...

 

[Gharib]

Most likely both.
And the damage it causes to all those around.

now perhaps you can explain how your little scenario relates to why an all knowing all powerful being, who supposedly honours truth and honesty would not understand/allow/forgive/accept doubt.

Or perhaps I have gotten some of Allah's attributes wrong?

i stated earlier that doubt will either increase one in faith as a result of investigation, or it will lead to disbelief and since one of the 2 outcomes is a great sin, the greates in islamic perspective, then it is something that is discouraged since you do not know if you will end up disbelieving or increase your faith. if one turns to disbelief then his home is hell, an everlasting punishment. Allah does not forgive those who associate partners to him, so he is giving a warning. whether you disbelieve or not makes no difference to Allah, if it did then why would he allow disbelievers to live on earth?

He also does forgive doubt, he just doesn't forgive one who dies in a state of disbelief, in one of my earlier posts i made an example of Imam Bukhari and his quest to find separate the true Ahadith from the fake ones, i will repost that once more for you.

 

[Gharib]

From Post #104

Doubting and investigation come in different ways and forms so it depends on the kind of doubt one has. example, Imam Bukhari took on the journey to collect the Ahadith (sayings) of Muhamed salallahu alayhi we salam. in his journey he came across strong hadith, weak hadith, true hadith and fake hadith. now his doubting of some hadith that may have been true while his lack of evidence said otherwise does not consitute a punishment because how else would he determine which hadith was correct and which was not unless he investigated them all and doubted many, if i remember correctly he memorised about 250 thousand ahadith and the Sahih Bukhari collection only has a few thousand in it. so that tells alot about investigation and doubt. ofcourse he might have doubted some hadith that spoke/described Allah and his mesenger but that doesn't equal to doubting the existence of Allah, these are 2 examples where the latter streches all they way to disbelief unlike the other wich was as a result of gaining knowledge.

doubting that Allah is the real god and Muhamed the true mesenger equals disbelief and if one dies in this state of disbelief without fully accepting the islamic Declaration of Faith then Allah will not forgive such a person.

 

[McBell]

i stated earlier that doubt will either increase one in faith as a result of investigation, or it will lead to disbelief and since one of the 2 outcomes is a great sin, the greates in islamic perspective, then it is something that is discouraged since you do not know if you will end up disbelieving or increase your faith. if one turns to disbelief then his home is hell, an everlasting punishment. Allah does not forgive those who associate partners to him, so he is giving a warning. whether you disbelieve or not makes no difference to Allah, if it did then why would he allow disbelievers to live on earth?

He also does forgive doubt, he just doesn't forgive one who dies in a state of disbelief, in one of my earlier posts i made an example of Imam Bukhari and his quest to find separate the true Ahadith from the fake ones, i will repost that once more for you.

And I will say it again:

Makes a person wonder what it is that Allah is so afraid of...
​

Actually, I now needs to amend that to:

Why is Allah so afraid of those who do not believe in Allah?
​

 

[Gharib]

there are different kinds of doubt, throught out this thread i am talking about the kind of doubt that islam discourages one to pay attention to.

 

[McBell]

there are different kinds of doubt, throught out this thread i am talking about the kind of doubt that islam discourages one to pay attention to.

I agree there are different types of doubt.
I tend to disagree with the slippery slope argument you have presented, but that is not what I am inquiring about.

 

[Gharib]

And I will say it again:

Makes a person wonder what it is that Allah is so afraid of...
​

Actually, I now needs to amend that to:

Why is Allah so afraid of those who do not believe in Allah?
​

i too must say again, Allah does not fear anything. he is our creator has more love for us than a mother for her child, and he wants whats best for us ie paradise. so he is advising/giving guidance to us. and i must also say this again those that do not believe in Allah do not make him any less of a god and those that believe in him do not make him any more of a god.

i hope this is clear.