Believers: Does God forgive investigation and doubt?

[TJ73]

This question may be responded to by anyone, of course, but I am most interested in the theist response, and even more so, from an Abrahamic perspective.

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

Before anyone starts bashing me too hard, please allow a few moments for me to get my armor suit on,thanx :rainbow1:

 

[asketikos]

I believe yes, if it comes from a sincere and true doubt, questioning. Many great saints and mystics have experienced doubt, and investigation about their faith.

If anything it is a test of faith, and it should only grow stronger.

 

[Tarheeler]

I think we're expected to investigate always and have doubt occasionally.

Judaism typically holds that when it is said the we were made in His image, it is our ability to think, make decisions, and judge right from wrong that is attributed to Him.

I think that having that ability and refusing to use it would be the action that might be unforgivable.

 

[dmgdnooc]

My thought, read Job, TJ.
He gave God such a hard time, questioning and doubting the goodness of God's intentions and motives and accusing God of all manner of injustice and indifference to pains, that one can only conclude that God has a very thick skin when it comes to personal criticism.
Much thicker than Job's anyway.

But Job was led to a resolution and a restoration inspite of himself.
He is an excellent object lesson to we who, through 'frustration and fear', are led to questions, and even accusations, directed to God.

 

[Riverwolf]

I should hope so. Heck, I'd hope God would encourage such doubt in order to have the motivation to seek the truth more objectively.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It's a great question, TJ73. Although I am not a theist, I hope you don't mind if I contribute the following for your consideration, from the Qur'an:

[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
​

[3.91] Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.
​

[2.161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

[ 18.102] ... Surely We have prepared hell for the entertainment of the unbelievers.

[ 76.4] Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.

[ 35.34] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.

[ 46.34] And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: Is it not true? They shall say: Aye! by our Lord! He will say: Then taste the punishment, because you disbelieved.

[ 74.31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those whodisbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.
​

Although most sane, compassionate human beings (like yourself) would forgive investigation and doubt as part of being human, and part of thinking and part of living an enlightened life, the Qur'an insists that God is merciless in this regard. Those who die as disbelievers, even if they disbelieved due to such harmless flaws as sincere investigation and honest doubt, will be tormented forever by such tortures as fire, shackles, drinking boiling water, etc. The Qur'an even suggests that God causes some people to doubt the authenticity of the Holy Qur'an, and then he sends them to hell.

It is possible to be reasonable, even if you are not very forgiving, but the God described by the Qur'an is neither. A perfect, wise, merciful God should not be less forgiving and less rational than the best human beings, unless of course the Qur'an is man-made, and so the God it describes has some of the defects of its human authors (as well as some of the noble traits of its human authors).

 

[TJ73]

Thanks for these responses. I think another part of my problem and were I get frustrated is the responsibilities of faith. I always fail. I fail and then feel like poo. I can not even wrap my head around people that claim to be able to follow all the things dictated without fail or very little fail and then when they do, just pick up and get back on track. And they love it, and i don't and it makes me doubt myself. I can recognize the reasons and the goodness, but i really struggle.

 

[TJ73]

It's a great question, TJ73. Although I am not a theist, I hope you don't mind if I contribute the following for your consideration, from the Qur'an:

[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
​

[3.91] Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.
​

[2.161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

[ 18.102] ... Surely We have prepared hell for the entertainment of the unbelievers.

[ 76.4] Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.

[ 35.34] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.

[ 46.34] And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: Is it not true? They shall say: Aye! by our Lord! He will say: Then taste the punishment, because you disbelieved.

[ 74.31] And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those whodisbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.
​

Although most sane, compassionate human beings (like yourself) would forgive investigation and doubt as part of being human, and part of thinking and part of living an enlightened life, the Qur'an insists that God is merciless in this regard. Those who die as disbelievers, even if they disbelieved due to such harmless flaws as sincere investigation and honest doubt, will be tormented forever by such tortures as fire, shackles, drinking boiling water, etc. The Qur'an even suggests that God causes some people to doubt the authenticity of the Holy Qur'an, and then he sends them to hell.

It is possible to be reasonable, even if you are not very forgiving, but the God described by the Qur'an is neither. A perfect, wise, merciful God should not be less forgiving and less rational than the best human beings, unless of course the Qur'an is man-made, and so the God it describes has some of the defects of its human authors (as well as some of the noble traits of its human authors).

I am not an unbeliever, but I'll tell you, this is similar to the kind of stuff I was taught in Church that lead me away from it. I wish it wasn't so hard

 

[Mr Spinkles]

TJ73, have you ever considered that doubts might be caused by defects in the religion, rather than any flaws in yourself?

I used to feel weak in my faith as a Christian, and then I felt like poo, too. But then I realized that Christianity is flawed, not me. It is flawed because it demands that I shackle my intellect, and always believe no matter what -- something which I cannot do, and something which would be foolish to do, even if I were capable.

I discovered that outside of religion, there is something called science. And there is something called philosophy, and law, and politics. And in these subjects, questioning and doubting, and being open to changing your mind and listening to lots of different ideas, are considered good things. And there are many books on these subjects, which are far more profound than the Bible, and yet far more humble than the Bible in their claims to authority and certainty. For example there are books written by physicists like Carl Sagan. There are ideas in these books, about the nature of the cosmos, about the purpose of our species and its relationship to the universe, that are very compelling and hopeful and profound. But there is no bullying to make you accept it, no name-calling of the "disbelievers" and how terrible they are for questioning. You only have to consider their evidence, and their ideas, and enjoy the uniquely human experience of thinking and wondering and imagining. These books will not make you feel bad simply because you have a curious and open mind.

And yet the Bible, and as far as I can see the Qur'an too, make people feel bad for investigating and doubting. The shame is not on them, instead the shame is on those books, and their unenlightened human authors, for making people feel this way. Imagine if I wrote a book that makes people feel bad for breathing. We were created with both lungs and brains, and using them is part of the joy of being alive.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I am not an unbeliever, but I'll tell you, this is similar to the kind of stuff I was taught in Church that lead me away from it. I wish it wasn't so hard

Think about it though. What exactly is so hard? It's hard to believe something which is unreasonable. This was hard for me, too. But why should this pose any problem? Contrary to the bullying and cajoling we find in the Abrahamic scriptures, we do not have to believe all of it.

The reason this is hard for you, i.m.o., is because the Abrahamic religions have convinced you, incorrectly, that you have to believe in it all, and there is something wrong with you if you don't believe. Is there something wrong with me if I do not believe in Hinduism? Or Marxism? Or the philosophy of Bertrand Russel? Or am I flawed because I am unable to accept, with total certainty, *every* sentence ever written by Bertrand Russel? Not at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Only the Abrahamic faiths, as far as I know, actually accuse people of the worst sin if they lack total commitment and certainty. That is the problem. Not you!

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Hey TJ! I think logically speaking, God must want us to think critically about the things we are taught and to try and sort out truth from untruth. I mean, that's what this life is all about! If we just believed everything we were taught... well, I think that would cause some serious issues. Do you believe that God is good? Do you believe that he wants truth to prevail? Then what would he have against a sincere desire to know what is true, and what is made up? How can we honestly say that we believe something, if we have no reason for what we believe other than that we have never dared question it? What kind of a reason is that? Truth in the end, must stand up to scrutiny and questioning. We can only discover it through earnest and honest seeking, questioning, and experimenting. I would say that not only does God allow for a little questioning, wondering, doubting, and seeking, he requires it. If we ever want to come to a knowledge of the true nature of God, we have to be willing to dig.

 

[LuisDantas]

Things may seem crystal clear and then poof! you discover something that doesn't mesh and you question. I have gone through this on and off through out my time as a theist and I say theist, not Muslim because I was not always Muslim.

I have to be true to my intellect and will never be able to stop thinking and learning and investigating, it's my nature. It does not bring me to dis-belief, but it does often lead to frustration and fear.

All in all, do you, yourself believe God is cool with that ?

It will sound arrogant, particularly coming from a non-theist kafir that never considered himself an Abrahamist such as me... but my honest answer is that he would better be. A God that lacks moral integrity is not worth giving any attention to.

 

[TJ73]

I feel you, Sprinks. I have never ever strayed away from science and have read some philosophy. I don't have hard time rectifying knowledge from science and the personal experience of faith.
I am scared of disbelief. and I see so much value in what is taught by religion. I can understand how it could be properly applied although it rarely seems it is. most of my issue is with other believers and the lack of acceptance of anyone's doubts or questioning. And I have a fear of hell. And I have a fear of admitting all of this too.

 

[dmgdnooc]

Thanks for these responses. I think another part of my problem and were I get frustrated is the responsibilities of faith. I always fail. I fail and then feel like poo. I can not even wrap my head around people that claim to be able to follow all the things dictated without fail or very little fail and then when they do, just pick up and get back on track. And they love it, and i don't and it makes me doubt myself. I can recognize the reasons and the goodness, but i really struggle.

The King David was a flawed human being and sinned greatly.
Yet he was a man who reached out for compassion and goodness in repentance towards, and with a genuine affection for, his God.
And thereby he touched God's own heart and was raised above all his fellows and given precious promises that sustained him in terrible hardships.
　
When you, I, reach out with the heart we will touch God's heart also.
Then we will see, if only for a moment, that God's motivation is love and is expressed in compassion for, and forgiveness of, our weaknesses.
And we will understand that His interest is directed towards what is in our hearts; how much we are like Him; and not towards our differences or failings.
　
God's condemnation falls only on those who have already condemned themselves.
Self-condemnation is the enemy, not our sins.
Because self-condemnation makes us fearful of God, our Father, and convinces us to hide ourselves from Him.
And it does so at the very time when we need Him most, when we have sinned.
　
You, I, are not better than David, though our sins be much less.
Think about it, is He not the Compassionate, the Merciful?

 

[TJ73]

Hey TJ! I think logically speaking, God must want us to think critically about the things we are taught and to try and sort out truth from untruth. I mean, that's what this life is all about! If we just believed everything we were taught... well, I think that would cause some serious issues. Do you believe that God is good? Do you believe that he wants truth to prevail? Then what would he have against a sincere desire to know what is true, and what is made up? How can we honestly say that we believe something, if we have no reason for what we believe other than that we have never dared question it? What kind of a reason is that? Truth in the end, must stand up to scrutiny and questioning. We can only discover it through earnest and honest seeking, questioning, and experimenting. I would say that not only does God allow for a little questioning, wondering, doubting, and seeking, he requires it. If we ever want to come to a knowledge of the true nature of God, we have to be willing to dig.

Yes, I see what you're saying. Now here's another problem i have, I can't seem to find a lot of fault with any faith. When viewed from a perspective of the adherents and placed in a context of developing a cohesive group that can experience God and live together, I see great qualities in most faiths, I also see some similarities. I guess i have mostly subscribed to the concept of God and the experience of such is like a vast lake: the water may have a different taste and color along it's different shores but it is still the same body of water.

I envy people that have it clear to them weather atheist or believer, they are completely comfortable in being that and can live up to the responsibilities imparted on them as one of that view.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I feel you, Sprinks. I have never ever strayed away from science and have read some philosophy. I don't have hard time rectifying knowledge from science and the personal experience of faith.
I am scared of disbelief. and I see so much value in what is taught by religion. I can understand how it could be properly applied although it rarely seems it is. most of my issue is with other believers and the lack of acceptance of anyone's doubts or questioning. And I have a fear of hell. And I have a fear of admitting all of this too.

I admire your courage for admitting it all, and I sympathize with your feelings, as I experienced some of those feelings as well.

Are you scared of disbelief, because then you feel like you will not have anything to "hold on to", so you will be utterly lost and uncertain? If that's how you feel I think you need to realize that not believing in Islam doesn't mean you don't believe in *anything*. I believe in things. Democracy, for example. Family. Right and wrong. Appreciating the little things in life instead of worrying about things I can't control.

Like you, I also see so much value in some of the things taught by religion. But I see very little value in some other things, and I think you do, too. Why not embrace the good and reject the bad, wherever you find it?

You say you have a problem not with religion, but with believers who do not accept doubts or questioning. But, TJ73, your problem is indeed with religion. Abrahamic religion in general, and especially Islam, does not accept doubts or questioning. It's right there in the Qur'an. You have a problem with the Qur'an itself, and so do I, and so should all thinking, compassionate people.

 

[Riverwolf]

I admire your courage for admitting it all, and I sympathize with your feelings, as I experienced some of those feelings as well.

Are you scared of disbelief, because then you feel like you will not have anything to "hold on to", so you will be utterly lost and uncertain? If that's how you feel I think you need to realize that not believing in Islam doesn't mean you don't believe in *anything*. I believe in things. Democracy, for example. Family. Right and wrong. Appreciating the little things in life instead of worrying about things I can't control.

Like you, I also see so much value in some of the things taught by religion. But I see very little value in some other things, and I think you do, too. Why not embrace the good and reject the bad, wherever you find it?

You say you have a problem not with religion, but with believers who do not accept doubts or questioning. But, TJ73, your problem is indeed with religion. Abrahamic religion in general, and especially Islam, does not accept doubts or questioning. It's right there in the Qur'an. You have a problem with the Qur'an itself, and so do I, and so should all thinking, compassionate people.

Just FYI, having problems with pieces isn't the same as having problems with the whole.

I have some problems with parts of Hindu Scriptures, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with the Scripture in question as a whole.

The way I approach Scripture is that they have some kind of thesis; a final teaching, as it were, and THAT is the most important part; you can cut all other parts out, and leaving that one teaching will be sufficient to keep the religion around. Sometimes, there are passages in the Scripture that can contradict the final teaching. When that happens(and I've yet to come across a single Scripture that didn't have at least small contradictions), the final teaching takes precedence. Sometimes, it's explicit (such as the Golden Rule in the Sermon on the Mount), and sometimes, as it often is in Hindu Scriptures, it's harder to find and there's disagreement as to what it is.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Yes, I see what you're saying. Now here's another problem i have, I can't seem to find a lot of fault with any faith. When viewed from a perspective of the adherents and placed in a context of developing a cohesive group that can experience God and live together, I see great qualities in most faiths, I also see some similarities. I guess i have mostly subscribed to the concept of God and the experience of such is like a vast lake: the water may have a different taste and color along it's different shores but it is still the same body of water.

I envy people that have it clear to them weather atheist or believer, they are completely comfortable in being that and can live up to the responsibilities imparted on them as one of that view.

I like the lake analogy. I have never heard it before. But yeah, I see what you are saying. There is truth in just about every religion. I think that people who are seeking truth will find it, whatever culture or religion they may belong to.

I believe that the key to gaining more light and understanding is simply to apply that which we have already been given. And to never become complacent about things. Never feel like "I've got all I need." The minute you think you know everything, you close off any possibility of learning and growing and start sliding backward.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, I see what you're saying. Now here's another problem i have, I can't seem to find a lot of fault with any faith. When viewed from a perspective of the adherents and placed in a context of developing a cohesive group that can experience God and live together, I see great qualities in most faiths, I also see some similarities. I guess i have mostly subscribed to the concept of God and the experience of such is like a vast lake: the water may have a different taste and color along it's different shores but it is still the same body of water.

I envy people that have it clear to them weather atheist or believer, they are completely comfortable in being that and can live up to the responsibilities imparted on them as one of that view.

I like the lake analogy. I have never heard it before. But yeah, I see what you are saying. There is truth in just about every religion. I think that people who are seeking truth will find it, whatever culture or religion they may belong to.

I believe that the key to gaining more light and understanding is simply to apply that which we have already been given. And to never become complacent about things. Never feel like "I've got all I need." The minute you think you know everything, you close off any possibility of learning and growing and start sliding backward.

Both of these are very wise words, indeed.

I, too, like that lake analogy.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Thanks for these responses. I think another part of my problem and were I get frustrated is the responsibilities of faith. I always fail. I fail and then feel like poo. I can not even wrap my head around people that claim to be able to follow all the things dictated without fail or very little fail and then when they do, just pick up and get back on track. And they love it, and i don't and it makes me doubt myself. I can recognize the reasons and the goodness, but i really struggle.

Hmm... I can sympathize with that. Maybe you just have too high of expectations. Maybe you will never be able to please yourself. Maybe you need to be more realistic, cut yourself some slack. That's what a lot of people would say.

I wouldn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are struggling with the discrepancies between what you believe and how you live. Is that right? I struggle with the same problem. I know that I am capable of living a much more moral and upright life. It's not that I'm a bad person. It's just that I could be so much MORE of a person. The way I see it, if I can be such and such kind of person, why not? If I can be good person, why not? If I can be filled with compassion, why not? If I can be a person that changes the world in a positive way, why not? And I know I have the tools to do this. Nothing short will ever satisfy me. What advice would you give me?