Believers should not feel intimidated by so called experts on religion

[loverofhumanity]

Its pretty clear that the long ending was added later. Quran is not needed for that.

So if Effendi is not sure about the Bible, how come you said that all scriptures are gods word?

I really cant understand.

The Word of God is in all scriptures but not every word can be said to be exactly what the Prophet said. Only from the Quran onwards is ‘each and every Word’ the Word of God. Before the Quran, in substance the other scriptures are also the Word of God but not authenticated. Some were passed down orally, some written down after the passing of the Prophet and some recorded hundreds of years later.

In these cases we can only accept as the Word of God that which agrees with the authenticated scriptures we have.

Another example. In 1Samuel 15 God supposedly tells Saul to slaughter all the men women, children and babies. Author? Unknown. It was written well after Samuel died. How can we accept God would order genocide? . Was this a revelation from God? The Quran and Baha’i scriptures contradict this completely. God is just but deplores murder. So the story is not the Word of God and recorded well after the event.

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words. (Effendi)

In a Bible, Abdul-Baha wrote these words.

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet. (Effendi)

It’s not black and white so there is flexibility with this matter. If I didn’t explain it clearly that’s my mistake. Scriptures ‘before’ the Quran can be said to be the unauthenticated Word of God ‘in essence’ but only from the Quran onwards can scripture be considered the exact Words revealed by God as these were recorded in the lifetime of the Prophet and verified.

It’s the same with Hadiths. The Quran says Muhammad is an example to humanity. But if a hadith portrays Him negatively it is false and incorrect because the authoritative texts trumps unauthentic texts.

 

[stvdv]

there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

Great OP, very true, and essential to spread this message.

Too long certain Religions spread their gospel "My way is the ONLY Highway". It's the highest time they get down of their high horse AND admit they have been wrong all these 1000+ years

But admitting they have been wrong, might take another 1000+ years, as it falls in the category "Spiritual ego/arrogance".

Hindu Scriptures have declared that this is impossible to cure (even God can't). And probably there are 4 billion+ still having this mindset

 

[stvdv]

A religious person who hold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion...

Very True.

Good choice of words "socalled experts", as they obviously don't have a clue about the essence of Spiritality

An expert has an opinion, thats all.
Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone

I tried giving good arguments. But they are too arrogant to "hear". So I gave up, and avoid them

They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

Yes, it's hilarious how they show off their ignorance, but it's in a (dualistic) way too bad how much pain hurt they create in others in the process.

But probably that is all part of maya's way of teaching us to become wise and be detached to this illusion AND focus on Truth

 

[firedragon]

Another example. In 1Samuel 15 God supposedly tells Saul to slaughter all the men women, children and babies. Author? Unknown. It was written well after Samuel died. How can we accept God would order genocide?

Okay. Lets say Samuel was written way later. DO you think the other books in the Tanakh were written at the time of the said prophet?

Based on what?

It’s the same with Hadiths. The Quran says Muhammad is an example to humanity. But if a hadith portrays Him negatively it is false and incorrect because the authoritative texts trumps unauthentic texts.

So you have studied the ahadith too in depth?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Great OP, very true, and essential to spread this message.

Too long certain Religions spread their gospel "My way is the ONLY Highway". It's the highest time they get down of their high horse AND admit they have been wrong all these 1000+ years

But admitting they have been wrong, might take another 1000+ years, as it falls in the category "Spiritual ego/arrogance".

Hindu Scriptures have declared that this is impossible to cure (even God can't). And probably there are 4 billion+ still having this mindset

I remember a while ago some Christians knocked on my door to teach me their Faith. I’m always happy to welcome in my home people of all religions so I invited them in for refreshments but they declined then I suggested we say some prayers together and this was their reply which really saddened me.

They said their elders told them not to mix with people from other religions because of the risk of being spiritually infected. That really hurt me deep down as I feel all are as brothers and sisters.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay. Lets say Samuel was written way later. DO you think the other books in the Tanakh were written at the time of the said prophet?

Based on what?

So you have studied the ahadith too in depth?

Many books were written much later. So again we rely on authenticated scriptures to verify their validity. In the case of the Books of Moses we Baha’is have this guidance.

The Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(Baha’u’llah)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.

Hadiths.

When or if a Prophet quotes a hadith in a Holy Book, it becomes part of the text, in other words, the Word of God. Hadiths which are not quoted by the Prophet have no authoritative status. Hadiths which contradict the Quran are false and incorrect.

In Islam whether Sunni or Shiah, only the Quran is the Word of God, nothing else.

 

[stvdv]

I remember a while ago some Christians knocked on my door to teach me their Faith. I’m always happy to welcome in my home people of all religions so I invited them in for refreshments but they declined then I suggested we say some prayers together and this was their reply which really saddened me.

They said their elders told them not to mix with people from other religions because of the risk of being spiritually infected. That really hurt me deep down as I feel all are as brothers and sisters.

Thanks for sharing

That (hurting others) is indeed the result of such a mindset. They really destroy Love, Truth and Peace, believing they follow God's Command, but as you said they just follow the Command of their elders

They forget the Greatest Commandment "Love".

 

[firedragon]

Many books were written much later. So again we rely on authenticated scriptures to verify their validity. In the case of the Books of Moses we Baha’is have this guidance.

The Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(Baha’u’llah)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.

Hadiths.

When or if a Prophet quotes a hadith in a Holy Book, it becomes part of the text, in other words, the Word of God. Hadiths which are not quoted by the Prophet have no authoritative status. Hadiths which contradict the Quran are false and incorrect.

In Islam whether Sunni or Shiah, only the Quran is the Word of God, nothing else.

There is no evidence to attribute the Pentateuch to Moses or his time. Quran doesnt say that either. Qur'an does not even say the Torah was written by Moses or if it was revealed to him. Nowhere.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There is no evidence to attribute the Pentateuch to Moses or his time. Quran doesnt say that either. Qur'an does not even say the Torah was written by Moses or if it was revealed to him. Nowhere.

2:87

And indeed We gave unto Moses the Book and caused a succession of messengers to follow him.


Sura 5:46

And in their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him, and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is a guidance and a light, confirming the Torah that had come before him, as a guidance and an exhortation to the reverent.

 

[firedragon]

2:87

And indeed We gave unto Moses the Book and caused a succession of messengers to follow him.


Sura 5:46

And in their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him, and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is a guidance and a light, confirming the Torah that had come before him, as a guidance and an exhortation to the reverent.

Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say the Thaurath was given to Moses. Nowhere.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say the Thaurath was given to Moses. Nowhere.

32:23

And indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah)]. So be not you in doubt of meeting him [i.e.when you met Musa (Moses) during the night of AlIsra' and AlMi'raj over the heavens]. And We made it [the Taurat (Torah)] a guide to the Children of Israel.

 

[firedragon]

32:23

And indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah)]. So be not you in doubt of meeting him [i.e.when you met Musa (Moses) during the night of AlIsra' and AlMi'raj over the heavens]. And We made it [the Taurat (Torah)] a guide to the Children of Israel.

It doesnt say Thaurath.

I will tell you again. Nowhere in the Quran does it say the Thaurath was given to Moses. Someone has inserted things within brackets.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I remember a while ago some Christians knocked on my door to teach me their Faith. I’m always happy to welcome in my home people of all religions so I invited them in for refreshments but they declined then I suggested we say some prayers together and this was their reply which really saddened me.

They said their elders told them not to mix with people from other religions because of the risk of being spiritually infected. That really hurt me deep down as I feel all are as brothers and sisters.

Spiritually infected? That’s just weird, and sounds a bit cult-like tbh.

 

[firedragon]

32:23

And indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah)]. So be not you in doubt of meeting him [i.e.when you met Musa (Moses) during the night of AlIsra' and AlMi'raj over the heavens]. And We made it [the Taurat (Torah)] a guide to the Children of Israel.

I ask this out of curiosity. Can you tell me why earlier you cut and pasted Yusuf Ali translation, there was no association between Moses and the Thaurath. But now you are pasting a Mohsin Khan translation because within brackets he has included words that are not there in the Qur'an.

Why is that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It doesnt say Thaurath.

I will tell you again. Nowhere in the Quran does it say the Thaurath was given to Moses. Someone has inserted things within brackets.

The ‘Book’ given Moses was the Torah.

2:87

And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Spiritually infected? That’s just weird, and sounds a bit cult-like tbh.

They were nice people but they saw me as a threat.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I ask this out of curiosity. Can you tell me why earlier you cut and pasted Yusuf Ali translation, there was no association between Moses and the Thaurath. But now you are pasting a Mohsin Khan translation because within brackets he has included words that are not there in the Qur'an.

Why is that?

Firstly, there are other translations where Torah is not in brackets.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Torah was given to Moses, that the ‘Book’ mentioned was the Torah. In many other translations it says ‘scripture’.

 

[firedragon]

The ‘Book’ given Moses was the Torah.

2:87

And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers.

False. It says we gave Musa the Kithab. Doesnt say Torah. It says "Moosal Kithab". I thought you studied the Quran in depth. In depth means in depth. Not from a website that has inferences that you have no clue of. At least read the transliteration in the website you are cutting and pasting this from.

Tell. Since you have studied the Qur'an "In Depth", what are "Suhufi Ibrahima Wa moosa"?

What are these revelations?

Firstly, there are other translations where Torah is not in brackets.

Yeah. But you only picked the ones that are very helpful.

And I say again, there is no verse in the Qur'an that says the Taurath was given to Musa. Nowhere.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Perhaps the real test comes after the experience. Having become aware of His presence, do we put God at the centre of our lives, or do we carry on exactly as before? In my case, this was made easy for me, since carrying on as before would have spelled disaster.

You make it SOUND as though I should automatically PRESUME that my "experience" was due to the presence OF God? I feel that would be taking being "presumptive" to an entirely different level, than what it was intended to mean.

ALL I can say, is that that "experience" definitely got my attention, and served to get me OUT of the predicament I was in at the time. Call it providence, call it coincidence, call it chance, call it what you'd like, but I see absolutely NO reason to be calling it "GOD".

 

[RestlessSoul]

You make it SOUND as though I should automatically PRESUME that my "experience" was due to the presence OF God? I feel that would be taking being "presumptive" to an entirely different level, than what it was intended to mean.

ALL I can say, is that that "experience" definitely got my attention, and served to get me OUT of the predicament I was in at the time. Call it providence, call it coincidence, call it chance, call it what you'd like, but I see absolutely NO reason to be calling it "GOD".

Well it’s your experience, so I guess it’s up to you to interpret it for yourself.