Believers should not feel intimidated by so called experts on religion

[ACEofALLaces]

There is a cure for all bad conditions except one.
..and that is death.

One of the best prayers is "Oh Lord, give us the good in this llfe and the next, and save us from the fire of hell" Amen.

Ok, here I go with my questions.........Hell as best as I can ascertain it to be, is really nothing other than the abode of the dead....just another word in place of Sheole, or Hades. That being the case, why would there be a need for any kind of FIRE there?
It was my understanding years ago that the concept of a fiery "hell" came about as Jesus made reference to the forever burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.....which Jesus referred to as the "hellfires".

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Yes, God answers prayers. Though often, not in the way we might ask or expect.

Ok, then HOW would a person actually KNOW that it actually WAS a response from God. It's too easy to declare that God answers prayer, with the kind of statement you just came up with, if whatever we might perceive AS an answer, cannot be determined one way or the other?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..why would there be a need for any kind of FIRE there?

Why would there be a need to be any kind of garden in paradise?
I think we can understand that burning in a fire is extremely uncomfortable.
Descriptions of heaven and hell are of states of being. They do not have to be literal.

I have seen what goes on in mental health units, and can imagine how uncomfortable it must be for one who screams and wails with torment.
Ouch !

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Why would there be a need to be any kind of garden in paradise?
I think we can understand that burning in a fire is extremely uncomfortable.
Descriptions of heaven and hell are of states of being. They do not have to be literal.

I have seen what goes on in mental health units, and can imagine how uncomfortable it must be for one who screams and wails with torment.
Ouch !

A person who feels the need to speculate in what ifs, has no real answers. So if human concepts of heaven and/or hell are nothing more than "states of being"...which I define as all being in ones own head, what IS there to be fearful OF....if it is just the "fear" that is implanted by over-enthusiastic preachers and televangelists?
And just MAYBE that is what those poor souls being housed in mental health units are actually experiencing? It might SEEM real to them, but it ISN'T.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In spiritual practice and lifestyle one does not become "experts" its a word not used (in sufism anyway)

You can call it whatever you wish. It means the same, from where I'm sitting.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You can call it whatever you wish. It means the same, from where I'm sitting.

You are free to have your view, it does not change my belief or way of seeing it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not only in Islam sis. Its inbred in all humans.

Not in me.
If anything, I feel like it's inbred into me not to believe.

With theists, it often looks like "believe first, ask questions later (if it is permitted - likely it isn't..not really anyway)"

I'm more of a "ask questions first, believe maybe later - depending on the quality of the answers" kind of guy.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Wisdom, due the practice of the teaching one aquire spiritual wisdom.

Wisdom is a concept.
An expert is a person, a thinking agent with good working knowledge of some subject.

These are not talking about the same thing.

An expert has wisdom.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Wisdom is a concept.
An expert is a person, a thinking agent with good working knowledge of some subject.

These are not talking about the same thing.

An expert has wisdom.

And?

You don't believe in spiritual wisdom.
I do.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Not in me.
If anything, I feel like it's inbred into me not to believe.

With theists, it often looks like "believe first, ask questions later (if it is permitted - likely it isn't..not really anyway)"

I'm more of a "ask questions first, believe maybe later - depending on the quality of the answers" kind of guy.

Seriously?.....you feel like your not believing is something genetic, innate, "inherited" in some way?
I never was a theist by strict definition, so I cannot really comment on that part....however, I WAS raised to question everything. That advice has served me quite well over the past 8 decades.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have seen what goes on in mental health units, and can imagine how uncomfortable it must be for one who screams and wails with torment.
Ouch !

Just a thought exercise, I'm curious.
Imagine you die today and you end up in paradise.

While you are there enjoying your eternal bliss, likely your parents, children,.. and/or other loved-ones are in hell eternally "screaming and wailing with torment".

Knowing that that is happening to them for eternity, how much would you be able to enjoy your eternal bliss?
Would you care? Would it keep you awake at night (figure of speech, likely eternals don't need to sleep)?

Or would you be all like "woehoee, this is aaaawesoooomeeee... sucks to be you guys down there - you deserve it, hahaha, ow my... this is so greeeeaaaat"?



I don't think I'ld be like that.
I think I'ld be consumed by guilt and empathy. I'ld be extremely uncomfortable and find myself in a serious ethical and moral crisis.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And?

It means that somewhere between those post, you completely lost track of what my original question was asking.

Nevermind.

You don't believe in spiritual wisdom.

Depends what you mean by it.
Because my default answer would be that I do.
But likely I don't mean by "spiritual" what you mean by "spiritual".

 

[Spirit of Light]

It means that somewhere between those post, you completely lost track of what my original question was asking.

Nevermind.



Depends what you mean by it.
Because my default answer would be that I do.
But likely I don't mean by "spiritual" what you mean by "spiritual".

"Spiritual wisdom" the teaching from God and the path back to God.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Just a thought exercise, I'm curious.
Imagine you die today and you end up in paradise.

While you are there enjoying your eternal bliss, likely your parents, children,.. and/or other loved-ones are in hell eternally "screaming and wailing with torment".

Knowing that that is happening to them for eternity, how much would you be able to enjoy your eternal bliss?
Would you care? Would it keep you awake at night (figure of speech, likely eternals don't need to sleep)?

Or would you be all like "woehoee, this is aaaawesoooomeeee... sucks to be you guys down there - you deserve it, hahaha, ow my... this is so greeeeaaaat"?



I don't think I'd be like that.
I think I'd be consumed by guilt and empathy. I'd be extremely uncomfortable and find myself in a serious ethical and moral crisis.

Hmmmmm, the way I see it, when you die, you are DEAD, and the DEAD are unaware of ANYTHING.
The rest is pure speculation and not something which can be addressed in any kind of intelligent sense. Fear-mongering, like most preachers and televangelists are quite adept at.....and that's all.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Seriously?.....you feel like your not believing is something genetic, innate, "inherited" in some way?

I was just using his own words in order to make a point by contrast.
In fact, I took his "inbred" to mean as a kind of value that's been "bred" into you during upbringing to the point that it becomes a natural reflex. And to that extent, I actually agree.

Many people grow up thinking superstition is a path to truth because the environment they grew up in treated it as such.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Hmmmmm, the way I see it, when you die, you are DEAD, and the DEAD are unaware of ANYTHING.
The rest is pure speculation and not something which can be addressed in any kind of intelligent sense. Fear-mongering, like most preachers and televangelists are quite adept at.....and that's all.

Relax.
I'm just asking the guy a hypothetical question about a hypothetical reality.

The point of the thought exercise is to question the morality of an eternal heaven / hell system as presented in islam.

Think about it. Believers are so full and enthusiastic of going to paradise. But how many of them have contemplated the idea that while are there, their own children might be experiencing eternal torment. How "happy" will they be then?

Imagine going on holiday to the Bahama's enjoying yourself and relaxing while you know that your daughter is being tortured in some cave somewhere. And that's only for 7 nights. Now, imagine this goes on for eternity.

I just wonder how a theist who believes in heaven and hell looks at that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"Spiritual wisdom" the teaching from God and the path back to God.

Myeah, that doesn't mean anything to me.

For me, "spiritual" is about personal growth and mental health.
About finding the courage to face your problems.
About finding the motivation, energy and discipline to work to achieve your dreams and fulfill your ambitions.
About finding the courage to be honest and true with yourself, to stand up for who you are.
About trying to let positive energy outweigh negative energy (or the more colloquial "make love, not war")

In short, to take care of yourself, your head, your state of mind by whatever means that you as an individual require.


For me, playing the drums is, I would say, my most "spiritual" activity.
When I bang those things, it can literally feel like a "cleansing" in my head.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I was just using his own words in order to make a point by contrast.
In fact, I took his "inbred" to mean as a kind of value that's been "bred" into you during upbringing to the point that it becomes a natural reflex. And to that extent, I actually agree.

Many people grow up thinking superstition is a path to truth because the environment they grew up in treated it as such.

That's certainly a fair enough response...can't really argue with that! We ARE indeed, products of our environment and upbringing.....that is, UNTIL we reach a point in our lives when it IS ok to question some of that stuff and its actual veracity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think I'ld be consumed by guilt and empathy. I'ld be extremely uncomfortable and find myself in a serious ethical and moral crisis.

Well, I'm sorry you are having problems.
I don't believe that those who are fortunate enough to be in paradise will have any problems. They wouldn't be in "that state of being" if they did.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hmmmmm, the way I see it, when you die, you are DEAD, and the DEAD are unaware of ANYTHING.

Your soul is lying to you. Don't let it.