Believers should not feel intimidated by so called experts on religion

[MyM]

I'm saying per Quran, the true experts are Mohamad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and 9 leaders that are the offspring of Hussain (peace be upon them all).

Other people are not to say "reverentially follow us", in fact believers been forbidden to say this per Quran.

hmm I believe a little differently but we agreed to disagree

 

[Vinayaka]

I have a moderate Kindle digital library with many scriptures from most religions. That would include many different translations of books like the Quran because not all translations include all the meanings. The same with the Bible, Gita, Vedas, Upanishads, Mahabharata and many other books such as history, the mind, meditation etc It’s not massive but it’s a start and along with meditation, reflection and action helps me learn a thing or two.

Oh. So you're saying you lied in Post 4 where you said you own ALL the texts of all the religions and had read them all. Carry on then.

 

[MyM]

Thanks for acknowledging that believers feel intimidated by people who are better informed about religion. I take it this includes people who use reason and objectivity better as well?


This is a common denial by believers whose beliefs are being challenged successfully. It is called the Dunning Kruger Effect, where a lay person can deny and reject the expertise of another for no reason other than poorly informed beliefs.

Let's note that opinions are not bad, only poorly informed opinions are bad.


This strikes me odd when people who supposedly have some sort of deep and divine truth, but suffer from insecurity and doubts in debate. Part of a spiritual process is listening to doubts and insecurity because that is the subconscious trying to tell the conscious mind their beliefs are not quite right. This is the inner conflict and turmoil that irrational belief can cause to a mind that is rational and open minded. Your suggestion here is to close the mind to discussion. It is to retreat into ideology and fear to protect ideas that are comfortable, but also unsatisfying in some way.

The path to truth may be realizing that the greed for truth and belief IS what keeps a person for having it. The more you strive for the truth the farther you get from it. That is how fear works on the mind. It prevents a whole wisdom that includes reason.

In Islam, Allah says,
“Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided”[an-Nahl 16:125].

In Islam, there is a saheeh (correctly authenticated) hadith that, was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allah pbuh said: “Whoever seeks knowledge in order to show off before the scholars or to argue with the foolish or to attract people’s attention, Allah will admit him to Hell.” Narrated by Ibn Maajah (260)

In Islam, we are to behave and seek knowledge. We are never to stop seeking that knowledge for Islam is an extremely vast religion filled with so much knowledge still in our lifetime we would not be able to finish.

In Islam, the more you study, the more you learn, the more you do good deeds and do righteous by them, the more you seek out Allah's forgiveness is better for you. It is actually a mercy.

The scholars of ahadith, Quran, fiqh and other areas of learning, they are humble and they must need to fit the criteria of Islam.

And Allah knows best


May Allah keep us guided to the straight path ameen.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh. So you're saying you lied in Post 4 where you said you own ALL the texts of all the religions and had read them all. Carry on then.

I believe I possess the main scriptures of all the major religions. I have studied them all in depth but don’t know everything and never will.

I was honest and truthful.

 

[F1fan]

In Islam, Allah says,
“Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided”[an-Nahl 16:125].

In Islam, there is a saheeh (correctly authenticated) hadith that, was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allah pbuh said: “Whoever seeks knowledge in order to show off before the scholars or to argue with the foolish or to attract people’s attention, Allah will admit him to Hell.” Narrated by Ibn Maajah (260)

In Islam, we are to behave and seek knowledge. We are never to stop seeking that knowledge for Islam is an extremely vast religion filled with so much knowledge still in our lifetime we would not be able to finish.

In Islam, the more you study, the more you learn, the more you do good deeds and do righteous by them, the more you seek out Allah's forgiveness is better for you. It is actually a mercy.

The scholars of ahadith, Quran, fiqh and other areas of learning, they are humble and they must need to fit the criteria of Islam.

And Allah knows best


May Allah keep us guided to the straight path ameen.

Assuming Allah exists, and all the advice you follow is rational.

Why do you need to follow a religion at all? Do you not feel as if you can direct your own life?

 

[Vinayaka]

I believe I possess the main scriptures of all the major religions. I have studied them all in depth but don’t know everything and never will.

I was honest and truthful.

This is what you said, "I possess all the Holy Books of all the religions and Sufi writings too and I accept the truth in them ..."

'All' becomes 'main'. By the way, my main scriptures, besides my Guru's writings, are the Thirumanthiram, and Thirukkural. Various sects of Hinduism have different scriptures. So too with Buddhism. The Vedas are accepted by all, and would not only be incredibly long, but also quite boring. Very few Hindus have read much of them at all. The Mahabharata is an epic story, the Gita is an excerpt from that.

The fact of the matter is you know very little about some religions, and continue to insist you do, discrediting yourself over and over. As another person has indicated, a first step towards realty on the topic would be to admit how little you know, not falsely brag how much you know. But that doesn't seem likely at this stage of the game.

Here's a list of Hindu texts. List of Hindu texts - Wikipedia
Depending on sects, importance is given to different ones.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is what you said, "I possess all the Holy Books of all the religions and Sufi writings too and I accept the truth in them ..."

'All' becomes 'main'. By the way, my main scriptures, besides my Guru's writings, are the Thirumanthiram, and Thirukkural. Various sects of Hinduism have different scriptures. So too with Buddhism. The Vedas are accepted by all, and would not only be incredibly long, but also quite boring. Very few Hindus have read much of them at all. The Mahabharata is an epic story, the Gita is an excerpt from that.

The fact of the matter is you know very little about some religions, and continue to insist you do, discrediting yourself over and over. As another person has indicated, a first step towards realty on the topic would be to admit how little you know, not falsely brag how much you know. But that doesn't seem likely at this stage of the game.

Here's a list of Hindu texts. List of Hindu texts - Wikipedia
Depending on sects, importance is given to different ones.

Of course my knowledge is minuscule. A thousand lifetimes could not even touch the surface. There is much, much more I need to learn despite much study. I’m sorry you feel this way. Of all people here I am the most imperfect.

All I have ever really stated is that the Promised One Baha’u’llah has appeared with a solution for todays problems and that I believe His teachings are perfect.

As to myself, I am nothing. You see many faults in me and that I am very imperfect and of course I fully agree. I am trying to learn to improve and I often fail but I still get up and try again.

I sincerely thank you for pointing out my faults because that will help me hopefully to become better.

 

[firedragon]

A religious person who hold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion....there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

An expert has an opinion, thats all.
Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone
They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

Not really. Sometimes they have manuscripts that have a dating. Its not just an opinion.

Whats important is to not just appeal to authority. Whats important is to know the method. I know sometimes its difficult to know the method, but if one goes cherry picking so called experts randomly just to support an already existing view of his, that's hypocrisy.

So if we are to leave experts alone, we should do that with every expert in everything. Cherry picking who we like based on what we want is kind of absurd.

 

[stevecanuck]

A religious person who hold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion....there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

An expert has an opinion, thats all.
Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone
They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

You misrepresent the nature of challenges made to adherents of religion. When a believer makes a statement about their religion, and then he's challenged, it's not about "opinion". Specific verses are always cited as the basis for the challenge.

 

[firedragon]

I'm saying per Quran, the true experts are Mohamad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and 9 leaders that are the offspring of Hussain (peace be upon them all).

Other people are not to say "reverentially follow us", in fact believers been forbidden to say this per Quran.

• What is your methodology of assessing who are the "truer experts"?
• Who's standard, whats the chain, whats the source, whats the dating of the source?

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

I have a moderate Kindle digital library with many scriptures from most religions. That would include many different translations of books like the Quran because not all translations include all the meanings. The same with the Bible, Gita, Vedas, Upanishads, Mahabharata and many other books such as history, the mind, meditation etc It’s not massive but it’s a start and along with meditation, reflection and action helps me learn a thing or two.

In my entire life, I have only known one scholar, retired now, 70 years of age I think who has knowledge in the Qur'an, Bible, Tipitaka, and the Hindu scripture. I have not known a single person who has studied all the books you mentioned. You one day claimed you have studied the Buddhist scripture.

IN my opinion, this is the greatest achievement I can think of. Amazing.

 

[firedragon]

The scholars of ahadith, Quran, fiqh and other areas of learning, they are humble and they must need to fit the criteria of Islam.

Its true that the earliest scholars of Fiqh like Malik Ibn Annas and Abu Hanifa were humble. No question about it. There are some modern day scholars though who can be not so humble. There are people like that. And most of the Anti Islamic polemicists on the internet use them for their fallacies. Today.

 

[RestlessSoul]

In every field, there are experts with years of study and practice behind them, and then there are self appointed experts. The latter have proliferated in the age of Google, and often make the most noise.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You misrepresent the nature of challenges made to adherents of religion. When a believer makes a statement about their religion, and then he's challenged, it's not about "opinion". Specific verses are always cited as the basis for the challenge.

Spiritual practice is a personal path/way of life.
If you disagree with any religious scripture that is not my concern. To know each word as word, but never practice the word that does not lead to wisdom.

There are some very wise Spiritual people who never read a word, but when you checkhow they live, they live according to the book. They have it naturarly within them.

A book is only a tool.

 

[firedragon]

I believe I possess the main scriptures of all the major religions. I have studied them all in depth but don’t know everything and never will.

I was honest and truthful.

Studied them all "in-depth"? Thats pretty amazing. I mean you are probably the only one I can think of who has studied them all in depth. Even Hindu scholars do not claim they have studied their own scripture in depth. Because it is so vast. But most of them actually have studied but their own scripture only. Still they have the humility to say that they have not. In Islam, the general reality is that just to give an opinion in theology, the person studies for about 10 years. It is so vast. I mean this is just to give a theological opinion. that's it. YOU on the other hand is miraculous. You have studied "everything".

 

[Clara Tea]

A religious person who hold a personal belief in any religion or spiritual teaching, has no reason to feel intimidated by a socalled expert on religion....there is not one answer fits all when it comes to spiritual practice.

An expert has an opinion, thats all.
Let them have their opinion, and the best part, just leave them alone
They try to tell you "you don't know your own personal belief" that is hilerious.

God said "thou shalt not kill," and "turn the other cheek." Reverend John Hagee said that we need to pray to Jesus to win the war in Iraq. Revelation said that if we fight Iraq, we will incur God's vengeance (example: Revelation 15 of the New Testament Christian bible says that God will make 7 plagues if we attack Iraq).

God and Reverend Hagee disagreed.

God knows everything, and God knows the future. Which one do we trust? God or Hagee?

Reverend Hagee had advanced degrees in theology. He was educated at a fine university. He was a biblical scholar. Yet, Hagee defied God.

I must agree with you that we shouldn't feel cowed by religious experts.

I recommend that everyone read the bible for themselves. Also, seek out the original meanings of the scriptures in their original languages, and make sure that the translations are right. We know that there are numerous flaws in the bible, where the bible contradicts itself. Example:
Gen 1:25: Man was created before animals.
Gen 2:18: Man was created after animals.

The many versions of the bible disagree on many points.

 

[Clara Tea]

They dont bother me personally anymore, but did greatly in the past.

I used to have 8-10 people on my ignore list, but I found it to be wrong to do it, better to face them on their own methods.

The wrong must ignore.

 

[Clara Tea]

Salam

I think debating is healthy. I use to argue against Islam for years against Shiachat.com. Over time, I came back to Islam.

If I kept the problems in my head, none of them would be solved.

This is why atheists should be welcome in religious forums. Eventually they will learn the scriptures, and they might convert.

On the other hand, atheists might convert theists. They form stronger ideas as they debate, and these ideas forge character.

Jews were tortured to death by Nazis and had refused to give up their religions. Jews traditionally argue loudly over religion, even with other Jews. This strengthened their beliefs (or changed them).

 

[Clara Tea]

Discussion is never a problem it is the way it is done, that sometimes is very wrong. Especially when a non believer telling believers what they should or should not believe in a personal belief.

Or, vice versa, the believer telling a non-believer that they will burn in hell. Of the two, I've heard more talk about hell.

 

[Clara Tea]

I largely agree with this. As a non-believer, my perspective is that all religious artifacts(?), e.g. scripture and rituals and so on, are man-made. A person can certainly become an expert in these artifacts, but the artifacts are distinct from what any individual believer believes.

I do think it's perilous for one human to claim to know "the word of god". That almost always goes badly.

God sent prophets to war us not to attack Iraq (that is what Revelation is all about, in the Christian bible). Modern prophets agree with Revelation. These prophets were ordered by God. Therefore, they certainly know the word of God. Badly or not, God wants the world warned not to attack Iraq.